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Pondering Roe versus Wade

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  • #16
    Originally posted by I<3Jesus View Post
    I do not see those things as merely Christian morals. I do not know anyone who thinks it is OK to have an incestuous relationship regardless of their religious beliefs (Ewww). Having two wives might be a scriptural thing, but again I think it has more to do with common decency and common sense (who in their right mind would want two wives - LOL). Marijuana is only illegal because they cannot find a way to legally distribute and tax it. If they could, marijuana would be sold right next to cigarettes (which are deadly and should be made illegal). Cigarettes claim more lives in one day than marijuana does in a month (or something, I cannot remember the exact quote). I really think the things you mentioned are not even in the same league as abortion.
    I don't think being anti-abortion is merely a Christian moral. We're not saying these people have to believe in Jesus or any kind of deity. Just don't end a human life.

    As for incest and having multiple wives, there are people who support both respectively. Who does it hurt if a brother and sister have an initimate relationship? They use birth control and do not want to have kids. They're just having a good time. The fact is that they are not directly injuring anyone. We as a society view that act as detestable and rightly so. I don't mean to go off on another tangent; I only mean to demonstrate that society makes judgments of what is right and wrong and imposes those judgments on all of society, not just those that agree. This is perfectly fine unless the individual has a right that is being infringed upon.

    Here is an example, say there is this new religion that starts to take a strong hold in America and that religion lobbies for a new law to be made that every household must have a male heir and are allowed only two chances to have one (all other female children will be put to death). What would you do? I am trying to come up with a comparable scenario and it is pretty hard. I am sure you wouldn't agree to that. You would be livid if the government told you what to do with your body and your children. Would you just submit because these religious folks told you that they are children of the one true God and they are scripturally bound to hold you accountable to their moral code of law?
    Mandating the killing of an innocent life and prohibiting the killing of an innocent life are completely opposite. I believe your hypothetical points out the flaw in reasoning of those who support abortion, no offense intended of course. In your example you suggest a scenario in which female children in some instances are put to death. You imply this is wrong because the government is telling citizens what to do with their bodies and children. How about the fact that an innocent girl is losing her life? We can't only focus on the impact on the parents. The ones being the most affected by this are the children being killed.

    With abortion we don't have a child that has been born. Nevertheless, what is being killed is human and it is living and developing. If you believe that life begins at conception then you also must take into account the interest of that life before terminating it. You may think the woman's interest outweighs the interest of the unborn life, but you can't restrict the argument to only being about "choice."
    Woodrow Call: For all you know it invites people to rob us.
    Gus McCrae: Well the first man comes along that can read Latin is welcome to rob us, far as I'm concerned. I'd like a chance t' shoot at a educated man once in my life.


    If I find,
    If I find my own way,
    How much will I find?
    -- Joseph Arthur, In the Sun

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    • #17
      Oh and for the record, I realize this is a heated topic, but could we refrain from attacking the topic starter? I am really trying to sort my feelings out on the issue and want to know where other Christians stand, but I am not comfortable with people making assumptions about my character or attacking my faith. Thanks in advance!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Matthew View Post
        I don't think being anti-abortion is merely a Christian moral. We're not saying these people have to believe in Jesus or any kind of deity. Just don't end a human life.

        As for incest and having multiple wives, there are people who support both respectively. Who does it hurt if a brother and sister have an initimate relationship? They use birth control and do not want to have kids. They're just having a good time. The fact is that they are not directly injuring anyone. We as a society view that act as detestable and rightly so. I don't mean to go off on another tangent; I only mean to demonstrate that society makes judgments of what is right and wrong and imposes those judgments on all of society, not just those that agree. This is perfectly fine unless the individual has a right that is being infringed upon.
        No offense, but the incest argument just needs to be dropped. I do not know anyone who thinks it is OK to have sexual relations with their family members. The whole conversation is making me quite ill, so can we refrain from bringing it up anymore?

        Mandating the killing of an innocent life and prohibiting the killing of an innocent life are completely opposite. I believe your hypothetical points out the flaw in reasoning of those who support abortion, no offense intended of course. In your example you suggest a scenario in which female children in some instances are put to death. You imply this is wrong because the government is telling citizens what to do with their bodies and children. How about the fact that an innocent girl is losing her life? We can't only focus on the impact on the parents. The ones being the most affected by this are the children being killed.

        With abortion we don't have a child that has been born. Nevertheless, what is being killed is human and it is living and developing. If you believe that life begins at conception then you also must take into account the interest of that life before terminating it. You may think the woman's interest outweighs the interest of the unborn life, but you can't restrict the argument to only being about "choice."
        I said my example was flawed. It was like 2 am, cut me some slack. Ha. The point I was trying to make is that you would not stand for another faith dictating what to do with your born or unborn child right? Why on earth do you think that forcing secular people to adhere to your standard is going to bring them to God? Sure there are non secular people who are against abortion too, but the loudest opponents are those whose argument is faith based.

        I can tell you from having first hand experience in dealing with some of these women that they do not believe in God because they have been beaten down their entire life. They take the stance that there is no God because if there was, why would he let them go through hell. These women have no other choice because there are so very few options for them. Christians flap their gums about wanting to make abortion illegal, which is fine, but what other option are you giving these women? Instead of fighting to push your ideals on them, how about doing something positive to help them. How about helping to build safe houses and organizations to help them carry the child to term in a safe, healthy environment? How about pushing for better legislation when it comes to adoption? How about reforming the current organizations in place that are supposed to help house unwanted children? Do you realize that there are thousands of children in this country that are supposed to be accounted for and in foster homes that have gone missing? Most of which are far too young to be run aways. What happened to them and why isn't anyone looking for them? My point is it is SO easy to point your finger and demand that something be changed on a level in which you have absolutely no responsibility. I just think that we should be doing something to help these women instead of just decreasing their options and vanishing silently into the night.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by I<3Jesus View Post
          No, I am saying that forcing people to comply with your religious ideals will not bring them to God.
          Protecting the right to life, an unalienable RIGHT listed in the Declaration of Independence, is not about forcing religious ideals on people. It is about protecting the lives of defenseless babies who are being killed.

          Some of the most ardent pro-lifers I know are atheists who recognize abortion as a complete violation of the right to life we all are given in this country.
          My Blog

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          • #20
            Originally posted by I<3Jesus View Post
            I can tell you from having first hand experience in dealing with some of these women that they do not believe in God because they have been beaten down their entire life. They take the stance that there is no God because if there was, why would he let them go through hell. These women have no other choice because there are so very few options for them. Christians flap their gums about wanting to make abortion illegal, which is fine, but what other option are you giving these women? Instead of fighting to push your ideals on them, how about doing something positive to help them. How about helping to build safe houses and organizations to help them carry the child to term in a safe, healthy environment? How about pushing for better legislation when it comes to adoption? How about reforming the current organizations in place that are supposed to help house unwanted children? Do you realize that there are thousands of children in this country that are supposed to be accounted for and in foster homes that have gone missing? Most of which are far too young to be run aways. What happened to them and why isn't anyone looking for them? My point is it is SO easy to point your finger and demand that something be changed on a level in which you have absolutely no responsibility. I just think that we should be doing something to help these women instead of just decreasing their options and vanishing silently into the night.
            Honestly, this is irrelevent to the OP. Even if I never did a thing to help a pregnant woman in crisis (though I do through several pro-life organizations), that still does not take away the right to life of children in the womb.

            I think your ideas are great. But it doesn't matter what situation a woman is in....it does not give her the right to kill an innocent life.

            Would you ever suggest that it is okay for a woman in a dire situation to kill a newborn baby? Why, then, is it okay for her to kill a preborn baby?
            My Blog

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            • #21
              Here is a link to an article about Norma McCorvey, the woman known as "Roe" in the case of Roe v. Wade.

              She has had a change of heart and is totally pro-life now! PTL!


              http://www.leaderu.com/common/roev.html


              Jeanne
              Refrain your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears, for your work shall be rewarded declares the Lord, and they (your children) will come back from the land of the enemy. Jeremiah 31:16-17
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Sometimes God lets you hit rock bottom so that you can discover He is the rock at the bottom

              All the forces of darkness cannot stop what God has ordained. Isaiah 14:27

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              • #22
                I am extremely wary of any attempt to legislate Christian morality.

                Yeah, that's right. I think it's a bad idea to put any Christian ideals into law.

                I think law should all be made up entirely of libertarian ideals--i.e., protection for the weak and helpless.

                That includes young women who are in the uneviable position of being pregnant and not knowing what to do about it.

                But that also includes their babies.

                And if that's a problem, so be it.

                Is that a religous ideal? Well, is my belief that people shouldn't steal from me a religious ideal? Is my belief that people shouldn't hit each other a religious ideal?

                ...
                One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father over us all.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
                  Honestly, this is irrelevent to the OP. Even if I never did a thing to help a pregnant woman in crisis (though I do through several pro-life organizations), that still does not take away the right to life of children in the womb.

                  I think your ideas are great. But it doesn't matter what situation a woman is in....it does not give her the right to kill an innocent life.

                  Would you ever suggest that it is okay for a woman in a dire situation to kill a newborn baby? Why, then, is it okay for her to kill a preborn baby?
                  I do not know what OP means. If you are saying that it is irrelevant to take these women's rights away, but not give them an alternative I would say that is not fair. I understand that your point is to protect the rights of the unborn, but you are basically saying that you are OK with infringing on the rights one group to protect another. If that is the case, where does it end? Once you have overturned Roe Versus Wade, who is next on the chopping block? Are you ready to deal with the Pandora's Box that overturning Roe Versus Wade will open? It is not a clear cut, black and white issue. If you take away these women's rights then you better darn sure have something in place to help them and the unborn infants they carry.

                  Oh and when I see you I mean collective you, not you as an individual.

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                  • #24
                    OP = Original Post
                    One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father over us all.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Steve M View Post
                      OP = Original Post
                      Thank you. In that case, I think it is quite relevant.

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                      • #26
                        For what its worth.

                        I think that America is a democracy, set up with systems to create laws. To overturn or suspend those laws for ANY reason be it abortion, national security or spelling reform is dangerous!

                        The debate over whether abortion is moral is not relevant to this issue in my view. Its about whether one can overturn a law because we don;t like it. For any reason.

                        One other point is that making abortion illegal will not stop it happening alltogether. It WILL drive a lot of people to underground clinics. Not saying it won't stop some mind, just not all.

                        Blessings to all

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by A Seeker View Post
                          For what its worth.

                          I think that America is a democracy, set up with systems to create laws. To overturn or suspend those laws for ANY reason be it abortion, national security or spelling reform is dangerous!

                          The debate over whether abortion is moral is not relevant to this issue in my view. Its about whether one can overturn a law because we don;t like it. For any reason.

                          One other point is that making abortion illegal will not stop it happening alltogether. It WILL drive a lot of people to underground clinics. Not saying it won't stop some mind, just not all.

                          Blessings to all
                          Uh, we overturn laws EVERY DAY. That's the whole point of this 'democracy' thing.

                          Courts overturn them. Legislators overturn them. New laws come out every year.

                          Things which were previously legal are found to be morally abhorrent and are no longer legal. See; slavery. Things which were previously illegal and morally abhorrent are found not to effect other people and made legal. See; cohabitation.
                          One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father over us all.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Thirst View Post
                            ...Since Roe v. Wade was implemented, there have been over 50,000,000 abortions. Only two (2!) percent of these cases have been due to 'medical' reasons...
                            Do you have a source for those two points? (I'm not doubting the validity of them) Thanks
                            http://www.mychristiansite.com/personal/vision/ <-- My site. Check it out

                            http://www.freehovind.com Please sign the petition to pardon Kent Hovind.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by I<3Jesus View Post
                              Oh and for the record, I realize this is a heated topic, but could we refrain from attacking the topic starter? I am really trying to sort my feelings out on the issue and want to know where other Christians stand, but I am not comfortable with people making assumptions about my character or attacking my faith. Thanks in advance!
                              Here's my view...

                              Abortion is wrong. Period. It is wrong because it is murder - even though there are those who will hide behind the thinly-veiled definition of murder as being the "illegal" taking of human life.

                              Abortion ends of the life of a pre-born baby. The innocent, pre-born baby is sacrificed because of other people's choices and behavior.

                              This is not a religious issue, per se. It is an issue of murder.


                              That being said, how DARE Christians scream and yell about the atrocities of abortion if we will not also get involved in helping those who face crisis pregnancies! EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to back up those words with a willingness to take in a woman/girl experiencing a crisis pregnancy. EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to adopt a child of crisis pregnancy, if the mother decides to bring the child to term. EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to financially support crisis pregnancy centers - and volunteer at them.

                              Anything less is sheer and utter hypocrisy.

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                              • #30
                                Steve and A Seeker - Good points by both of you and I totally can see where you both are coming from.

                                Edited to add: I <3 Jeffreys.

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