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Two Questions (and Answers), of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse

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  • Two Questions (and Answers), of Jesus in the Olivet Discourse

    This topic spawned from a discussion ThirdHero and I were having last week, and how one differentiates the Olivet Discourse from either a historical view, or a futuristic view....or both.

    My post, is just the scriptures. No commentary, other than my use of colors to denote which question is being asked and answered.
    • Question/Answer 1: involves the leveling of the Herod's Temple and the Destruction of Jerusalem 1st Century A.D.
      .
    • Question/Answer 2: involves the future endtime Return of Christ on the Last Day, 2007++ A.D.
    Now to the Scriptures themselves.



    Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
    Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    Mark 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
    Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be?
    andwhat shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

    Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
    Matthew 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
    Matthew 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
    Matthew 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
    Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
    Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
    Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?
    and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


    Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


    Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand;
    Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
    Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

    Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
    Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    Matthew 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    Matthew 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
    Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    Matthew 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
    Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
    Matthew 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
    Matthew 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
    Matthew 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
    Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
    Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
    Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
    Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
    Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
    Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
    Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
    Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
    Matthew 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
    Matthew 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
    Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
    Matthew 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
    Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    Matthew 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
    Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    Matthew 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    Matthew 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Matthew 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    Matthew 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    Matthew 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.





    Conclusion:
    Two Questions and Two Answers about two different events (one in 1st Century A.D., and one in the future Last Day 2007++ A.D.), all described in the Olivet Discourse.

  • #2
    Great post there David. It is exactly as Eric wrote to me and said.

    However, I have one question to ask, and I'll preface this by saying:

    For me, the single event that alerts me to the likelihood that the Lord is about to return is the Great Tribulation. And the signal, to me, that the Great Tribulation has come is the Abomination that causes desolation.

    According to your post, the Abomination that causes desolation is a past event, due to the fact that Titus desolated the Temple by offering a pig on the altar before they tore it down.

    So, let's assume that I am wrong, and the abomination that causes desolation is a past event, what then would be the monicker that we all can point to that alerts us that the Great tribulation is upon us?

    And one more question.

    If what is recorded in 2 Thes 2:3-4 is not the Abomination that causes Desolation, then what is it, IYHO? Is this the sign? And if it is, then where is this Temple of God? Is it the human heart, or a great Cathedral of some sort where believers gather?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by third hero View Post
      Great post there David. It is exactly as Eric wrote to me and said.

      However, I have one question to ask, and I'll preface this by saying:

      For me, the single event that alerts me to the likelihood that the Lord is about to return is the Great Tribulation. And the signal, to me, that the Great Tribulation has come is the Abomination that causes desolation.

      According to your post, the Abomination that causes desolation is a past event, due to the fact that Titus desolated the Temple by offering a pig on the altar before they tore it down.

      So, let's assume that I am wrong, and the abomination that causes desolation is a past event, what then would be the monicker that we all can point to that alerts us that the Great tribulation is upon us?
      Quoting just from those future verses in red:
      • wars and rumours of wars
      • nation shall rise against nation, and
      • kingdom against kingdom: and
      • there shall be famines, and
      • pestilences, and
      • earthquakes, in divers places
      • hey deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you
      • then shall many be offended, and
      • shall betray one another, and
      • shall hate one another
      • iniquity shall abound,
      • the love of many shall wax cold
      • this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world
      • then shall be great tribulation,
      • such as was not since the beginning of the world** to this time, no, nor ever shall be
      • except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved
      • false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders
      • the sun be darkened, and
      • the moon shall not give her light, and
      • the stars shall fall from heaven, and
      • the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
      • the sea and the waves roaring
      (**Meaning greater that Noahs' Flood to me)


      Now we could get other clues and monickers from the other writers, outside of the Olivet Discourse....but these seem pretty emphatic to me....especially the ones highlighted above, that I think we would recognize....and/or couldn't have occured in the 1st century.



      Originally posted by third hero View Post

      And one more question.

      If what is recorded in 2 Thes 2:3-4 is not the Abomination that causes Desolation, then what is it, IYHO? Is this the sign? And if it is, then where is this Temple of God? Is it the human heart, or a great Cathedral of some sort where believers gather?
      I believe it is pointing to the time of the great apostacy, when Satan has been released for a little season, and is allowed to deceive the gentiles again so that most of the world falls away into rebellion.

      The church of that time, which was once God's temple, will be replaced with a false church with Satan as its head, a false temple; pretending to be the true one...

      Look at how the Episcopal church has fallen so much in just a short time towards evil...that is just a starting example. Most all church groups, are stepping futher and further away from the truth and from Christ, and embracing the things of the world. Satan...taking a foothold in the temple....declaring himself god.

      Just a thought....one I believe is more viable than a rebuilt stone building desecration.



      Let's not Derail the thread into 2 Thess 2 Doug, start another thread on that if you need to. This one is the Olivet Discourse and its two questions.

      Comment


      • #4
        The first question is answered by Rome, when they destroyed the temple and dispersed the Jews.
        The abomination of desolation to luke is expressed-- "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

        "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
        21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
        22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled
        Jesus prophecied that these were now the days of vengeance, and the Jews would be scattered...until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


        The days of vengeance is the same as the great trib and began with them being exiled.

        because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
        23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
        24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
        Is the great tribulation about the Jews being scattered and suffering in the nations.?
        Its been a horrific 2000 years for both Jew and Christian.

        Jesus said the times of the Gentiles trampling on Jerusalem would be fulfilled.

        This is a major sign of his coming.

        and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
        25 "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
        26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
        27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
        28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
        He then recites the parable of the fig tree.
        "So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.
        32 "Truly I say to you, this generation[20][Or race ] will not pass away until all things take place.
        33 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
        And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
          This topic spawned from a discussion ThirdHero and I were having last week, and how one differentiates the Olivet Discourse from either a historical view, or a futuristic view....or both.

          My post, is just the scriptures. No commentary, other than my use of colors to denote which question is being asked and answered.
          • Question/Answer 1: involves the leveling of the Herod's Temple and the Destruction of Jerusalem 1st Century A.D.
            .
          • Question/Answer 2: involves the future endtime Return of Christ on the Last Day, 2007++ A.D.
          Now to the Scriptures themselves.



          Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
          Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
          Mark 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
          Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be?
          andwhat shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

          Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
          Matthew 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
          Matthew 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
          Matthew 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
          Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
          Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
          Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
          Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
          Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
          Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
          Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
          Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
          Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
          Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?
          and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
          Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
          Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
          Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
          Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
          Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
          Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
          Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
          Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
          Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
          Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
          Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


          Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
          Luke 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
          Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
          Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
          Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


          Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand;
          Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
          Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
          Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
          Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
          Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


          Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
          Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
          Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
          Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
          Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
          Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
          Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
          Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
          Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
          Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
          Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

          Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
          Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
          Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
          Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

          Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
          Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
          Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
          Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
          Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
          Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
          Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
          Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
          Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
          Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
          Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
          Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
          Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
          Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
          Matthew 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
          Matthew 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
          Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
          Matthew 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
          Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
          Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
          Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
          Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
          Matthew 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
          Matthew 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
          Matthew 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
          Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
          Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
          Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
          Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
          Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
          Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
          Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
          Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
          Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
          Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
          Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
          Matthew 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
          Matthew 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
          Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
          Matthew 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
          Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
          Matthew 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
          Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
          Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
          Matthew 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
          Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
          Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
          Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
          Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
          Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
          Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
          Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
          Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
          Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
          Matthew 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
          Matthew 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
          Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
          Matthew 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
          Matthew 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
          Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
          Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
          Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
          Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
          Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
          Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
          Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.





          Conclusion:
          Two Questions and Two Answers about two different events (one in 1st Century A.D., and one in the future Last Day 2007++ A.D.), all described in the Olivet Discourse.
          Hello DavidTaylor & co.,
          So are you still looking for possible explanations for the verses you highlighted? Because I believe all of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the time leading up to the end in AD70.
          Or is that the end of the matter in your posts?

          Comment


          • #6
            Because I believe all of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the time leading up to the end in AD70.
            So when did the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled over Jerusalem..what date can you put on that.?

            The times of the Gentiles started 70 AD when the jew was exiled.
            I would think those times will be fulfilled when the opposite happens, and they reclaim it.
            And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
              So when did the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled over Jerusalem..what date can you put on that.?

              The times of the Gentiles started 70 AD when the jew was exiled.
              I would think those times will be fulfilled when the opposite happens, and they reclaim it.
              The "Times of the Gentiles" begins in the times of Daniel.
              It begins with Nebuchadnezzar. (The carnage of Jerusalem)
              Dan 2:36- Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold. "It is you O king Nebuchadnezzar!"
              "You O king are the king of kings, the God of heaven has given to you the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory." God had given him all power to rule.
              It was to end with the Gentile nation of Rome, when Jerusalem was destroyed in AD70 (Luke 21:20-24)

              Comment


              • #8
                The "Times of the Gentiles" begins in the times of Daniel.

                Well in a way, but this is not what Jesus was refering to..........He is answering 1 of 2 questions about the temple being torn down, or his coming again.

                because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
                23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
                24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


                He connects the tearing down of the temple, with the exile of the Jews to all nations, not just babylon. This is the starting point of the times of gentiles over Jerusalem.

                How can one interpret that the times of the gentiles would be fulfilled?
                I am just suggesting that they are fulfilled when the Jews reclaim it and bring an end to gentile rule.

                Joels prophecy comes into play, as Peter has already quoted Joel as being in the process of fulfillment.


                The Promise of the Spirit

                28 "It will come about after this
                That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
                And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
                Your old men will dream dreams,
                Your young men will see visions.

                29 "Even on the male and female servants
                I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
                30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
                Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
                31 "The sun will be turned into darkness
                And the moon into blood
                Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
                32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
                Will be delivered;
                For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
                There will be those who escape,
                As the LORD has said,
                Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

                "For behold, in those days and at that time,
                When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,


                2 I will gather all the nations
                And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.
                Then I will enter into judgment with them there
                On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
                Whom they have scattered among the nations;
                And they have divided up My land.
                And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                  in a way, but this is not what Jesus was refering to..........He is answering 1 of 2 questions about the temple being torn down, or his coming again.
                  Well, He knows the beginning from the end.
                  This may be a long term prophecy, but I lean more towards the shorter term. "Gentiles" were the Romans at this time. "And they will fall by the sword, and be led away captive to all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."
                  See, during the destruction of Jerusalem, the survivors were taken away and sold as slaves. And Rev. 11:2 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
                  Also, I don't consider Muslims "Gentiles"
                  In fact, in this use of gentiles, it should denote "pagan gentiles"

                  How can one interpret that the times of the gentiles would be fulfilled?
                  I am just suggesting that they are fulfilled when the Jews reclaim it and bring an end to gentile rule.
                  Maybe. But it still doesn't imply "rulership" It implies trampling down.
                  Joels prophecy comes into play, as Peter has already quoted Joel as being in the process of fulfillment.[/quote]
                  Quote:
                  The Promise of the Spirit

                  28 "It will come about after this
                  That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
                  And your sons and daughters will prophesy,
                  Your old men will dream dreams,
                  Your young men will see visions.

                  29 "Even on the male and female servants
                  I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
                  30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
                  Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
                  31 "The sun will be turned into darkness
                  And the moon into blood
                  Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
                  32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD
                  Will be delivered;
                  For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
                  There will be those who escape,
                  As the LORD has said,
                  Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

                  "For behold, in those days and at that time,
                  When I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,


                  2 I will gather all the nations
                  And bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat.
                  Then I will enter into judgment with them there
                  On behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel,
                  Whom they have scattered among the nations;
                  And they have divided up My land.
                  Well, you didn't give the verses where Peter quoted Joel. but anyway, this already occurred! The remnant is spoken about here.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                    ...My post, is just the scriptures. No commentary, other than my use of colors to denote which question is being asked and answered.
                    • Question/Answer 1: involves the leveling of the Herod's Temple and the Destruction of Jerusalem 1st Century A.D.
                      .
                    • Question/Answer 2: involves the future endtime Return of Christ on the Last Day, 2007++ A.D.
                    Now to the Scriptures themselves.
                    David – regarding the "Olivet Discourse" (Matt 24: 1-36) I would agree with you that two seperate questions were asked of the Lord that day, (1) Tell us, when shall these things be? And (2) What shall be the sign of the end of the world? I think the answer to question #2 is addressed only in verses 35 and 36.

                    Question #1 pertained to the events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem during the Jewish-Roman War (AD 66–73). Jesus answered that question in verses 4-34 with the preface that the generation He was speaking to that dayshall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished”. Question #2 is related to His second coming and He answered that question in verses 35 and 36,
                    Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
                    Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
                    The point Jesus is making is that no sign would be given regarding the end of time. Why – because “of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only”, i.e., the seconding coming would come without any sign – even the Lord and the “angels of heaven” did not know the day or the hour of that Day. Jesus warned that His second coming would be “as a thief in the night” - without warning,
                    “If the master of the house had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken through. Therefore be ye also ready; for in an hour that ye think not the Son of man cometh… but of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only”.
                    Last edited by losthorizon; Dec 15th 2007, 03:40 PM. Reason: clarification

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      In my opinion Mark & Luke record only a question about the 1st century destruction of the temple. You have to read 'The 2nd Coming' into their question, it's not actually there.

                      Mark 13
                      1As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
                      2"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
                      3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4"Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"
                      There is absolutely ZERO in that conversation that should make one think of The 2nd Coming. The Disciples weren't even fully grasping that Jesus was leaving yet, Him coming again was simply not on their radar. They were asking about the temple that they were looking at, and nothing more. Same with Luke.

                      Of course, Matthew records the question a little differently. If it weren't for Matthew, I doubt very many people at all would interpret portions of Mark & Luke's 'Olivet Discourse' in a futuristic way. Nevertheless, Matthew exists and should be looked at closely:

                      Matthew
                      1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
                      Everything up until the very last line is the same 1st century context as Mark & Luke. Matthew alone mentions the word 'coming.' Matthew alone mentions the 'end of the age/world.'

                      The first thing that needs to be addressed is whether 'age' or 'world' is correct. Most scholars agree that 'age' is the proper translation. So, Matthew could be talking about the end of the Jewish Age (which fits the 1st century context) or the end of the world's age (which would be an addition in Matthew not present in Mark or Luke).

                      The second issue is the word 'coming.' Why did Matthew use it when Mark & Luke did not and does IT refer to the 2nd Coming? I don't know that we can answer question #1 without interviewing Matthew himself. But question #2 is worthy of debate. Certainly the word 'Coming' NEED not refer to "The 2nd Coming." A 'coming' in Scripture can and often does refer to a non-bodily judgment, or spiritual presence of some kind.

                      So, on a textual level, Matthew's version of the 2 questions may still be all about the 1st century. It would be paraphrased as follows: "And what signs will accompany the Judgment when the 2nd Temple Era is about to end?"

                      So, I think we have 2 valid options here.
                      1) It's all about the 1st century, but Matthew's wording has confused some people b/c we use the word 'coming' differently and the KJV translated 'age' as 'world'
                      2) Matthew, unlike Mark & Luke, combined the Olivet Discourse with another discourse that Jesus gave which was about the 2nd Coming. Since the events (the end of the Jewish Age and the end of the known world) are both Apocalyptic events, the language used to describe both are very similar.

                      Personally, I favor view #2. In my research of Matthew, I find that he often groups Jesus' teachings together. He grouped a whole bunch of parables together in chapter 13, for instance. In Matthew 24-25, I think he grouped 2 separate discourses together b/c they were both apocalyptic in nature. I think a lot of the verses in Matthew's discourse can be said to be true of both events, but that 1-34 is primarily and perhaps only about the destruction of the 1st Century temple. What comes after that may apply to both the non-bodily coming in judgment in AD70 and the bodily 2nd Coming at the end of the world. He was telling them the former would occur in their generation, but, of the latter, no man knows when.
                      The Matthew Never Knew
                      The Knew Kingdom

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Holy moly Matthew94!

                        What Bible version are you using?
                        In fact, in the KJV, the NKJV, even the NIV has it different than yours.

                        Matthew 24:3 (King James Version)

                        3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


                        Matthew 24:3 (New King James Version)

                        The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

                        3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

                        Matthew 24:3 (New International Version)




                        3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"



                        There are 3 questions asked here, plain as day.
                        1. When shall these things be?-had reference to the approaching destruction of the temple in the previous 2 verses.
                        2.What shall be the sign of thy coming and

                        3.the end of the age?

                        There are erroneous & misleading conceptions of the phrase "end of the world" (age)

                        English readers of the N.T. may suppose that is means the destruction of the material earth; but shouldn't hold weight to those who are of learning.
                        The true significance of the word (in Greek) is not world, but age-similar to the Latin (a period of time):thus, "the end of the age" written in Greek, means the close of the epoch or age,- that is the Jewish age, or dispensation which was drawing near, as our Lord frequently intimated.



                        All those passages which speak of 'the end' (Greek words), 'the end of the age,' or, the ends of the ages'(Greek words), refer to the same consummation, & always as nigh(near) at hand.
                        1Cor.10:11- St. Paul says:"The ends of the ages have stretched out to us;" - implying that he regarded himself & his readers as living near the conclusion of an aeon, or age.

                        I'm really not interested when it comes to the apostolic fathers of the church. (Early 2nd century)These were only apologists against Jewish claims of Eschatological events being unfulfilled, using Apologetics, saying the Soteriology(redemptive events) were fulfilled.
                        By the mid- 2nd century, church fathers subtly shifted away from the idea of extreme imminence, to the idea of a still imminent(but slightly delayed) fulfillment. But as that delay idea was repeatedly taught for centuries, it caught on so well that today the Church can think of nothing but delay!

                        Food for thought, yes?

                        In His Service,
                        ALLEGRA.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Allegra View Post
                          Holy moly Matthew94!

                          What Bible version are you using?
                          In fact, in the KJV, the NKJV, even the NIV has it different than yours.
                          I think you are confused. My quote was from the NIV. You may have been reading the quote of Mark's parallel account, which does read differently and thinking that was my translations version of Matthew 24:3?

                          There are 3 questions asked here, plain as day.
                          1. When shall these things be?-had reference to the approaching destruction of the temple in the previous 2 verses.
                          2.What shall be the sign of thy coming and
                          3.the end of the age?
                          Well, you can separate 2 & 3 if you want. But they need not be separated. 2 & 3 are obviously asking about the same event (the Coming and the end of the Age happen at the same time).

                          There are erroneous & misleading conceptions of the phrase "end of the world" (age)

                          English readers of the N.T. may suppose that is means the destruction of the material earth; but shouldn't hold weight to those who are of learning.
                          The true significance of the word (in Greek) is not world, but age-similar to the Latin (a period of time):thus, "the end of the age" written in Greek, means the close of the epoch or age,- that is the Jewish age, or dispensation which was drawing near, as our Lord frequently intimated.
                          That's exactly what I said.

                          I am confused as to whether the rest of your post was a response to me or in general. In any case...

                          In Christ,
                          matthew
                          The Matthew Never Knew
                          The Knew Kingdom

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi David. It is my understanding that the disciples considered the second coming and the destruction of the temple as one and the same event.
                            To them, the temple was everything. They could not imagine a world without it. To the disciples the destruction of the temple was the end of the world.
                            That is why they asked "when shall these things be(the destruction of the temple) and what shall be the sign of thy coming".
                            They expected them to be concurrent events.
                            Jesus then described the different signs. The abomination of desolation (Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem)as a sign of the end of the temple, and teh other signs revealing the nearness of His coming.

                            He perfectly described a series of events beginning from His time til our day.

                            Math 24:1-3 Beginning of Christian church.
                            vs 4...wars, deception, bloodshed. An accurate portrayel of the historical scenes of the first 3 centuries.
                            vs 11...Apostacy- development into the papacy-(the falling away of 2 Thess).
                            vs 21...Trribulation- Papal persecutions -death of millions of of martys
                            vs22...Tribulation cut short by the preaching of the truth during the reformation
                            vs 29...signs at end of tribulation
                            vs 30-31..second coming

                            Interestingly, the same sequence of events is shown elsewhere in the 7 seals, Daniel 11, and the 7 letters to the churches of Rev 2,3.

                            Such a historicist viewpoint in todays climate of 'left-behind' eschatology is hardly mainstream, but I believe is more scripurally consistent. What's more, it's the view all the reformers took.
                            Brakelite
                            Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and
                            rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
                              In my opinion Mark & Luke record only a question about the 1st century destruction of the temple. You have to read 'The 2nd Coming' into their question, it's not actually there.



                              There is absolutely ZERO in that conversation that should make one think of The 2nd Coming. The Disciples weren't even fully grasping that Jesus was leaving yet, Him coming again was simply not on their radar. They were asking about the temple that they were looking at, and nothing more. Same with Luke.

                              Of course, Matthew records the question a little differently. If it weren't for Matthew, I doubt very many people at all would interpret portions of Mark & Luke's 'Olivet Discourse' in a futuristic way. Nevertheless, Matthew exists and should be looked at closely:



                              Everything up until the very last line is the same 1st century context as Mark & Luke. Matthew alone mentions the word 'coming.' Matthew alone mentions the 'end of the age/world.'

                              The first thing that needs to be addressed is whether 'age' or 'world' is correct. Most scholars agree that 'age' is the proper translation. So, Matthew could be talking about the end of the Jewish Age (which fits the 1st century context) or the end of the world's age (which would be an addition in Matthew not present in Mark or Luke).

                              The second issue is the word 'coming.' Why did Matthew use it when Mark & Luke did not and does IT refer to the 2nd Coming? I don't know that we can answer question #1 without interviewing Matthew himself. But question #2 is worthy of debate. Certainly the word 'Coming' NEED not refer to "The 2nd Coming." A 'coming' in Scripture can and often does refer to a non-bodily judgment, or spiritual presence of some kind.

                              So, on a textual level, Matthew's version of the 2 questions may still be all about the 1st century. It would be paraphrased as follows: "And what signs will accompany the Judgment when the 2nd Temple Era is about to end?"

                              So, I think we have 2 valid options here.
                              1) It's all about the 1st century, but Matthew's wording has confused some people b/c we use the word 'coming' differently and the KJV translated 'age' as 'world'
                              2) Matthew, unlike Mark & Luke, combined the Olivet Discourse with another discourse that Jesus gave which was about the 2nd Coming. Since the events (the end of the Jewish Age and the end of the known world) are both Apocalyptic events, the language used to describe both are very similar.

                              Personally, I favor view #2. In my research of Matthew, I find that he often groups Jesus' teachings together. He grouped a whole bunch of parables together in chapter 13, for instance. In Matthew 24-25, I think he grouped 2 separate discourses together b/c they were both apocalyptic in nature. I think a lot of the verses in Matthew's discourse can be said to be true of both events, but that 1-34 is primarily and perhaps only about the destruction of the 1st Century temple. What comes after that may apply to both the non-bodily coming in judgment in AD70 and the bodily 2nd Coming at the end of the world. He was telling them the former would occur in their generation, but, of the latter, no man knows when.
                              I apologize Matthew94, I did misunderstand what you wrote.
                              And yes, questions 2+3 do link together.
                              In fact they all link together. Wouldn't you agree?
                              In addition, all of Olivet Discourse paralleled in Matthew, Mark, & Luke, all continue with Jesus answering all those questions anyway.
                              All of Matthew(I say Matthew bc his is the most extensive version) from Chapter 24 right to the end of chapter 25 is all related to the big 3 events.
                              Do you agree with me regarding CH. 24-25?

                              And yes, that's true, I wrote the Greek definition for the "world"
                              & the comment about Bible versions for info in general.
                              I'm sorry if you already commented on that too.

                              Oh, I see what the problem is by your very last sentence. That's where we disagree.
                              Last edited by Allegra; Dec 16th 2007, 01:34 AM. Reason: additional comment.

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