Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

There will be no liars there.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • There will be no liars there.

    Let me start out by saying that judging others is not one of my favorite past times. Actually, it kind of gets me going a little bit to see others do it. With that in mind, let's discuss lying.

    Here's a verse...

    Rev 21:7-8
    8 " But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
    NASU


    Is it safe to say that liars will not go to heaven?

    Yet, we know that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and others lied but went to heaven.

    What am I getting at? Is it true that if one lies, that makes them a liar? In my mind, no. In order to be a liar, I think it means a life style. Please be patient and allow me to get more personal.

    When I was very young in the Lord, I had a habitual sin. It would come out every so often. I was ashamed of it and tired of losing to it. I went to the Lord about it in much condemnation. Now, God did set me free of it. But not before teaching me a very valid lesson. I remember one time, in prayer before the Lord, I was concerned over my habit. Yet, the Lord responded to me "yesterday, when you sinned, how long did it last". "Lord, for about 15 minutes I was in utter sin." "What were you doing the rest of the day Mark?" "I was walking in victory over this sin!" What a great lesson that was for me to learn! I had been victorious for much longer than I had been a failure. I was learning to see me as God was seeing me. After that, the Lord began to help me overcome.

    So if one lies once a day, is that a lifestyle? Does it make them a liar? I think not. A liar is one who has lying in their heart and who is defined by their actions. It is one who embraces lying as a way of life. There is a big difference between someone who lies, and someone who is a liar. One may lie, without depending on lying as a means of life.

    So personally, when I say something is a lie. I am not intending to call someone a liar. Abraham lied. But he is in heaven. We know liars don't go there. Nor do fornicators, yet Abraham is in heaven though he committed fornication.

    Just food for thought.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  • #2
    Wouldn't that verse suggest that the liars are of the world...? So IMO this verse suggests the people who don't turn to Christ...

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Scottizzle View Post
      Wouldn't that verse suggest that the liars are of the world...? So IMO this verse suggests the people who don't turn to Christ...
      That is exactly what I was going to say because when we are saved - all our sins are covered and we are no longer under judgment.

      We have already died and been judged (in His righteousness - not our own)

      So for those who are planning to handle the judgment on their own and think they are a 'good' person should tremble at that scripture because God is a just judge and will not wink at that little white lie or the lie that was 'justified'

      We no longer want to lie because we love Him and want to honor Him in all we do. But we still will fall victim to temptations - but that does not mean we are under judgment.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Ruth2 View Post
        That is exactly what I was going to say because when we are saved - all our sins are covered and we are no longer under judgment.

        We have already died and been judged (in His righteousness - not our own)

        So for those who are planning to handle the judgment on their own and think they are a 'good' person should tremble at that scripture because God is a just judge and will not wink at that little white lie or the lie that was 'justified'

        We no longer want to lie because we love Him and want to honor Him in all we do. But we still will fall victim to temptations - but that does not mean we are under judgment.

        Well basically we will always lie, thats almost goes without saying... If it's our wife during her pregnancy asking if she looks good you're going to say "I've never seen a more gawjus lady in muh life!" Lying is still lying despite what it's about isn't it? Also since people wanna be "good" and thats it, well... I guess thats a start... But see I did a double decker, I do good deeds for random people at the store or wherever on TOP of being saved, I think God likes that.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ruth2 View Post
          That is exactly what I was going to say because when we are saved - all our sins are covered and we are no longer under judgment.

          We have already died and been judged (in His righteousness - not our own)

          So for those who are planning to handle the judgment on their own and think they are a 'good' person should tremble at that scripture because God is a just judge and will not wink at that little white lie or the lie that was 'justified'

          We no longer want to lie because we love Him and want to honor Him in all we do. But we still will fall victim to temptations - but that does not mean we are under judgment.
          No problem so far. But what of the believer that lies. Is he a liar?

          Scripture does indicate there will be no liars or fornicators in heaven. Yet David committed adultery. Does that make him a fornicator?

          Do you guys see what I am getting at? One who lies is not defined by lying unless he embraces that in his heart as a lifestyle. David did not embrace his sin as a lifestyle and quickly repented. Hence our identity is not revealed in our actions of sin as much as our frailty and/or our belief system is revealed.

          So, to ask again, is a believer who tells one lie a liar?
          Matt 9:13
          13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
          NASU

          Comment


          • #6
            I agree that all those things are lifestyles. If a man screws up and cheats on his wife, he is an adulterer. But I think God is talking about people who live the lifestyle and are unrepentent of it. I've been an idolater, liar, fornicator (in my mind, I'm a virgin as far as physically), murderer (since hate is considered murder in your heart), slanderer, drunkard, cowardly and selfish. And I think it's safe to say that 90% of the people on this board have been all those things as well. Christ is the reason I'm forgiven of these things.

            Comment


            • #7
              Liars, adulterers, murderers, coveters, and all other labels of sin alike. Obviously we were all as such before Christ, but those who have sincerely forsaken their flesh, no longer serve their wills to carry out such sin and are no longer the liars, adulterers, murderers, coveters, and sinners they once were.

              EDIT: I believe one must be careful here though...For if you give yourself even the smallest bit of false self-assurance by stating "I don't do that enough for it to define my lifestyle so I shouldn't be worried"...You're already giving your old nature a new foothold. Becoming satisified with your current state of resolve against sin is one of the most dangerous things you can do.
              Jeremy, a bondservant of the Lord.

              Today is a good day to die for Christ.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Mark,

                I found it interesting when I looked up the Greek word. It is an adjective, not a noun. I think this helps to understand what is meant. The word means lying, deceitful, false. It's talking about one who is characterized by deception, lying, falsehood.

                So if one lies once a day, is that a lifestyle? Does it make them a liar? I think not. A liar is one who has lying in their heart and who is defined by their actions. It is one who embraces lying as a way of life. There is a big difference between someone who lies, and someone who is a liar. One may lie, without depending on lying as a means of life.
                (I'm not arguing against you here, just wanting some clarification, ok?) Can you give an example of someone who lies once a day yet is not a liar? I'm not sure how you are making the distinction between someone who embraces lying as a way of life, vs. lying. The reason is that liars usually lie. If you make a habit of lying, how do you know you're not a liar? Lying once a day seems like an awful lot of lying to me. Abraham did lie. So did Jacob. Jacob was actually quite deceptive in what he did to his father, at his mother's direction. But I don't think either of them had a habit of lying once a day or once a week or something like that.

                But I do agree with you that this is talking about someone who is characteristically deceptive.
                Love In Christ,
                Tanya






                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                  No problem so far. But what of the believer that lies. Is he a liar?

                  Scripture does indicate there will be no liars or fornicators in heaven. Yet David committed adultery. Does that make him a fornicator?

                  Do you guys see what I am getting at? One who lies is not defined by lying unless he embraces that in his heart as a lifestyle. David did not embrace his sin as a lifestyle and quickly repented. Hence our identity is not revealed in our actions of sin as much as our frailty and/or our belief system is revealed.

                  So, to ask again, is a believer who tells one lie a liar?
                  Logically, yes, without a doubt.

                  In God's eyes, yes, without a doubt.

                  Does that person remain a liar?
                  Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
                  Not second or third, but first.
                  Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
                  when He is the source of all hope,
                  when His love is received and freely given,
                  holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
                  will all other things be added unto to you.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by threebigrocks View Post
                    Logically, yes, without a doubt.

                    In God's eyes, yes, without a doubt.

                    Does that person remain a liar?

                    I believe the question that should be asked is that is this person a person of the world or a person of Christ? A human is a liar, saved or not, humans are liars period. Christ died for everyone mind you, but it's those who choose to accept this fact is the more important deal. Thats my two cents.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TanyaP View Post
                      (I'm not arguing against you here, just wanting some clarification, ok?) Can you give an example of someone who lies once a day yet is not a liar?
                      Abraham is the example I want to use. He lied one time that I know about in scripture. Maybe it occurred more but I haven't bothered to count. Is he a liar?


                      But I do agree with you that this is talking about someone who is characteristically deceptive.
                      That's my point. It is a character trait, or more importantly, an issue of the heart, not used to describe someone who has lied or who might lie again.
                      Matt 9:13
                      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                      NASU

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                        No problem so far. But what of the believer that lies. Is he a liar?

                        Scripture does indicate there will be no liars or fornicators in heaven. Yet David committed adultery. Does that make him a fornicator?

                        Do you guys see what I am getting at? One who lies is not defined by lying unless he embraces that in his heart as a lifestyle. David did not embrace his sin as a lifestyle and quickly repented. Hence our identity is not revealed in our actions of sin as much as our frailty and/or our belief system is revealed.

                        So, to ask again, is a believer who tells one lie a liar?
                        Absolutely. We are all liars and every other sinful word that we can label ourselves with. BUT we are saved by grace. There is nothing about our salvation that is of us.

                        In Matthew 5,6, and 7 Jesus took exceptional time to show the pharisees how far from perfection their best was.

                        Even if we minded our peas and q's to the n'th degree - we would still be sinners.

                        There are no liars, etc in heaven as described in the scripture you quoted because only those born again of a new spirit - to the second Adam - no longer slaves to sin but victors through Christ - are in heaven.

                        But it is not of our righteousness but our faith in Him that we are accounted to righteousness.

                        Gen 15:5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
                        6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

                        All righteousness throughout the scriptures from the beginning to the end is in trust and faith in Him - not our works - and 'not lying' to enter heaven would be works.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by threebigrocks View Post
                          Logically, yes, without a doubt.

                          In God's eyes, yes, without a doubt.

                          Does that person remain a liar?
                          So when one lies, God sees a liar? I don't think so. For if this person is saved, God sees a believer, not one who is defined by their lies. He convicts, chastises and refines the believer who lied. A liar won't make it in.

                          In other words, calling one a liar, is a judgment on the heart. While lies come from the heart, one can be righteous and lie. Abraham did it. He wasn't a liar. And when he lied, God was going to kill the one who was deceived by the lie. And he told the guy to go to Abraham and have Abraham pray for him ALL BEFORE ABRAHAM repented of his lie.

                          By logic, Abraham could not be a liar, because there are no liars in heaven. And before he repented of it, God wanted him to pray for a man.
                          Matt 9:13
                          13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                          NASU

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ruth2 View Post
                            Absolutely. We are all liars and every other sinful word that we can label ourselves with. BUT we are saved by grace. There is nothing about our salvation that is of us.

                            In Matthew 5,6, and 7 Jesus took exceptional time to show the pharisees how far from perfection their best was.

                            Even if we minded our peas and q's to the n'th degree - we would still be sinners.

                            There are no liars, etc in heaven as described in the scripture you quoted because only those born again of a new spirit - to the second Adam - no longer slaves to sin but victors through Christ - are in heaven.

                            But it is not of our righteousness but our faith in Him that we are accounted to righteousness.

                            Gen 15:5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
                            6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

                            All righteousness throughout the scriptures from the beginning to the end is in trust and faith in Him - not our works - and 'not lying' to enter heaven would be works.
                            Can I find my identity in Christ and in my sin at the same time?
                            Matt 9:13
                            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                            NASU

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              To try to reckon if a person is going to heaven based on their behavior is measuring one man against another. We have to be measured against Christ. We will never measure up.

                              That is the reason for the depth of our love - because of the incredibly great gift He gave us to pay our debt - for past, present, and all future sins.

                              Even things we don't even think are a sin - in man's eyes - like those little white lies are still sin. But because we have already died with Him on the cross, been judged already, and have been judged righteous because of His payment, then born again a new creation sealed with a deposit of the Holy Spirit - we are no longer under the law.

                              Romans 8
                              1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
                              9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
                              Sonship Through the Spirit

                              12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
                              From Suffering to Glory

                              18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
                              26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us[b] with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
                              28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
                              God’s Everlasting Love

                              31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:


                              “ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
                              We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[c]

                              37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X