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  • the first beast's fatal head wound

    So I've discussed this before, but I'd like to pick it back up again, because I was really enjoying the dialogue, and definitely learning a lot (and I've learned a lot more since then)! In that thread that I linked to, I was presenting my belief that the second beast, not the first, in Rev. 13 is the Antichrist, and that the first is the demonic principality over the empire that the "lamb who spoke like a dragon" will rule.

    To recap (as that thread became rather long), my argument is based heavily on how principalities are established. A group of people in unity and in one location gather together with similar desires, and over that place is enthroned a principality. God does this in accordance with their asking. If their hearts are in love with God, these principalities will be elect angels; if they love darkness and hate the light, the principalities will be fallen angels. This is what we see in Rev. 13 with the first beast. A wicked people desire wicked things, and out of the sea comes the "ministering spirit" to "aid" them to receive that which they are asking for in greater measures. Then, these people enthrone a human to govern them - this is the second beast; the Antichrist. This is truly how it works, and understanding this is vital in understanding God's kingdom.

    One of the first descriptions given to this principality is that it is had a fatal head wound, but was now healed. Now, in Daniel we understand that the fourth beast is Rome, and yet is also an empire that will come in the days just prior to Jesus' return. We know that this is the same beast in two different time periods, because the angel tells us that there are only four beasts in the vision (Dan. 7:17). And yet we also know that following Rome came the Turkish Empire, being the seventh great empire to rule over Israel (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media / Persia, Greece, Rome) - the last before the beast empire was prophesied to emerge (the eighth empire - Rev. 17:11).

    And in Dan. ch.2, the idol had iron legs, yet it's feet were partly iron and partly clay. I believe that the feet, which were hit by the rock cut out not by man's hands, are this eighth empire. Yet in ch. 7 we're told that the last is also Rome... I believe that this is what is meant by "fatal head wound". Now, demons hate other demons. It's not like they all get along. They are united in goal, yet they do not "love" one another, nor can they love, as love comes from God. Each succeeding beast destroys the previous one.

    What I found interesting is that the last beast is seen with a fatal head wound. The principality over Rome's Empire was later replaced by the Ottoman Empire, who worshiped Allah. Allah commands beheadings! It is my belief that Rome's demonic principality was beheaded by the demon Allah, but will be healed, and come out from the sea yet again in the coming days. This is the "first beast" that John sees, the same that Daniel saw coming out from the sea made of iron, and different from all the ones before it. The "second beast" that John sees is the eleventh horn that Daniel saw - the Antichrist.

    What do you all think? - Lk.11
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  • #2
    Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    ...What I found interesting is that the last beast is seen with a fatal head wound. The principality over Rome's Empire was later replaced by the Ottoman Empire, who worshiped Allah. Allah commands beheadings! It is my belief that Rome's demonic principality was beheaded by the demon Allah, but will be healed, and come out from the sea yet again in the coming days. This is the "first beast" that John sees, the same that Daniel saw coming out from the sea made of iron, and different from all the ones before it. The "second beast" that John sees is the eleventh horn that Daniel saw - the Antichrist.

    What do you all think? - Lk.11
    “Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many anti-christs; whereby we know that it is the last hour” (1 John 2:18).
    Isn’t it fact that the NT does not talk about a “lone ranger” that rides up from the east by the name of “the Antichrist” who will rear his ugly head sometime in the twentieth-first century (or another century)? The Apostle plainly states that “many antichrists” had already walked the earth in his day (the first century). Just a thought.

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    • #3
      No, that's not fact, and it's really not the direction I desire this thread to go. Thank you for understanding... - Lk.11
      analyze. synthesize. repeat.

      *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

      Comment


      • #4
        Have you ever considered that scripture when talking about a wound on the head that was healed... that Yeshua was the one that was to crush the adversaries head, and the adversary was to strike His heel.

        I think it's possible we are making this more complicated than it needs to be. The adversaries headwound has been healing for the past 2000 years since Yeshua tried to crush his head. The beast is regaining composure. And while i believe there may be a man who will sport a physical headwound that was healed as a sign for us..... but i wouldn't necessarily wait on that to happen in order to know who the AC is.

        In all reality we will know the antichrist by what he will decree and ask us all to do, which will be contra the Word of God. It will be deception, that many will miss.

        Shalom,
        Tanja
        Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
        2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
        If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
        http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



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        • #5
          That is an interesting thought, but what I am having trouble with is that Jesus did not do anything to Satan that he will be healed of. The cruching of his head by Christ isn't going to be healed.


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          • #6
            quiet dove,

            can you please provide some scriptures to that end ?

            Shalom,
            Tanja
            Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
            2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
            If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
            http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



            Comment


            • #7
              I just consider the verses in Gen Messianic and what Jesus did as not being undoable. I mean Christ victory is not undoable. I know you believe that so not implying otherwise, so don't mistake me as making insinuations. What you said is an interesting thought but this is what came to me when I was thoughting about it.

              Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."



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              • #8
                Quiet dove,

                Well but that's just it, i was using the wrong word when i said "crush". Think about bruise... bruises last maybe a long time, but not forever.

                Yeshua won victory over death, but that sure didn't stop the adversary from continuing his deceptive work.
                We all know the adversary will not be eliminated totally until after the tribulation has started....

                I still think it's a very valid point.

                Shalom
                Tanja
                Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
                2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
                If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
                http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



                Comment


                • #9
                  It is
                  seven kings
                  five are fallen

                  the beast was and is of the seven

                  the beast will be given a kingdom by the ten horns

                  the beast is a person
                  a king
                  a former king
                  that gets his deadly wound healed

                  Nebuchadnezzar
                  http://prophecyinsights.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Clarification...

                    It's my fault really for not laying out clearly what it was that I was hoping to discuss in this thread, so instead of replying to some of the responses (which would only lead us further away), I'll just get right to clarifying that which I was desirous to dialogue about:

                    1) How are principalities put into power? Do you agree with what I had laid out? Why or why not?

                    2) Do demons get along together, or do they hate each other? Can Satan's kingdom truly stand?

                    3) What do you think about warring angels (elect and fallen) receiving battle wounds and needing healing?

                    4) If you agree with me that the first beast is the old Roman demonic principality (or any other demon, I guess), but disagree with my "Allah theory", what is your belief(s) about the meaning of his "fatal head wound" that became healed?

                    If you'd like to ask questions about if there is actually going to be one final "capital A" Antichrist, then feel free to start a new thread - you'll probably see me in there. Or if you would like to talk about why or why not you agree with me that the first beast is not the Antichrist, please do so on the link that I provided in my opening post (I may even bump that thread up myself with a summary post).

                    Thanks! - Lk.11
                    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

                    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Actually,...

                      Originally posted by vinsight4u8 View Post
                      It is
                      seven kings
                      five are fallen

                      the beast was and is of the seven

                      the beast will be given a kingdom by the ten horns

                      the beast is a person
                      a king
                      a former king
                      that gets his deadly wound healed

                      Nebuchadnezzar
                      ...If you bring Daniel into coincidence with Revelation, as I believe you must, the first beast-and probably the second- will not be allowed to lead in the normal way.
                      They will be followed in the world by imitation. That is, the world will believe their lies and follow their desires because of a twisted common sense, not because they are given real leadership positions.

                      DAN 11:21 And there shall stand up in his place one despised, and the kingly honour shall not be given him: and he shall come privately, and shall obtain the kingdom by fraud.
                      DAN 11:22 And the arms of the fighter shall be overcome before his face, and shall be broken; yea also the prince of the covenant. (Douay)
                      JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
                      JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
                        So I've discussed this before, but I'd like to pick it back up again, because I was really enjoying the dialogue, and definitely learning a lot (and I've learned a lot more since then)! In that thread that I linked to, I was presenting my belief that the second beast, not the first, in Rev. 13 is the Antichrist, and that the first is the demonic principality over the empire that the "lamb who spoke like a dragon" will rule.

                        To recap (as that thread became rather long), my argument is based heavily on how principalities are established. A group of people in unity and in one location gather together with similar desires, and over that place is enthroned a principality. God does this in accordance with their asking. If their hearts are in love with God, these principalities will be elect angels; if they love darkness and hate the light, the principalities will be fallen angels. This is what we see in Rev. 13 with the first beast. A wicked people desire wicked things, and out of the sea comes the "ministering spirit" to "aid" them to receive that which they are asking for in greater measures. Then, these people enthrone a human to govern them - this is the second beast; the Antichrist. This is truly how it works, and understanding this is vital in understanding God's kingdom.

                        One of the first descriptions given to this principality is that it is had a fatal head wound, but was now healed. Now, in Daniel we understand that the fourth beast is Rome, and yet is also an empire that will come in the days just prior to Jesus' return. We know that this is the same beast in two different time periods, because the angel tells us that there are only four beasts in the vision (Dan. 7:17). And yet we also know that following Rome came the Turkish Empire, being the seventh great empire to rule over Israel (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media / Persia, Greece, Rome) - the last before the beast empire was prophesied to emerge (the eighth empire - Rev. 17:11).

                        And in Dan. ch.2, the idol had iron legs, yet it's feet were partly iron and partly clay. I believe that the feet, which were hit by the rock cut out not by man's hands, are this eighth empire. Yet in ch. 7 we're told that the last is also Rome... I believe that this is what is meant by "fatal head wound". Now, demons hate other demons. It's not like they all get along. They are united in goal, yet they do not "love" one another, nor can they love, as love comes from God. Each succeeding beast destroys the previous one.

                        What I found interesting is that the last beast is seen with a fatal head wound. The principality over Rome's Empire was later replaced by the Ottoman Empire, who worshiped Allah. Allah commands beheadings! It is my belief that Rome's demonic principality was beheaded by the demon Allah, but will be healed, and come out from the sea yet again in the coming days. This is the "first beast" that John sees, the same that Daniel saw coming out from the sea made of iron, and different from all the ones before it. The "second beast" that John sees is the eleventh horn that Daniel saw - the Antichrist.

                        What do you all think? - Lk.11
                        I agree concerning the first beast and the second beast as you have stated;

                        In that thread that I linked to, I was presenting my belief that the second beast, not the first, in Rev. 13 is the Antichrist, and that the first is the demonic principality over the empire that the "lamb who spoke like a dragon" will rule.
                        Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
                        Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

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                        • #13
                          To understand what is meant by a "wound unto death" whose healing would spark the world wondering after the beast, let's take a closer look at the beast of Rev 13 and the beasts of Daniel 7.

                          Daniel writes about 4 beasts in Daniel 7.

                          The first is like a lion, and had eagle's wings. The eagle's wings are plucked from the lion and made to stand up like a man and a man's heart was given to it. I believe that this refers to two nations, one that is symbolized by a lion, and one that has two national symbols. The lion is likely Great Britain, the nation symbolized by the eagle and the man is the United States (both an eagle and Uncle Sam are often used to symbolize the United States).

                          The second beast is like to a bear. Russia is symbolized by a bear. This could represent Russia.

                          The third beast is a leopard with 4 heads and four wings of a fowl. The official symbol of Germany is a black eagle, its unofficial symbol is a leopard. 4 heads would represent four times that this nation has risen to power.

                          The fourth beast was the most terrifying to Daniel. It had 10 horns. This is the 10-nation union that the little horn (or Antichrist) is supposed to rise up from, speaking great things and making war against the saints and conquering them. In modern times, we don't know for sure who the 10-horned beast is quite yet, though the 10-member Western European Union is a possilbility.

                          Look at these beasts and at the beast of a Rev 13.

                          Lion - 1 head
                          Bear - 1 head
                          Leopard - 4 heads
                          10 horned beast - 1 head w/ 10 horns

                          The beast of Rev 13:1 is described as having 7 heads and 10 horns. In Rev 13:2 we see that it was like unto a leopard, with feet of a bear, and the mouth of a lion. The beast of Rev 13 is a composite beast of the beasts of Daniel 7. This composite beast has the power to make war against the saints and to conquer them (Rev 13:7).

                          Missing from the composite beast are the wings of the eagle, which are seen in Rev 12, giving aid to the woman in her flight. If the woman in Rev 12 is Israel, then there is the possibility that the United States remains her friend all the way through these things which must be hereafter.

                          Getting back on track to understanding the head that received a deadly wound that was healed, causing the world to wonder after the composite beast, one of the heads of that composite beast did receive a deadly wound and it was healed. In a Life Magazine article in 1968, George W. Ball (U.S. Under-Secretary of State), referred to the Berlin Wall as "the division that festers like a rusty knife wound". The USA Today called the Berlin Wall a "29-mile wound that won't heal" in August 1986. Time Magazine said on Nov 20, 1989 in an article titled, "Wall of Shame 1961-1989", "it was the most palpable evidence of a deep wound in European civilization - and it is finally gone."

                          The nearly fatal head wound suffered by the composite beast in Rev 13 appears to be the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989. Did the world wonder after the beast following the fall? Yes. Shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall, we heard people speaking of the now present possibility of a New World Order (President George H. Bush). In Sept 1991, Dick Cheney spoke of the world being in a "new era of promise that started two years ago with the collapse of the Berlin Wall."

                          I could be wrong, but this does appear to be the healing of a deadly wound that one of the heads of the beast of Rev 13 suffered.

                          Let me know what you think.

                          ServantoftheKing

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                          • #14
                            I think...

                            ...That the man with the healed deadly head wound is a real man, with a real wound.
                            JER 14:13 Then said I: 'Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them: Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.'
                            JER 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me: 'The prophets prophesy lies in My name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spoke I unto them; they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ServantoftheKing View Post
                              Daniel writes about 4 beasts in Daniel 7.

                              The first is like a lion, and had eagle's wings. The eagle's wings are plucked from the lion and made to stand up like a man and a man's heart was given to it.

                              I believe that this refers to two nations, one that is symbolized by a lion, and one that has two national symbols. The lion is likely Great Britain, the nation symbolized by the eagle and the man is the United States (both an eagle and Uncle Sam are often used to symbolize the United States).
                              SOF,

                              I want you to focus on a counterfeit to understand the identity of these animals. The counterfeit would not be to any worldly nation but to God and his kingdom. Understanding this then we see the following....

                              1. God's kingdom has 4 beasts as well. I believe they are or will be the kings of the earth in the eternal kingdom. Are these beasts ever mentioned by name or by country? No. Likewise these 4 are not named as they are part of a demonic kingdom set out to counterfeit the true pure kingdom.

                              2. We see this counterfeit in the first beast, the lion. We see a "lion" and "eagles wings" plus the fact that this beast was to stand upon feet and given a man's heart. Where in scripture do we also see a reference to a lion, eagles wings, man ect.... Jesus Christ.

                              So we see that this first beast starts out as a lion and has its wings plucked and comes to the ground (earth) and then is in the form of a man. Again likened unto Jesus Christ.

                              The "wings being plucked" is the reference to the head being wounded unto death. In chapter 12 we see Satan being wounded and is kicked out of heaven to the earth but then lives again which will be in the form of a man, the AC seen in the second beast of Rev 13. The wounded head is to the Lion but he will live again among his roots in the fourth animal beast as the little horn.

                              This senerio also highlights the beast which was (in heaven) and is not (in the earth) and yet is (back upon the earth).

                              The fourth beast was the most terrifying to Daniel. It had 10 horns. This is the 10-nation union that the little horn (or Antichrist) is supposed to rise up from, speaking great things and making war against the saints and conquering them. In modern times, we don't know for sure who the 10-horned beast is quite yet, though the 10-member Western European Union is a possilbility.

                              Look at these beasts and at the beast of a Rev 13.

                              Lion - 1 head
                              Bear - 1 head
                              Leopard - 4 heads
                              10 horned beast - 1 head w/ 10 horns

                              The beast of Rev 13:1 is described as having 7 heads and 10 horns.
                              I do applaud you seeing the 7 heads with the four beast which is correct. most try use all the kingdoms in Dan to come up the 7 heads.

                              Now if we continue with the counterfeit, what non wordly thing could represent the 10 horns. What do we see in God's kingdom which represents 10?

                              Well, right off the bat there appears to be not a clear match but if we reconize that between the first and second beasts of Rev 13 there are not 10 but 12 total horns. Um.... now were getting somewhere. 12 of course in God's kingdom are the 12 tribes of Israel but correctly divided into 10/2. The reason for the division in the beasts is that the second beast with the two horns represents the two tribes or the house of Judah whereby is the origin of true Messiah


                              Let me know what you think.

                              ServantoftheKing

                              The AC claims to be God not a world leader. He will then arise in a kingdom which appears to be the kingdom of God on earth not any country we know today.


                              Mark

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