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  • The Two Witnesses

    I see so many different posts on different sites who say Elijah & Enoch will be the two witnesses, but I'm not so sure. What are your views on this subject & can you please post scriptures. I know the only way to really know is when this event happens. Just like when the anti-christ is revealed, I have my idea on who he is, but we won't know until the event occurs.

    yours in Christ
    Marjie
    Last edited by quiet dove; Dec 13th 2007, 03:35 AM. Reason: removed AC name speculation
    "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." -- Philippians 4:13
    My Webpage


  • #2
    MY view concerning the two witnesses are simple. Like John fulfilled the prophecies concerning "Elijah" making straight the paths of the Lord, so will two other prophets in Revelation 11. It is my belief that God does not need to have figures that already lived and died return to the ear5th to fulfill other aspects of Bible propphecy before the Lord returns.

    As far as the beast is concerned, the one that Talil and Soolara trains behind the scenes, that one is whom I believe will become the Beast. Solara and Talil are too old IMHO to fulfill the requirements. Besides, the Beast will not be able to be defeated, and the last time I checked, both men were defeated at some point diplomatically.

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    • #3
      I don't see the two witnesses as two literal people (and I most certainly don't see them as Elijah and Moses, or Elijah and Enoch). The Torah says that for people to be called into account, two or more witnesses need to be present to make a reckoning. Christ in turn says things similar to this, as well as saying things such as "Wherever two of you are, so will God be there" and so on.

      Since I believe most of the Revelation relies upon Old Testament Scripture (the Torah, prophetic imagery, etc.) and Christ's words, I believe the "two witnesses" is a symbolic representation of Christians as a whole (similar to how, at least in my interpretation, "Babylon" represents the corrupt people of Israel as a whole).

      (P.S. - We're not allowed to name names on who we believe the anti-christ to be, at least in the sense that they're currently living and we have no real evidence for why they would be the anti-christ other than the mere fact "Hey, he's in a position of power!")
      To This Day

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      • #4
        Thank you Mark for giving me the info on not giving names ... they are all over the web, but if they can't be posted here ... I'll comply with that.
        Blessings
        "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." -- Philippians 4:13
        My Webpage

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Marjiealm View Post
          Thank you Mark for giving me the info on not giving names ... they are all over the web, but if they can't be posted here ... I'll comply with that.
          Blessings
          It's cool. Sometimes I forget to read the "Rules" thread of each section of the forums too. I think depending on the circumstances, the name-game can change, but for the most part, I think most people just find it as assigning the blame when you have no proof.
          To This Day

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          • #6
            Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
            Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

            Why not let the Bible interpret itself?

            Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
            Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
            Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

            Scripture tells us that candlesticks are churches. So the question is which churches? Scripture tells us olive trees are Christians and Jews. So doesn't it stand to reason that the two witnesses are the Christian church (believers) and the Jewish Church (believers).

            Can anyone show a different definition of the candlesticks and olive trees based on Scripture? If not then shouldn't we use the definition Scripture gives us? JMHO
            Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Midwest Bob View Post
              Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
              Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

              Why not let the Bible interpret itself?

              Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
              Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
              Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

              Scripture tells us that candlesticks are churches. So the question is which churches? Scripture tells us olive trees are Christians and Jews. So doesn't it stand to reason that the two witnesses are the Christian church (believers) and the Jewish Church (believers).

              Can anyone show a different definition of the candlesticks and olive trees based on Scripture? If not then shouldn't we use the definition Scripture gives us? JMHO
              If one is going to let scripture speak for itself, then let the scriptures do the speaking.

              And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
              These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Verses 3-4

              Notice that these two olive trees and candlesticks are called witnesses of God? So, they can not symbolize an institution, and so the church is ruled out there.

              Did you notice that they are wearing mourning clothes? This can not be done by books or laws, but people. Therefore, the Torah and the Laws of Grace are eliminated as well.

              And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
              These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Verses 5-6

              Last time I checked, the church does not have the power to devour their enemies with fire, and tthe torah does ot have the ability to shut up the sky. This was done in the past by prophets, and not by books.

              And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Verse 7.

              Now we see that another figure that people misunderstand is presented, and this figure, the beast of the Abyss, kills the two lampstands. Well, the church can not be killed, because there are too many members. Also, the Torah and the Laws of grace are not fleshly beings, that they can be killed.

              And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
              And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
              And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. verses 8-10

              I figure that not very many people actually read these scriptures, and so I present them to you for you to read. As you can see, the two candlesticks, and olive trees are defined within these verses as prophets. They can not be be anything other than what verse 10 clearly identifies them as. They are prophets.

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              • #8
                Third Hero, that was a very interesting interpretation. I have read the scriptures, but for some reason, I wasn't getting it where the two witnesses are concerned. I do know they are to be prophets. But I don't think they will be Elijah or Enoch. I feel one may be Moses, but they other ... I can't even begin to guess.
                "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." -- Philippians 4:13
                My Webpage

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Midwest Bob View Post
                  So doesn't it stand to reason that the two witnesses are the Christian church (believers) and the Jewish Church (believers).
                  Do you mean Gentiles and Jews, or Christians and Jews? If you mean Gentile and Jews... they're one church. If you mean Christians (Gentile and Jew) and Jews (not-Christians), then Jews aren't really "believers" if they don't follow Christ.
                  To This Day

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by markedward View Post
                    Do you mean Gentiles and Jews, or Christians and Jews? If you mean Gentile and Jews... they're one church. If you mean Christians (Gentile and Jew) and Jews (not-Christians), then Jews aren't really "believers" if they don't follow Christ.
                    Agreed. There is no such thing as a Jewish CHurch and a Gentile church. Galatians is clear. There is no longer any Jew or Gentile, becasue all are one in CHrist Jesus. It's like saying thatthere are Black and White churches in AMerica. Well the entire church needs to wake up and smell the coffee, because God is not a respectors of color, or nationality, or creed. There is only one chruch, God's church, and whether you are Jew, Gentile, Black, White, purple with red speck, or Green, the Lord is lord over all of the church, and His church is not divided.

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                    • #11
                      Here is what I think John was told and was telling us... - Lk.11
                      analyze. synthesize. repeat.

                      *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by third hero View Post
                        Agreed. There is no such thing as a Jewish CHurch and a Gentile church. Galatians is clear. There is no longer any Jew or Gentile, becasue all are one in CHrist Jesus. It's like saying thatthere are Black and White churches in AMerica. Well the entire church needs to wake up and smell the coffee, because God is not a respectors of color, or nationality, or creed. There is only one chruch, God's church, and whether you are Jew, Gentile, Black, White, purple with red speck, or Green, the Lord is lord over all of the church, and His church is not divided.
                        Very well said.......

                        I beleive their is one body..all must come to salvation the same way...faith in Jesus Christ.

                        As for the two witnesses...I beleive it is symbolic.

                        Alaina

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by third hero View Post
                          If one is going to let scripture speak for itself, then let the scriptures do the speaking.
                          He did. He showed what candlesticks represented earlier in the book of Revelation (churches - Rev 1:20) and in Romans 11 we see the mention of the good olive tree, which refers to Jew and Gentile believers in the church. I do disagree with Bob as far as saying they represent the Gentile Church and Jewish Church, though, as there is only one church, which includes Jew and Gentile believers.

                          And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
                          These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Verses 3-4

                          Notice that these two olive trees and candlesticks are called witnesses of God? So, they can not symbolize an institution, and so the church is ruled out there.
                          We are in the church, right? Aren't we witnesses of God? I'm not following you here.


                          Did you notice that they are wearing mourning clothes? This can not be done by books or laws, but people. Therefore, the Torah and the Laws of Grace are eliminated as well.

                          And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
                          These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Verses 5-6

                          Last time I checked, the church does not have the power to devour their enemies with fire, and tthe torah does ot have the ability to shut up the sky. This was done in the past by prophets, and not by books.
                          Could it be that you are underestimating the power that the church is supposed to have?

                          12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
                          13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. - John 14:12-13

                          And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Verse 7.

                          Now we see that another figure that people misunderstand is presented, and this figure, the beast of the Abyss, kills the two lampstands. Well, the church can not be killed, because there are too many members. Also, the Torah and the Laws of grace are not fleshly beings, that they can be killed.
                          Wait, isn't that the same beast as we see here:

                          And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. - Revelation 13:7

                          Notice the similar wording to Revelation 11:7. These are parallel. The saints are the church. They are the witnesses. I'm not saying every single member of the church is killed, but many are.

                          And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
                          And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
                          And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. verses 8-10

                          I figure that not very many people actually read these scriptures, and so I present them to you for you to read. As you can see, the two candlesticks, and olive trees are defined within these verses as prophets. They can not be be anything other than what verse 10 clearly identifies them as. They are prophets.
                          If candlesticks can refer to churches (as they do in Rev 1:20) and witnesses can be referred to as candlesticks, then why can't churches also refer to prophets? Who would think that candlesticks could be equivalent to churches if the text didn't say so? No one. Revelation contains a great deal of figurative language and I think you miss the meaning of a lot of it because of your insistence on interpreting everything literally.

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                          • #14
                            Witnesses

                            I wanted to look at the how witness is used in other verses.....Keep an open mind.....meaning just because you heard it doesn't mean it is fact.

                            Isa.43
                            1. [10] Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
                            2. [12] I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
                            Matt.18
                            1. [16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
                            John.1
                            1. [7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
                            2. [8] He was not that Light, but was sent tobear witness of that Light.
                            3. [15] John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
                            Rom.8
                            1. [16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
                            Now could we not be the witnesses?

                            1John.5
                            1. [10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
                            Now I am going out of the "box" but are we not to be witnesses to the world? ...are we not along with Jesus, witnesses to God?


                            Now about the witnesses prophesizing and being raised from the dead.......it that not a picture of salvation and the warring on the saints by the enemy?


                            God gives His people power through Christ to witness..but the unsaved don't want the message...Jesus says the world hates us and will seek to kill us- by silencing us.


                            Now even if we die physically...we are still alive in the spirit...for we have eternal life.

                            We will be raised up to be with the Lord forever...whether at death or at His return.


                            But imagine....before the Lord comes...the surprise and horror of those who think they killed all the witnesses...and maybe they did physically...but then we rise to be with the Lord.


                            Now you if a pre-tribber...don't shoot me, this is my opinion I don't want to start a debate.



                            God Bless

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Marjiealm View Post
                              Just like when the anti-christ is revealed, I have my idea on who he is , but we won't know until the event occurs.

                              yours in Christ
                              Marjie

                              You're like the second or third person I heard say this. I don't even have a clue who he is.
                              Last edited by quiet dove; Dec 13th 2007, 03:36 AM. Reason: edited quoted material
                              Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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