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Pondering Roe versus Wade

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
    You are going to have to show me how killing an unborn child is a right. There is no imposition on rights where there was no right to begin with.
    To clarify are you suggesting human legal rights (as in Bill of Rights or Charter of Rights).

    If so we come back to the definition of what is alive and therefore entitled to protection under the rights conferred to an individual. Until society, through whatever means, defines life as beginning at conception, then no rights are a legally there for a fetus and it is "legally" not murder (despite what we as Christians believe).

    We need to change the opinions of society at large that life begins at conception, then full protection of our laws and rights would be conferred to the unborn. Should this eventually happen, we then must be fully prepared to back up those who are put into the position of unwanted pregnancy.
    Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
    Ecc 7:10

    John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


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    • #47
      Originally posted by Fenris View Post
      I would not want abortion made illegal if it didn't make exceptions for rape, incest, or the life of the mother.
      Perhaps a topic for another thread? One I will probably come to my senses and stay out of!
      My Blog

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      • #48
        Originally posted by A Seeker View Post
        For what its worth.

        I think that America is a democracy, set up with systems to create laws. To overturn or suspend those laws for ANY reason be it abortion, national security or spelling reform is dangerous!

        The debate over whether abortion is moral is not relevant to this issue in my view. Its about whether one can overturn a law because we don;t like it. For any reason.

        One other point is that making abortion illegal will not stop it happening alltogether. It WILL drive a lot of people to underground clinics. Not saying it won't stop some mind, just not all.

        Blessings to all
        It's interesting that you bring this up, because the situation is actually quite the opposite. It was Roe v. Wade that overturned abortion laws. The Court did so because they found a right of privacy in the Constitution. We're not talking right of privacy like the cops can't bust into your home, as in the Fourth Amendment. We're talking right of privacy that extends to terminating pregnancies.

        Now you may be saying, I don't recall ever seeing anything like that in the Constitution. Well probably because the Court said it isn't expressly there. You have to look in the "penumbras" (i.e. shadows). It's kinda in the First, Fourth, Fifth, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments. They end up saying we think it's in the Fourteenth Amendment, the district court thinks it's in the Ninth Amendment. Wherever it's at it's a broad enough to prevent states from making laws against abortion.
        Woodrow Call: For all you know it invites people to rob us.
        Gus McCrae: Well the first man comes along that can read Latin is welcome to rob us, far as I'm concerned. I'd like a chance t' shoot at a educated man once in my life.


        If I find,
        If I find my own way,
        How much will I find?
        -- Joseph Arthur, In the Sun

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
          You are going to have to show me how killing an unborn child is a right. There is no imposition on rights where there was no right to begin with.
          Sorry Whispering Grace, I probably should have quoted I<3Jesus, not you.
          Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?” For it is not wise to ask such questions.
          Ecc 7:10

          John777 exists to me only in quoted form.


          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by I<3Jesus View Post

            I just read this sentiment in someone's signature line and it got me thinking. First of all I can acknowledge that abortion is a hot topic on both sides, but do we really want to start trying to push our beliefs on the secular world? What happens when that backfires and they start pushing back? What happens when they start pushing their beliefs on us? When they start taking away our rights? I am a Christian, but I do not support overturning Roe versus Wade. My spiritual beliefs should not govern what a non believer has the right to do or not to do. Once you start making statements like the one above, once you start pushing for laws based on your beliefs, you open a can of worms that none of us our ready to deal with. Thoughts?
            So it should be OK for me to go and kill someone? I mean, murder is a moral thing. Didn't you hate it when someone was killed for stealing. But now you are saying we shouldn't prevent murder of an innocent child?

            Isn't that a little inconsistent?

            If every someone deserves protecting, it is defenseless children.
            Matt 9:13
            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
            NASU

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
              You are going to have to show me how killing an unborn child is a right. There is no imposition on rights where there was no right to begin with.
              A woman has a right to do what she wants with her body. As it stands, a woman has a right to terminate a pregnancy. If she didn't, abortion would be illegal already.

              WG - I think perhaps that this may be too passionate of a subject for you.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by teddyv View Post
                To clarify are you suggesting human legal rights (as in Bill of Rights or Charter of Rights).

                If so we come back to the definition of what is alive and therefore entitled to protection under the rights conferred to an individual. Until society, through whatever means, defines life as beginning at conception, then no rights are a legally there for a fetus and it is "legally" not murder (despite what we as Christians believe).

                We need to change the opinions of society at large that life begins at conception, then full protection of our laws and rights would be conferred to the unborn. Should this eventually happen, we then must be fully prepared to back up those who are put into the position of unwanted pregnancy.
                If a pregnancy is not interrupted, the result is a fully functioning, fully autonomous human being. An embryo is fully alive, just in a different cycle of life that a 100 year old man is in. To separate the two as one being "alive" and one "not alive" is absurd. I was the same person when I was a 7 week embryo that I am now, just in a different cycle of the same life.

                The whole "when does life begin" issue is just another smokescreen for the pro-abortion crowd.
                My Blog

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                  I would not want abortion made illegal if it didn't make exceptions for rape, incest, or the life of the mother.
                  I agree, Fenris. Abortion is not a black and white issue. There are many shades of gray. While I can agree that I think it is wrong, I am not going to force a woman who is impregnated through rape or incest to carry the child to term. You are sacrificing one individuals well being for another and last I checked none of us had the right to play God. I am curious to know what people think about a woman who is told that if she does not terminate her pregnancy she will die. Is that committing suicide? Will she go to hell for making the conscious decision to end her own life?

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                    So it should be OK for me to go and kill someone? I mean, murder is a moral thing. Didn't you hate it when someone was killed for stealing. But now you are saying we shouldn't prevent murder of an innocent child?

                    Isn't that a little inconsistent?

                    If every someone deserves protecting, it is defenseless children.
                    Brother Mark - With the utmost respect I am going to decline to engage you in this topic. You have a tendency to, well complicate the complications. Every single thread that you get involved in tends to become a long winded tangent and you often selectively read. I really do not have the patience for that today.

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                    • #55
                      The point remains I<3Jesus. Why is it OK to put our morals on protecting thieves from being shot? But it is wrong to use our morals to protect unborn babies?

                      It's a simple question. Do you not think it a little inconsistent to support one but not the other?
                      Matt 9:13
                      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                      NASU

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by I<3Jesus View Post
                        A woman has a right to do what she wants with her body.
                        A woman's right to do what she wants with her body ends when another life begins.

                        Kind of like how my right to do what I want with my fist ends where another person's face begins. It's the same concept. (I would never hit anyone....just making a point!) We don't have the right to do anything with our bodies if it results in the violation of rights of another person!
                        My Blog

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Whispering Grace View Post
                          A woman's right to do what she wants with her body ends when another life begins.

                          Kind of like how my right to do what I want with my fist ends where another person's face begins. It's the same concept. (I would never hit anyone....just making a point!) We don't have the right to do anything with our bodies if it results in the violation of rights of another person!)
                          Well the government currently disagrees with you on that one.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by I<3Jesus View Post
                            Well the government currently disagrees with you on that one.
                            Kind of like killing thieves. Doesn't make it right though, does it?
                            Matt 9:13
                            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                            NASU

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                            • #59
                              Mark - You can bait me all you want. If anyone else had asked the question I would gladly answer. I am not willing to let this thread get completely tangential for the sake of you trying to prove yourself "right."

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by I<3Jesus View Post
                                Well the government currently disagrees with you on that one.
                                Hopefully not for long.

                                That is why I will never cast a vote for a pro-abortion candidate.
                                My Blog

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