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Pondering Roe versus Wade

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  • #31
    Uh, we overturn laws EVERY DAY. That's the whole point of this 'democracy' thing.

    Courts overturn them. Legislators overturn them. New laws come out every year.

    Things which were previously legal are found to be morally abhorrent and are no longer legal. See; slavery. Things which were previously illegal and morally abhorrent are found not to effect other people and made legal. See; cohabitation.
    Ah.

    Ok

    I just got the idea we were talking about overturning it outside of the system.

    Sorry

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    • #32
      Originally posted by jeffreys View Post
      Here's my view...

      Abortion is wrong. Period. It is wrong because it is murder - even though there are those who will hide behind the thinly-veiled definition of murder as being the "illegal" taking of human life.

      Abortion ends of the life of a pre-born baby. The innocent, pre-born baby is sacrificed because of other people's choices and behavior.

      This is not a religious issue, per se. It is an issue of murder.

      I don't disagree with your view. However in our society, there is the issue of defining when life begins. We as Christians define life beginning at conception. This is not the definition of all people and I don't think of mainstream medical science (but I would love clarification or correction if I have mis-stated).

      Originally posted by jeffreys View Post
      That being said, how DARE Christians scream and yell about the atrocities of abortion if we will not also get involved in helping those who face crisis pregnancies! EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to back up those words with a willingness to take in a woman/girl experiencing a crisis pregnancy. EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to adopt a child of crisis pregnancy, if the mother decides to bring the child to term. EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to financially support crisis pregnancy centers - and volunteer at them.

      Anything less is sheer and utter hypocrisy.
      Absolutely.
      Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
      Ecc 7:10

      John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


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      • #33
        Originally posted by jeffreys View Post
        That being said, how DARE Christians scream and yell about the atrocities of abortion if we will not also get involved in helping those who face crisis pregnancies! EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to back up those words with a willingness to take in a woman/girl experiencing a crisis pregnancy. EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to adopt a child of crisis pregnancy, if the mother decides to bring the child to term. EVERY Christian who says abortion is wrong must be willing to financially support crisis pregnancy centers - and volunteer at them.

        Anything less is sheer and utter hypocrisy.
        No, saying abortion is wrong is a fact. There is no hypocrisy in calling something wrong when it is, indeed, wrong.

        I would be a hypocrite if I called abortion wrong and then had one myself.
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        • #34
          Originally posted by teddyv View Post
          I don't disagree with your view. However in our society, there is the issue of defining when life begins. We as Christians define life beginning at conception. This is not the definition of all people and I don't think of mainstream medical science (but I would love clarification or correction if I have mis-stated).

          Absolutely.
          You're absolutely right.

          On the other hand, we now know that there is a heartbeat before (or shortly after) a woman even finds out she's pregnant. I fail to see how anybody can say that is not a human. And the whole issue of "viable life outside the womb" is becoming extremely tenuous, because premies are able to live at younger ages all the time.

          Personally, I believe that most of the pro-abortionists are not only very narrow in their view, they're standing on slippery ground. When the time comes that a baby is able to live - outside the womb - at 3 months' gestation, how can abortion beyond that point NOT be viewed as murder?

          There are interesting days ahead!

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
            No, saying abortion is wrong is a fact. There is no hypocrisy in calling something wrong when it is, indeed, wrong.

            I would be a hypocrite if I called abortion wrong and then had one myself.
            So it's NOT hypocritical to say abortion is wrong, but refuse to help those who are in crisis pregnancies?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by jeffreys View Post
              So it's NOT hypocritical to say abortion is wrong, but refuse to help those who are in crisis pregnancies?
              No, it's not hypocritical. Abortion is wrong whether I help those who are in crisis pregnancies or not.

              Should we help those in crisis pregnancies? Of course. But life circumstances are not an excuse to kill a child, born or not. A woman in the most dire of circumstances still does not have the right to kill her child.
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              • #37
                Originally posted by I<3Jesus View Post
                No offense, but the incest argument just needs to be dropped. I do not know anyone who thinks it is OK to have sexual relations with their family members. The whole conversation is making me quite ill, so can we refrain from bringing it up anymore?
                Agreed.


                I said my example was flawed. It was like 2 am, cut me some slack. Ha. The point I was trying to make is that you would not stand for another faith dictating what to do with your born or unborn child right? Why on earth do you think that forcing secular people to adhere to your standard is going to bring them to God? Sure there are non secular people who are against abortion too, but the loudest opponents are those whose argument is faith based.
                We force people to adhere to a standard because we believe that standard is right. That's my whole point in bringing up other these other examples. It's not about saying everyone has to be a Christian; it's about saying this practice is morally wrong and should not be tolerated by our society. No one is imposing our faith on anyone else.

                Also, our society absolutely sets standards for what you can do with your children. You can't just say "It's my child, I can do what I want with it."

                I can tell you from having first hand experience in dealing with some of these women that they do not believe in God because they have been beaten down their entire life. They take the stance that there is no God because if there was, why would he let them go through hell. These women have no other choice because there are so very few options for them. Christians flap their gums about wanting to make abortion illegal, which is fine, but what other option are you giving these women? Instead of fighting to push your ideals on them, how about doing something positive to help them. How about helping to build safe houses and organizations to help them carry the child to term in a safe, healthy environment? How about pushing for better legislation when it comes to adoption? How about reforming the current organizations in place that are supposed to help house unwanted children? Do you realize that there are thousands of children in this country that are supposed to be accounted for and in foster homes that have gone missing? Most of which are far too young to be run aways. What happened to them and why isn't anyone looking for them? My point is it is SO easy to point your finger and demand that something be changed on a level in which you have absolutely no responsibility. I just think that we should be doing something to help these women instead of just decreasing their options and vanishing silently into the night.
                These are good points. Certainly there are people who are not prepared to have children. They need help. I don't think abortion is the solution though.
                Woodrow Call: For all you know it invites people to rob us.
                Gus McCrae: Well the first man comes along that can read Latin is welcome to rob us, far as I'm concerned. I'd like a chance t' shoot at a educated man once in my life.


                If I find,
                If I find my own way,
                How much will I find?
                -- Joseph Arthur, In the Sun

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
                  No, it's not hypocritical. Abortion is wrong whether I help those who are in crisis pregnancies or not.
                  Then we are only a "resounding gong, or a clanging cymbal."

                  If you or I know somebody who is in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and refuse to do everything possible to help her bring her baby to term, we are actually abetting an abortion - if that's the route she chooses.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by A Seeker View Post
                    One other point is that making abortion illegal will not stop it happening alltogether. It WILL drive a lot of people to underground clinics. Not saying it won't stop some mind, just not all.
                    Making murder and rape illegal has not stopped it from happening. Both are still illegal because they are wrong and a violation of human rights, just as abortion is.
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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by jeffreys View Post
                      If you or I know somebody who is in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and refuse to do everything possible to help her bring her baby to term, we are actually abetting an abortion - if that's the route she chooses.
                      At what point is the woman accountable for her own actions?
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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Matthew View Post
                        We force people to adhere to a standard because we believe that standard is right. That's my whole point in bringing up other these other examples. It's not about saying everyone has to be a Christian; it's about saying this practice is morally wrong and should not be tolerated by our society. No one is imposing our faith on anyone else.

                        Also, our society absolutely sets standards for what you can do with your children. You can't just say "It's my child, I can do what I want with it."
                        Good points.

                        ........
                        My Blog

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
                          At what point is the woman accountable for her own actions?
                          At what point do we fail to be accountable - before God - to help those in need?

                          Matthew 25:41-45
                          "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

                          "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

                          "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by I<3Jesus View Post
                            I do not know what OP means. If you are saying that it is irrelevant to take these women's rights away, but not give them an alternative I would say that is not fair. I understand that your point is to protect the rights of the unborn, but you are basically saying that you are OK with infringing on the rights one group to protect another.
                            You are going to have to show me how killing an unborn child is a right. There is no imposition on rights where there was no right to begin with.
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                            • #44
                              I would not want abortion made illegal if it didn't make exceptions for rape, incest, or the life of the mother.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by jeffreys View Post
                                At what point do we fail to be accountable - before God - to help those in need?

                                Matthew 25:41-45
                                I never said we shouldn't help those in need. I said we SHOULD help those in need. Let me be very clear on that.

                                But as I am trying to point out...our help or lack thereof has no bearing on whether abortion is wrong or not. It is wrong, period. And there is nothing wrong with shouting that from the top of my lungs. I am not a hypocrite for calling a spade a spade.

                                One problem with our society is that we have taken the murder of unborn children and whitewashed it and called it simply a choice a pregnant woman makes. Let's stop hiding behind the politcally correct lines and call abortion what it is....murder.
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