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  • The Views of the Third Hero, End Times Style!

    Okay, the inspiration came from my last thread, and I hope that for thosee who do not understand where I come from on half of these post, I want to clear things up.

    My view hinges on a few things.

    1. The Believers being prepared to face the enemy face to face
    2. The belief that the entire bible, when it comes to the end times, has things orchestrated into a certain, visible sequence that is easier to follow that what many pundits have perpetuated in the last 2000 years.
    3. That God will fulfill every last promise that He has made.

    That is the nutshell of what I believe. Now for the nutcracker... Sorry St Nick, but I felt this pun was appropriate.

    Let's start with the sequence of events leading up to the return of the Lord.

    It is my belief that all of the events that lead up to the Lord's return hinge on Matthew 24:3-31, 25:31-46. This, I believe, is the whole story of the return of the Lord. Everything else that I say is due to this overriding belief that I have.

    Now, in Matthew 24, we have the birth pangs and the persecutions of the believers, which no one in here questions. What get's interesting is what happens starting at verse 15.

    The Abomination that causes desolation.

    I wanted to understand where this comes from and why it is significant to the end times signs that Jesus taught the disciples. And so I looked at Daniel 9:27, and found that the Abomination that causes desolation, in so many words, (Daniel needed to learn to say things without using so many words.. jeez my head hurts just thinking about all of the words he used), is there. And so, because that verse was tied to the whole Seventy Weeks thing, I decided to investigate that as well.

    And so, after reading Daniel 9:24-27, I came to this conclusion.

    1. the Seventy weeks are directly tied to the Return of the Lord
    2. In order to proclaim the seventy weeks complete, all of the things listed in verse 24 must be fulfilled.

    I know this will be lengthy, but I have a point to make, and thus it will take a little while. Sorry.

    This leads me to this point, Jerusalem. One of the requirements of the seventy weeks was that everlasting righteousnessis to be brought into Jerusalem. This caused me to ask this one question:

    Is there any other verse that says that righteousness is to be brought into Jerusalem? The answer surprised me. I found a few. One of those passages was psalm 2. This gives us a picture of the one called the Son of God ruling the entire world from God's holy Mountain, mount Zion. We all know that Zion is fond in Jerusalem. Then Zechariah 14, which was actually the first verse that I had found on this subject, which stated that the King of Kings will be ruling the world from Jerusalem, and the remnant of the nations will have to go up to Jerusalem year by yeay to worship Him at the feast of tabernacles. And thus, I found more verses saying roughly the same thing concerning Jerusalem and righteousness being brought into it.

    And so, because I did not factor Revelation into the equation as of yet, I figured that if all of these prophets are saying that the Lord, who is of the seed of David, who is called by God the FAther, His Son, who was named after Joshua, (Yeshua) was to rule over all of the world through Jerusalem.

    In truth, this is the basis for which I accept the label, Premil, Because although they get a lot of the details wrong, like Christ only ruling for 1000 years, (BTW, for those who did not know already, I believe that Christ's reign is infinite, and it will not stop just because Satan is released. Not even heaven and earth will outlast the reign of Christ), they incorporate the idea of Christ ruling the world from Jerusalem.

    Now, what do I believe when it comes to the period of time in which Christ rules all of mankind....(man that sounds suspicious, becasue He is already ruling Tenchi from the right hand of His Father right now. BTW I will be using that word, tenchi, quite a bit, because it is the Japanese word for "heaven and earth"), that is to say, when Christ returns and takes over the earth, tyrannical style, I believe that these things will happen.

    1. The armies of the world, and the kings of the world, will be destroyed. Period. No survivors
    2. Those with the Mark of the beast who did not participate in the battle at armageddon will recieve a plague that will kill them all.
    3. Jesus will then rule the entire world, from the place where David once called his kingdom, Jerusalem.
    4. Satan will be imprisoned (which is so premillish, I know)
    5. The beast and the false prophet are destroyed in the lake of fire
    6. earth willl experience a peace that it has never experienced since the fall of Adam
    7. And let's not forget, that the Tribulation saints who died at the hands of the beast will be resurrected, and will rule with Christ until the destruction of tenchi.

    I think I am running out of space, and so, another post is required.

  • #2
    I'm sorry about this, but for all of the amils and premils that I have ticked off during my stay here, this is your chance to know what I know, and thus use it either to benefit yourself, or against me.

    Now, by now I believe that I have covered the whole reason why I side with the premils concerning the time of Christ's reing on earth, although I still stress that it is a lot longer than 1000 years. Now, I am going to show you why I believe as I do.

    IN Matthew 25:31-46, we find the nations being judged, mainly because He says it in verse 31. He separates the "righteous" nations from the "wicked" ones. NOw, notice the wording in the subsequent verses. Their judgment is based on their treatment of his brethern, the saints. Notice verse 40.

    And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

    And so, as Matthew 25:31 states, when the Lord returns with power and gret Glory, he establishes his seat,and judges the nations, based solely on their treatment of the believers.

    But, I skippped a few steps. Let's go back to the moment that the Lord returns. This one is really interesting.

    Here is what I see, moment by moment, the events that happen during the return of the Lord.

    1. The sun, moon and stars go black. (we agree on this one David)
    2. Jesus shines from the gate of Heaven.
    3. He picks up the remaining faithful and resurrects the tribulation saints (I know you will ahve something to say on the tribulation saints part)
    4. The kings of the world, at the prompting of Satan, the Beast and the false prophet will be awaiting their doom at the valley of Megiddo.
    5. Jesus issues the command, while in the air, for the angels and saints to destroy the kings of the world... (I am a little unsure on whether the saints participate in that slaughter or not), giving the definition of the sword in his mouth, literally, the command to destroy them.
    6. The birds will gorge themselves with the flesh of all of the slain in the valley.

    At the same time, these things are happening.
    1. The mountains are being shaken to extiction by means of the Great earthquake of the seventh vial.
    2. Along with the mountains disappearing, so are the islands of the sea,
    3. The survivors of these catastrophies are pelted with 100lb hailstones.

    Needless to say, there is a great amount of death that accompanies the return of the Lord. From there we have the setting up of Christ's Kingdom on earth, with whole nations.... well, whoever's left from those nations, being judged, based on their treatment of the saints while they were on earth.

    Now I know that you are going to ask this question, or at least a variation of it. "Are you implying that there willl be survivors, or otherwise people still standing after the Lord returns?" No, I am not implying it. I am outright stating that to be the case. Here is why.

    I read Daniel 7, and some very interesting similarities to the return of the Lord jumped off of the pages, and I certainly could not ignore them. One of the similarities is the fact that Daniel uses the same term that Jesus used when talking about himself, the Son of Man. In fact, Jesus called Himself the Son of man more than any other title. I would even go so far as to say that that was the only title He gave Himself, the Son of man.

    In Daniel 7, we have the exact same scenario of the Great Tribulation, with the little horn making proclamations and for his effort, being sent to the "consumming flame". But before he gets what's coming to him, he wages a war against the believers, and defeats them. But afterwards, the "Son of Man" comes in clouds of heaven, as the Ancient of Dys came down and judged the nations. But that's not all. There are people who are being judged, and they bring the Son of Man to stand before the Ancient of days, as though He will vouch for them. (Sorry, I know that was my interpretation just then, but it seemed that way). As a result, judgment is given to the saints, and the Son of Man is given "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed." (verse 14)

    But that's not all. In this chapter,we have the judgment of the wicked here as well. Take a look at verses 11-12. We find that the beast from the abyss is thrown into the all-consumming fire, but the rest of the beast has it's authority stripped from him, but was allowed to live for a season. what is the rest of the beast? Well, I figure that the rest of the beast is nothing short of the inhabitants of the kingdom of the beast.

    But if this was the only place where there is mentioned to possibly be survivors of the return, then I wouldn't have much of a case. But there is more, and thus I am again, running out of space. And so another post is required.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by third hero View Post
      Okay, the inspiration came from my last thread, and I hope that for thosee who do not understand where I come from on half of these post, I want to clear things up.

      It is my belief that all of the events that lead up to the Lord's return hinge on Matthew 24:3-31, 25:31-46.
      I almost agree with you.
      or
      I agree with the parts that we agree with 100%.
      or
      I agree with you on the parts that are intended to describe the Lord's return.
      or
      ....let me say it another way.

      Back in my Dispensational Premill days, I took all of Matthew 24:3-25:46 as one great big endtime picture.

      When I found myself leaving Premill, and venturing into what became the Amill view, I found that entire block of passages were viewed differently.

      Similarly, when I looked at anything written prior to the 19th century, I found this block of passages completely viewed differently than I had known them as a Dispensational Premill guy.

      I also met folks along the way who took this block, and put all of it in the 1st century. (Yes, you Rommie....among others).

      When I began to spend more time with this block of passages, I found something quite interesting.

      1) You have go back and start with the end of Chapter 23 to get the context.
      2) When you look at the end of Chapter 23's context, and the end of Chapter 25's context....they are adressing two different things, and two different events.
      3) How is this reconciled?
      • Jesus was asked two questions in Matthew 24:3....and
      • all of Matthew 23 answers the 1st question;
      • parts of Matthew 24 gives details about the answer to both questions, and
      • all of Matthew 25 gives details about the 2nd question.
      What were the two questions?

      Q1: When will these things be (the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem mentioned in Chapter 23)?
      Q2: When will be your second Coming return in power and glory (which Chapter 25 solely describes)?

      Chapter 24, is a blending passage that answers parts of both questions.

      I'll start a thread explaining my thoughts on this.





      Originally posted by third hero View Post
      And so, after reading Daniel 9:24-27, I came to this conclusion.

      1. the Seventy weeks are directly tied to the Return of the Lord
      2. In order to proclaim the seventy weeks complete, all of the things listed in verse 24 must be fulfilled.
      So when Jesus splits the Eastern Sky Wide-Open, in power and resplendent glory, riding on the clouds, accompanied by myriads of angels and an entire herd of white horses and riders.....

      At that point, do you believe the 70 weeks are completed and fulfilled?

      If not, when?


      Originally posted by third hero View Post
      Now, what do I believe when it comes to the period of time in which Christ rules all of mankind....(man that sounds suspicious, becasue He is already ruling Tenchi from the right hand of His Father right now. BTW I will be using that word, tenchi, quite a bit, because it is the Japanese word for "heaven and earth"), that is to say, when Christ returns and takes over the earth, tyrannical style, I believe that these things will happen.

      1. The armies of the world, and the kings of the world, will be destroyed. Period. No survivors
      So just before the 2nd Coming, don't join and army, and if you are wicked, don't be a King.....be a wicked prince, or a wicked queen, or a wicked commoner and you won't be destroyed....just don't be a King or a member of an army if you are wicked?

      Wicked Commoners are exempt from being destroyed.....

      Right?


      Originally posted by third hero View Post
      2. Those with the Mark of the beast who did not participate in the battle at armageddon will recieve a plague that will kill them all.
      So then, those who did not take the mark...they are survive....(if they aren't in an army and aren't a king)....Right?

      Why don't they get Raptured and Changed from mortal to immortal then?

      Or is there a special class of wicked mortals who aren't followers of Christ who merit special exemption from destruction at His return?

      How do they merit this special exemption? (Simply by not being a King, not being an army member, and not taking the Mark of the Beast)?


      Originally posted by third hero View Post
      3. Jesus will then rule the entire world, from the place where David once called his kingdom, Jerusalem.
      4. Satan will be imprisoned (which is so premillish, I know)
      5. The beast and the false prophet are destroyed in the lake of fire
      Originally posted by third hero View Post
      6. earth willl experience a peace that it has never experienced since the fall of Adam
      Does this peace include sinners still remaining and rebelling and disbelieving upon the Earth?
      There weren't rebels as the sands of the sea within the Garden of Eden....but there will be those found within this Earthen period right?




      Originally posted by third hero View Post
      7. And let's not forget, that the Tribulation saints who died at the hands of the beast will be resurrected, and will rule with Christ until the destruction of tenchi.

      I think I am running out of space, and so, another post is required.
      What is the difference between:
      1) A Tribulation Saint
      2) A Pre-Flood Saint
      3) A Pre-Law Saint
      4) A Regular O.T. Saint
      5) A Pre-Calvary N.T. Saint
      6) A Post-Calvary, Pre-Pentecost Saint
      7) A Post-Pentecost, Pre-Tribulation Saint
      8) A Millennium Saint

      (Be careful here Doug...I am trying to trick you within a Dispensational Trap here....but we know you aren't Dispensational, so don't let it get you!)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by third hero View Post
        I'm sorry about this, but for all of the amils and premils that I have ticked off during my stay here, this is your chance to know what I know, and thus use it either to benefit yourself, or against me.
        ASA....grab your Q38 space modulators quickly....Zan turn into an ice-bucket; Jana turn into a giant eagle....gleep, jump in the bucket.....and Marvin the Wonderdog? Oh, we sent him over to be a strategic member of the PSA.


        Originally posted by third hero View Post
        Now, by now I believe that I have covered the whole reason why I side with the premils concerning the time of Christ's reing on earth, although I still stress that it is a lot longer than 1000 years. Now, I am going to show you why I believe as I do.

        IN Matthew 25:31-46, we find the nations being judged, mainly because He says it in verse 31. He separates the "righteous" nations from the "wicked" ones. NOw, notice the wording in the subsequent verses. Their judgment is based on their treatment of his brethern, the saints. Notice verse 40.

        And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

        And so, as Matthew 25:31 states, when the Lord returns with power and gret Glory, he establishes his seat,and judges the nations, based solely on their treatment of the believers.
        Would the mistreatment of Abel, Noah, Lot, Gideon, John the Baptist, and Stephen...as well as Christians who died last year in Sudan be included in the believers who were mistreated?


        Originally posted by third hero View Post
        But, I skippped a few steps. Let's go back to the moment that the Lord returns. This one is really interesting.

        Here is what I see, moment by moment, the events that happen during the return of the Lord.

        1. The sun, moon and stars go black. (we agree on this one David)
        2. Jesus shines from the gate of Heaven.
        3. He picks up the remaining faithful and resurrects the tribulation saints (I know you will ahve something to say on the tribulation saints part)
        But what about all of the other saints wanting to be resurrected? Job wrote of it, Isaiah, Daniel, Paul....do they miss the resurrection here?



        Originally posted by third hero View Post
        4. The kings of the world, at the prompting of Satan, the Beast and the false prophet will be awaiting their doom at the valley of Megiddo.
        If there are some armies garrisoned in Libya, Sweden, Norway, Bolivia....will they too suffer doom because they are armies; or are only the armies in Megiddo doomed?




        Originally posted by third hero View Post
        5. Jesus issues the command, while in the air, for the angels and saints to destroy the kings of the world... (I am a little unsure on whether the saints participate in that slaughter or not), giving the definition of the sword in his mouth, literally, the command to destroy them.
        6. The birds will gorge themselves with the flesh of all of the slain in the valley.

        At the same time, these things are happening.
        1. The mountains are being shaken to extiction by means of the Great earthquake of the seventh vial.
        2. Along with the mountains disappearing, so are the islands of the sea,
        3. The survivors of these catastrophies are pelted with 100lb hailstones.

        Needless to say, there is a great amount of death that accompanies the return of the Lord. From there we have the setting up of Christ's Kingdom on earth, with whole nations.... well, whoever's left from those nations, being judged, based on their treatment of the saints while they were on earth.

        Now I know that you are going to ask this question, or at least a variation of it. "Are you implying that there willl be survivors, or otherwise people still standing after the Lord returns?" No, I am not implying it. I am outright stating that to be the case. Here is why.

        I read Daniel 7, and some very interesting similarities to the return of the Lord jumped off of the pages, and I certainly could not ignore them. One of the similarities is the fact that Daniel uses the same term that Jesus used when talking about himself, the Son of Man. In fact, Jesus called Himself the Son of man more than any other title. I would even go so far as to say that that was the only title He gave Himself, the Son of man.

        In Daniel 7, we have the exact same scenario of the Great Tribulation, with the little horn making proclamations and for his effort, being sent to the "consumming flame". But before he gets what's coming to him, he wages a war against the believers, and defeats them. But afterwards, the "Son of Man" comes in clouds of heaven, as the Ancient of Dys came down and judged the nations. But that's not all. There are people who are being judged, and they bring the Son of Man to stand before the Ancient of days, as though He will vouch for them. (Sorry, I know that was my interpretation just then, but it seemed that way). As a result, judgment is given to the saints, and the Son of Man is given "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed." (verse 14)
        I thought the Son of Man went to the Ancient of Days, (not came down from), in that Daniel passage....showing a prophecy of Christ coming to bring the kingdom to all the world as He did 2000 years ago. Didn't Christ ascend to the Ancient of Days on the clouds then? Didn't Christ establish His eternal Kingdom then? Aren't people from all nations and tongues and tribes serving him now as that Kingdom continues to grow?



        Originally posted by third hero View Post
        But that's not all. In this chapter,we have the judgment of the wicked here as well. Take a look at verses 11-12. We find that the beast from the abyss is thrown into the all-consumming fire, but the rest of the beast has it's authority stripped from him, but was allowed to live for a season. what is the rest of the beast? Well, I figure that the rest of the beast is nothing short of the inhabitants of the kingdom of the beast.
        I thought the 4th beast in Daniel 7 was the Roman empire....which Christianity did triumph over, and now no longer exists.


        Originally posted by third hero View Post
        But if this was the only place where there is mentioned to possibly be survivors of the return, then I wouldn't have much of a case. But there is more, and thus I am again, running out of space. And so another post is required.

        I would really like to know what merits these survivors to get their "exemption from destruction cards"....
        You know the guys who died in the flood are gonna be upset...that some of them didn't get to be exempt....but at the final and clymactic Glorious Appearing, evidently a bunch of wicked people get exemptions...(well...not really clymactic....just another blip on the timeline of historical events)....

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm back, and I am going to be late for work.... I need to get up away from this computer......

          Oh well, shall we continue?

          I found in Zechariah 14 this scenario:

          Starting at verse 5, The Lord returns... although the actual wording is that the Lord comes. Verses 6-8 deal with the lighting, which is exactly as proclaimed by Lord Jesus in Matthew 24. Verse 9 says this, and I could not ignore it.

          And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

          That jumped rioght off of the page and plastered itself onto the lenses of my eyes. This is saying that the Lord will rule the entire earth, and not just in the sense that He is today. oh no, another tangeant.

          The lord says on many occasions that Tenchi is His and everything in it. This is true, and in fact, no one can debate that. However, God delegated the authority of the earth to Adam, who lost his authority when he gave it over to Satan at the fall. It is my belief that Satan uses this authority to make claims on the earth, as though it is his. The earth is the Lord's but Satan has control over the men of the nations, no thanks to ADAM, and thus God does not have complete and total "hands-on" control of the earth. (see Matthew 4 for clarification.)

          Now, getting right back on board, we find in Zechariah the Lord coming, and taking over the stewardship of the earth. In this passage, we have the nations in a state of confusion, and a plague hits them. This plague causes the flesh to rot while they are yet living. All of the while, Zechariah states that Jerusalem will no longer be destroyed, but safely inhabited, with the Lord ruling from there forever. In that same passage, we find that the nations, the remnants of those nations, are to send representatives to Jerusalem, to worship the King of Kings at the feast of tabernacles. (I know you noticed that I have stated this verse a lot, David). The same passage gives a direct reference to Egypt, and telling us that this is how Egypt will become desolate. Egypt is not in heaven, the last time I checked, and this confirmed to me that not only are there survivors of the nations that attacked Jerusalem, but that Egypt is one of the surviving nations that will bite the dust later on during the reign of the King of Kings.

          so, up to now, we see the Lord ruling over the nations from Jerusalem. Another question that i would like to answer is this:

          Why would Jesus come to earth and spare some people and rule them from the earth?

          I believe that this is directly tied to the promise that God gave David. I believe that the whole reason why Christ has to return to the earth, instead of blowing it all up, is because His Father made a promise to David, that one of his seed will sit in His seat, and rule the entire world forever. If Jesus comes and destroys the entire world, then He will never have sat in David's throne, and thus the promise is broken. Therefore, I believe that the reason for the Lord returning to earth, and not merely destroying it, is so that He can rule the entire earth from Jerusalem, and fulfill the promise that God gave to David.

          Now, what do I believe will be going on during this time? Well, David, I think you already know wht I believe. And coincidently enough, it is exactly why you do not follow the premil POV. I believe that sin will still be present in the world, although not very tolerated. I believe that death will still be present, although the Lord will be working towards destroying him. I believe that the Tribulation Saints will be ruling the world with Christ, and frankly will not have the same pleasure as the rest of the believers, who can rest and sit there awaiting their gift of Eternal life and New Jerusalem. I believe that mankind will be ruled harshly by Jesus Christ, and those who anger him, like it is stated in Psalm 2, will perish quickly. I believe that the life of a man will be extended, mainly because of Isaiah 65:20, and I believe that Christ will work towards destroying all that is not of God.

          Afterwards, I believe that after 1000 years, the great evil known as Satan will be released from His prison, and he will attempt to mess everything up. He will deceive the nations once again, but unlike the current era, he will not have much time, because the Lord's temper will be very short. They will assemble outside Jerusalem, and then the end will come. Satan will not be able to control the events of th earth, but rather he will try to secretly start an uprising, where the people will rebel against Lord Jesus, to their own doom, I might add.

          Form here comes the Judgment seat, where tenchi is destroyed, and all of mankind must face Him. The righteous are given admission to New Jerusalem, and the wicked are exterminated.

          I believe that from that point onward, we are in agreement, right David?

          Well, everyone, this is what I believe will happen during the reign of Lord Jesus on earth. For the record, these things will not happen.

          1. sacrificing, which did no good before Christ died, and especially does no good afterward.
          2. any saint that missed the "rapture"
          3. No infant deaths. The earliest that a person will die during this period will be 100 years, as Isaiah 65 mandates.

          What does this mean? Well, it means that there may end up being a period in time before the destruction of tenchi whn mankind will not be thinking about having kids, since their lifespans will be so much longer. It also means that Christ will have some plan for those who live during this time to gain eternal life, which will probably be the same as it is for us with one big exception. With us, it requires faith. With them, it'll just require obedience, since God will be visible on earth, for all to see.

          Comment


          • #6
            I will answer all of those questions, when I get back from work tonight... or when I wake up tomorrow! I can't wait, I'm bouncing off of the walls here!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              I'm back, and I am going to be late for work.... I need to get up away from this computer......

              Oh well, shall we continue?

              I found in Zechariah 14 this scenario:

              Starting at verse 5, The Lord returns... although the actual wording is that the Lord comes.
              He sure did come....and walked on the Mount of Olives, according to John 8:1.


              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              Verses 6-8 deal with the lighting, which is exactly as proclaimed by Lord Jesus in Matthew 24. Verse 9 says this, and I could not ignore it.

              And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
              Sounds like the Great Commission and the gospel message going out into all nations of the world, and being received and believed by billions for the first time since the Earth was created.

              The same one Lord I believe in as my King here in the USA, is the same one Lord that people in Greenland, Belgium, Latvia, Uganda, Japan, Argentina, and Pango Pango all claim as their King!!!

              What a great fulfillment to Zechariah's hope!


              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              That jumped rioght off of the page and plastered itself onto the lenses of my eyes. This is saying that the Lord will rule the entire earth, and not just in the sense that He is today. oh no, another tangeant.
              Where did it equivocate on how the Lord would not rule as King??? I missed that tangent.


              Originally posted by third hero View Post

              Now, getting right back on board, we find in Zechariah the Lord coming, and taking over the stewardship of the earth.
              Kinda like He did here?

              Matthew 11:27 "All things are delivered unto me of my Father"

              Or like He did here?

              Ephesians 1:20 "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church"

              Or like He did here?

              Hebrews 2:7 "Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him"



              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              In this passage, we have the nations in a state of confusion, and a plague hits them. This plague causes the flesh to rot while they are yet living.
              Kinda like these people?

              Hebrews 6:8 "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. "

              or these?
              Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments...have mercy on me; for I am tormented in this flame. "


              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              All of the while, Zechariah states that Jerusalem will no longer be destroyed, but safely inhabited, with the Lord ruling from there forever.
              Kinda like this safely inhabited Jerusalem where the Lord rules forever?

              Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. "

              Or this safely inhabited Jerusalem where the Lord rules forever?

              Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect


              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              In that same passage, we find that the nations, the remnants of those nations, are to send representatives to Jerusalem, to worship the King of Kings
              Kinda like the inhabitants from these nations?

              Rev 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen."

              or the inhabitants from these nations?

              Rev 21:23 "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. "


              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              (I know you noticed that I have stated this verse a lot, David). The same passage gives a direct reference to Egypt, and telling us that this is how Egypt will become desolate. Egypt is not in heaven, the last time I checked, and this confirmed to me that not only are there survivors of the nations that attacked Jerusalem, but that Egypt is one of the surviving nations that will bite the dust later on during the reign of the King of Kings.
              Even though this passage says Egypt bites the dust at the 2nd Coming?

              Joel 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of ****tim. Egypt shall be a desolation"



              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              so, up to now, we see the Lord ruling over the nations from Jerusalem.
              Yes, Heavenly Jerusalem...the only one that is or ever will be holy...until it descends to the New Earth.



              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              Another question that i would like to answer is this:

              Why would Jesus come to earth and spare some people and rule them from the earth?

              I believe that this is directly tied to the promise that God gave David. I believe that the whole reason why Christ has to return to the earth, instead of blowing it all up, is because His Father made a promise to David, that one of his seed will sit in His seat, and rule the entire world forever. If Jesus comes and destroys the entire world,
              What if he doesn't destroy it (like a big bomb), but rather, cleanses it in holy divine fire, removing the chaff, the tares, the sin, the death, the curse, and remakes it perfect, and sinless and knew....like the Garden of Eden days...but even better?

              Couldn't He fulfill his promise in that venue, as opposed to an Earth that is still plagued by sin and death and decay and rebellion?



              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              then He will never have sat in David's throne, and thus the promise is broken. Therefore, I believe that the reason for the Lord returning to earth, and not merely destroying it, is so that He can rule the entire earth from Jerusalem, and fulfill the promise that God gave to David.
              What is the throne of David?

              Is it a chair, or a position of Authority over God's people?



              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              Now, what do I believe will be going on during this time? Well, David, I think you already know wht I believe. And coincidently enough, it is exactly why you do not follow the premil POV. I believe that sin will still be present in the world, although not very tolerated.
              So sin will go into hiding then in this peaceful, perfect kingdom?
              Is that what you are saying? Underground sin?...as opposed to just ending it all together when Christ returns.



              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              I believe that death will still be present, although the Lord will be working towards destroying him.
              So the Lord has to work to destroy death over a lengthy period, and cannot just speak and death is defeated?

              Reminds me of when Jesus told Lazarus to come forth.

              The Resurrection of all humanity almost occurred then...did you know that?

              Because had Jesus just said, 'Come Forth', instead of 'Lazarus Come Forth', all of the graves would have heeded his command and came out.

              No, I can't believe that Jesus has to work at destroying death in the future...if he did any work to accomplish this; it was completed on the Cross....and death will be swallowed up in victory at the 2nd Coming, just as He said it would be.


              Isaiah 24:23 "Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously. O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth. For thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built. Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee. For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall. Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low. And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined. And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off ALL the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. "




              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              I believe that the Tribulation Saints will be ruling the world with Christ, and frankly will not have the same pleasure as the rest of the believers, who can rest and sit there awaiting their gift of Eternal life and New Jerusalem.
              When you say, 'Tribulation Saints' it sure reminds me of my old Dispensational days....can't help it.

              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              I believe that mankind will be ruled harshly by Jesus Christ, and those who anger him, like it is stated in Psalm 2, will perish quickly.
              But the ones who rejected Him prior to the 2nd Coming who get a 'do not perish' exemption card...right? They won't perish quickly....but get to continue sinning as long as they keep it private, underground, and not out in the open. Right?



              Originally posted by third hero View Post
              I believe that the life of a man will be extended, mainly because of Isaiah 65:20, and I believe that Christ will work towards destroying all that is not of God.
              So even though most of Revelation 21 is quoted in Isaiah 17-20, you still won't apply Isaiah 65:20 as being a metaphor of death being defeated...instead of extended???? When John quoted Isaiah 65:17-20, he quoted it almost verbatim and applied it to the New Earth and the New Jerusalem; except John replaced the difficult-to-grasp verse 20 death analogy with this easier phrase...."and there shall be no more death"

              I guess when God told Abraham that the age of man would not extend beyond 120, there will be more folks, in the future sin-suppressed kingdom, who will be exempt in a different way?

              Comment


              • #8
                TH, you may find this interesting:

                2 Chronicles 22:11-12,23:1-21
                But Jehoshabeath, the daughter of the king, took Joash (name means 'Fire of God') the son of Ahaziah, and stole him from among the king's sons that were slain, and put him and his nurse in a bedchamber. So Jehoshabeath, the daughter of king Jehoram, the wife of Jehoiada the priest, (for she was the sister of Ahaziah,) hid him from Athaliah, so that she slew him not. And he was with them hid in the house of God six years: and Athaliah reigned over the land.
                And in the seventh year Jehoiada strengthened himself, and took the captains of hundreds, Azariah the son of Jeroham, and Ishmael the son of Jehohanan, and Azariah the son of Obed, and Maaseiah the son of Adaiah, and Elishaphat the son of Zichri, into covenant with him. And they went about in Judah, and gathered the Levites out of all the cities of Judah, and the chief of the fathers of Israel, and they came to Jerusalem.
                And all the congregation made a covenant with the king in the house of God. And he said unto them, Behold, the king's son shall reign, as the LORD hath said of the sons of David. This [is] the thing that ye shall do;
                A third part of you entering on the sabbath, of the priests and of the Levites, [shall be] porters of the doors; And a third part [shall be] at the king's house; and a third part at the gate of the foundation: and all the people [shall be] in the courts of the house of the LORD.
                But let none come into the house of the LORD, save the priests, and they that minister of the Levites; they shall go in, for they [are] holy: but all the people shall keep the watch of the LORD.
                And the Levites shall compass the king round about, every man with his weapons in his hand; and whosoever [else] cometh into the house, he shall be put to death: but be ye with the king when he cometh in, and when he goeth out.
                So the Levites and all Judah did according to all things that Jehoiada the priest had commanded, and took every man his men that were to come in on the sabbath, with them that were to go [out] on the sabbath: for Jehoiada the priest dismissed not the courses.
                Moreover Jehoiada the priest delivered to the captains of hundreds spears, and bucklers, and shields, that [had been] king David's, which [were] in the house of God. And he set all the people, every man having his weapon in his hand, from the right side of the temple to the left side of the temple, along by the altar and the temple, by the king round about.
                Then they brought out the king's son, and put upon him the crown, and [gave him] the testimony, and made him king.
                And Jehoiada and his sons anointed him, and said, God save the king.
                Now when Athaliah heard the noise of the people running and praising the king, she came to the people into the house of the LORD:
                And she looked, and, behold, the king stood at his pillar at the entering in, and the princes and the trumpets by the king:
                and all the people of the land rejoiced, and sounded with trumpets, also the singers with instruments of musick, and such as taught to sing praise.
                Then Athaliah rent her clothes, and said, Treason, Treason.
                Then Jehoiada the priest brought out the captains of hundreds that were set over the host, and said unto them, Have her forth of the ranges: and whoso followeth her, let him be slain with the sword. For the priest said, Slay her not in the house of the LORD. So they laid hands on her; and when she was come to the entering of the horse gate by the king's house, they slew her there.
                And Jehoiada made a covenant between him, and between all the people, and between the king, that they should be the LORD'S people.
                Then all the people went to the house of Baal, and brake it down, and brake his altars and his images in pieces, and slew Mattan the priest of Baal before the altars.
                Also Jehoiada appointed the offices of the house of the LORD by the hand of the priests the Levites, whom David had distributed in the house of the LORD, to offer the burnt offerings of the LORD, as [it is] written in the law of Moses, with rejoicing and with singing, [as it was ordained] by David.
                And he set the porters at the gates of the house of the LORD, that none [which was] unclean in any thing should enter in. And he took the captains of hundreds, and the nobles, and the governors of the people, and all the people of the land, and brought down the king from the house of the LORD: and they came through the high gate into the king's house, and set the king upon the throne of the kingdom.
                And all the people of the land rejoiced: and the city was quiet, after that they had slain Athaliah with the sword.

                So the Restrained One tried to kill the King's Son, but He was hidden away for SIX years.
                In the SEVENTH year, the Priests and Levites are GATHERED from all quarters, and are TAKEN UP to the Holy City, and brought before the King, and they all get to see Him. Then they are stationed around Him.
                The rest of the people, who were not holy, remained, waiting for the appearing of His Coming.
                At the right time, the King's Son is Anointed, given the Testimony, and Crowned King.
                Then the people see the Sign of His Coming, and begin rejoicing, dancing, playing music, etc. and the Restrained One sees Him Coming, even standing by the piller.
                Then she, and all who followed her, and rounded up and destroyed.
                Then the Newly Anointed King enters in through the Gate, and takes His seat upon the Throne.
                And there is peace and quiet in the Kingdom.

                I already understand that amils will not agree with this assessment. That's okay. They are free to do that.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                  TH, you may find this interesting:

                  2 Chronicles 22:11-12,23:1-21
                  But Jehoshabeath, the daughter of the king, took Joash (name means 'Fire of God') the son of Ahaziah, and stole him from among the king's sons that were slain, and put him and his nurse in a bedchamber. So Jehoshabeath, the daughter of king Jehoram, the wife of Jehoiada the priest, (for she was the sister of Ahaziah,) hid him from Athaliah, so that she slew him not. And he was with them hid in the house of God six years: and Athaliah reigned over the land....<snip>

                  I already understand that amils will not agree with this assessment. That's okay. They are free to do that.
                  Why would amils not agree with this assessment?

                  It is a clear biblical record, and external historical fact that King Jehoram of Judah was married to Athaliah (daugther of King Ahab of Israel), during the time of the split Northern and Southern Kingdoms circa 840 B.C.

                  I've never heard of any amills not agreeing with their existence and the events of their reign, as described above in the history of the Chronicles of the Old Testament Kings of Israel and Judah found you listed above.


                  But the story doesn't end in verse 23:21 with the kingdom living peacefully in quiet happily ever after....continuing the story we see what else happened when Joash later after he was crowned king and began to make repairs to Solomon's Temple, but who eventually near his death, he turned to idolatry and worshipping other gods...even to the point of having Zechariah the prophet killed.

                  II Chronicles 24:1-7, 21-22 Joash was seven years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Zibiah of Beersheba.
                  24:2 And Joash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest.
                  24:3 And Jehoiada took for him two wives; and he begat sons and daughters.
                  24:4 And it came to pass after this, that Joash was minded to repair the house of the LORD.
                  24:5 And he gathered together the priests and the Levites, and said to them, Go out unto the cities of Judah, and gather of all Israel money to repair the house of your God from year to year, and see that ye hasten the matter. Howbeit the Levites hastened it not.
                  24:6 And the king called for Jehoiada the chief, and said unto him, Why hast thou not required of the Levites to bring in out of Judah and out of Jerusalem the collection, according to the commandment of Moses the servant of the LORD, and of the congregation of Israel, for the tabernacle of witness?
                  24:7 For the sons of Athaliah, that wicked woman, had broken up the house of God; and also all the dedicated things of the house of the LORD did they bestow upon Baalim.
                  24:20 And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.
                  24:21 And they conspired against him, and stoned him with stones at the commandment of the king in the court of the house of the LORD.


                  No, Amills really don't have any problems with this assessment from the Scriptures as they tell what happened to Jehoram, Athalia, Joash, and Zechariah in the mid 800s B.C.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                    TH, you may find this interesting:

                    2 Chronicles 22:11-12,23:1-21

                    [[Kahtar's Summary]]
                    So the Restrained One tried to kill the King's Son, but He was hidden away for SIX years.
                    In the SEVENTH year, the Priests and Levites are GATHERED from all quarters, and are TAKEN UP to the Holy City, and brought before the King
                    , and they all get to see Him. Then they are stationed around Him.
                    The rest of the people, who were not holy, remained, waiting for the appearing of His Coming.
                    At the right time, the King's Son is Anointed, given the Testimony, and Crowned King.
                    Then the people see the Sign of His Coming, and begin rejoicing, dancing, playing music, etc. and the Restrained One sees Him Coming, even standing by the piller.
                    Then she, and all who followed her, and rounded up and destroyed.
                    Then the Newly Anointed King enters in through the Gate, and takes His seat upon the Throne.
                    And there is peace and quiet in the Kingdom.

                    THe summary was great, but by leaving out all of the names, and only inserting pronouns in the summary, it makes it a little difficult to follow the text as it was given in 2 Chronicles.

                    Here is the Summary again, with the names added back in for clarity.


                    So the Restrained One(Queen Athaliah) tried to kill the King(Ahaziah)'s Son(Joash), but He(Joash) was hidden away (with his nurse) for SIX years.
                    In the SEVENTH year, the Priests and Levites are GATHERED from all quarters, and (5 people,
                    Azariah, Ishmael, Azariah, and Maaseiah, and Elishaphat) are TAKEN UP to the Holy City, and brought before the King(Ahaziah), and they all get to see Him(Ahaziah). Then they are stationed around Him(Ahaziah) The rest of the people, who were not holy, remained, waiting for the appearing of His Coming.
                    (Chapter Change to 23 after King Ahaziah does)
                    At the right time, the King
                    (Ahaziah)'s Son(Joash) is Anointed, given the Testimony, and Crowned King (Joash of the Southern Kingdom of Judah).
                    Then the people see the Sign of His
                    (Joash) Coming, and begin rejoicing, dancing, playing music, etc. and the Restrained One(moether Queen Athaliah) sees Him (Joash) Coming, even standing by the piller.Then she(Queen Athaliah), and all who followed her, and rounded up and destroyed.Then the Newly Anointed King(Joash) enters in through the Gate, and takes His(Joash) seat upon the Throne (of the Southern Kingdom of Judah)..And there is peace and quiet in the Kingdom(the Southern Kingdom of Judah).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by third hero View Post
                      ...when Christ returns and takes over the earth, tyrannical style, I believe that these things will happen… Jesus will then rule the entire world, from the place where David once called his kingdom, Jerusalem.
                      How does your premillennial viewpoint square with the fact that Jesus told us that true worshippers of God will never again need a temple in Jerusalem to worship God in "spirit and truth"? If Jesus reigns over the kingdoms of the world on His throne today at “God’s right hand” (and He does), then why do materialists insist that He must come back to a temple “made with hands” in earthy Jerusalem? Does Rev 20 teach that Jesus will reign for a literal 1000 year period from earthly Jerusalem? I think not.
                      Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4: 21-24)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thank you Dave for your lengthy, rather melodramatic way of saying 'I disagree with your assessment, I see no prophetic significance in this text'. You fulfilled my expections....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                          Thank you Dave for your lengthy, rather melodramatic way of saying 'I disagree with your assessment, I see no prophetic significance in this text'. You fulfilled my expections....
                          No melodrama, no disagreeing, and no mention of prophetic significance (by me or you either)


                          Sorry if including the names from the people discussed in 2 Chronicles took away from any of the significance of the passages... Gotta hate it when context gets in the way of great implications and hypothesi, Kahtar.



                          Perhaps we can get Doug's analysis of what the context of 2 Chronicles 22-24 is. Yeilding back to his thread.....

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Probably the same thing told to Matthew when he tried to use the story of Rachel crying for her children to portray Christ, I imagine. Context just gets in the way.
                            But you're correct, this is detracting from the OP, so, back on topic.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                              Thank you Dave for your lengthy, rather melodramatic way of saying 'I disagree with your assessment, I see no prophetic significance in this text'. You fulfilled my expections....
                              It does fit with the Pharisaical view of the Messianic kingdom though since they see that Messiah and a succession of his sons will rule. Joash after ruling peaceably for 40 yrs, was then slain by his servants. I wonder what prophetic significance that might have...
                              Robin

                              Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
                              And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
                              Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
                              Those who compromise with Christ’s enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

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