Pondering Roe versus Wade

[Whispering Grace]

I am curious to know what people think about a woman who is told that if she does not terminate her pregnancy she will die. Is that committing suicide? Will she go to hell for making the conscious decision to end her own life?

This really is not a difficult scenario to work out. If both lives truly are in jeopardy, the life of the mother would obviously take precedence over the unborn child. If the child has not reached viability, it would die anyway if the mother died, so there would be no reason not to save the life of the mother.

You have to understand that this scenario is extremely rare (and would most likely be used as a loophole for the abortionists if abortion were ever made illegal).

[Whispering Grace]

Besides, overturning Roe V Wade will allow the individual states to decide.

Just like it should be.

I have to disagree that it should be a states issue. This would just result in legalized abortion in the liberal states only and women in the conservative states crossing state lines to have their abortions.

If abortion is truly a human rights issue, it needs to be addressed on a federal level. A baby in Oregon should have the same right to life as a baby in Texas.

[jeffreys]

One of the first and best things we could do is shut down every Planned Parenthood. It is truly one of the most subversive and evil organizations in this country.

The purpose of making abortion illegal is not to meet the needs of the mother. The purpose of making abortion illegal is to protect the lives of defenseless babies.

There are many pro-life groups Christians could be supporting. There are also Crisis Pregnancy Centers in most major cities (The Fort Worth Pregnancy Center is absolutely wonderful....not only do they save babies, they have lead numerous women to the Lord).

I will say, however, that our potential inability to solve the problem of what to do with the numerous pregnant moms and their babies is NOT a justification for keeping abortion legal.

Our prison system is in crisis right now due to overcrowding and lack of sufficient prisons. Does that mean we should make certain crimes legal to alleviate the problem?

First of all, I'm interested to know how you propose we go about getting Planned Parenthood Clinics all shut down. I'm not talking theory, but a pragmatic step-by-step process. Also, do the people involved in Planned Parenthood have the same right to try to shut down churches?

Then, let's say we manage to shut down every Planned Parenthood Clinic in the country (which I do believe would be great!)... Does that mean there won't be abortions performed elsewhere? Hardly. Where there is a demand, there will always be a service supplied - legal or not.

The problem here is that, regardless of the legality or illegality of abortion, there will still be women in crisis pregnancies. There will always be women who are being pressured to get an abortion. There will always be women who are desperate and feel they have no other choice. Abortion is often a symptom, not the disease itself - and we need to start dealing with diseases rather than just throwing band-aids at symptoms.

This is not an excuse for abortion, but a calling attention to the reality of the situation. Too often we sit in our comfortable, middle-class suburban, white Christian homes and talk ideologies, while doing nothing on a grass-roots level. And though I am NOT referring to you here (please don't be offended by thinking that!), Christians who know a woman in a crisis pregnancy yet will not take her into their home & helping her bring the child to term have absolutely no right to condemn her if she gets an abortion. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that they've actually abetted in the abortion!

[I<3Jesus]

First of all, I'm interested to know how you propose we go about getting Planned Parenthood Clinics all shut down. I'm not talking theory, but a pragmatic step-by-step process. Also, do the people involved in Planned Parenthood have the same right to try to shut down churches?

Then, let's say we manage to shut down every Planned Parenthood Clinic in the country (which I do believe would be great!)... Does that mean there won't be abortions performed elsewhere? Hardly. Where there is a demand, there will always be a service supplied - legal or not.

The problem here is that, regardless of the legality or illegality of abortion, there will still be women in crisis pregnancies. There will always be women who are being pressured to get an abortion. There will always be women who are desperate and feel they have no other choice. Abortion is often a symptom, not the disease itself - and we need to start dealing with diseases rather than just throwing band-aids at symptoms.

This is not an excuse for abortion, but a calling attention to the reality of the situation. Too often we sit in our comfortable, middle-class suburban, white Christian homes and talk ideologies, while doing nothing on a grass-roots level. And though I am NOT referring to you here (please don't be offended by thinking that!), Christians who know a woman in a crisis pregnancy yet will not take her into their home & helping her bring the child to term have absolutely no right to condemn her if she gets an abortion. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that they've actually abetted in the abortion!

Dude, I want to give you a bazillion reps for this post alone.

[Brother Mark]

First of all, I'm interested to know how you propose we go about getting Planned Parenthood Clinics all shut down. I'm not talking theory, but a pragmatic step-by-step process. Also, do the people involved in Planned Parenthood have the same right to try to shut down churches?

Then, let's say we manage to shut down every Planned Parenthood Clinic in the country (which I do believe would be great!)... Does that mean there won't be abortions performed elsewhere? Hardly. Where there is a demand, there will always be a service supplied - legal or not.

The problem here is that, regardless of the legality or illegality of abortion, there will still be women in crisis pregnancies. There will always be women who are being pressured to get an abortion. There will always be women who are desperate and feel they have no other choice. Abortion is often a symptom, not the disease itself - and we need to start dealing with diseases rather than just throwing band-aids at symptoms.

This is not an excuse for abortion, but a calling attention to the reality of the situation. Too often we sit in our comfortable, middle-class suburban, white Christian homes and talk ideologies, while doing nothing on a grass-roots level. And though I am NOT referring to you here (please don't be offended by thinking that!), Christians who know a woman in a crisis pregnancy yet will not take her into their home & helping her bring the child to term have absolutely no right to condemn her if she gets an abortion. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that they've actually abetted in the abortion!

Of course murder is a symptom. No question about that. However, we don't let others murder and murder until we fix the root cause. We also know the root cause is man's fallen nature. It won't ever be fixed outside of Christ.

While I am all for dealing with this issue on a grass roots level, let us not forget how evil this sin really is. It is a very bad thing that should be outlawed. Now, we may not be able to shut down all the planned parenthood places. But nothing wrong with trying.

Just as we should not ignore how environment can breed murders, neither should we ignore how environment can breed abortionist. But let's not give up protecting the victims simply because we understand supply and demand.

[jeffreys]

Of course murder is a symptom. No question about that. However, we don't let others murder and murder until we fix the root cause. We also know the root cause is man's fallen nature. It won't ever be fixed outside of Christ.

While I am all for dealing with this issue on a grass roots level, let us not forget how evil this sin really is. It is a very bad thing that should be outlawed. Now, we may not be able to shut down all the planned parenthood places. But nothing wrong with trying.

Just as we should not ignore how environment can breed murders, neither should we ignore how environment can breed abortionist. But let's not give up protecting the victims simply because we understand supply and demand.

I agree - which is why I have repeatedly said, in this thread, that abortion should be made illegal. Nowhere will anybody see that I have written anything even remotely close to "abortion must be kept safe and legal".

In addition, however, Christians MUST deal with the FACT that there will always be people seeking abortions. And just making it illegal will not stop that, anymore than marijuana being illegal keeps people from smoking it.

[Brother Mark]

I agree - which is why I have repeatedly said, in this thread, that abortion should be made illegal. Nowhere will anybody see that I have written anything even remotely close to "abortion must be kept safe and legal".

In addition, however, Christians MUST deal with the FACT that there will always be people seeking abortions. And just making it illegal will not stop that, anymore than marijuana being illegal keeps people from smoking it.

Absolutely! As a matter of fact, I would say that given the current political climate, we would be far better off focusing on more ministry towards women and needy children than the politics of changing the law. (Not saying we should ignore the process of getting the law changed though.)

And of course, murder is illegal, yet murder still occurs. Outlawing abortion won't make it go away even if it does limit it.

[I<3Jesus]

OK, so the majority of the people in this thread keep saying that abortion is murder (not that I am disagreeing, I am just trying to get something straight) and murder is against the law, yet abortion is still legal. I am guessing that is because those who are pro choice have a different definition of life than the pro lifers. It basically comes down to whether or not you consider an embryo a child right?

[A Seeker]

Absolutely! As a matter of fact, I would say that given the current political climate, we would be far better off focusing on more ministry towards women and needy children than the politics of changing the law. (Not saying we should ignore the process of getting the law changed though.)

And of course, murder is illegal, yet murder still occurs. Outlawing abortion won't make it go away even if it does limit it.

Bro mark and jeffreys. Hero's of common sense in an emotive and difficult debate.

Its sometimes hard to see the real issues in amoungst all the outrage and declamatory shouts on this issue. Well done for getting to the nub.

Its good to hear.

[jeffreys]

Absolutely! As a matter of fact, I would say that given the current political climate, we would be far better off focusing on more ministry towards women and needy children than the politics of changing the law. (Not saying we should ignore the process of getting the law changed though.)

And of course, murder is illegal, yet murder still occurs. Outlawing abortion won't make it go away even if it does limit it.

Right.

Now... here's one that's very interesting to me. Many people vehemently HATE George W Bush - and feel very justified in doing so. But look at who Bush appointed, and got confirmed, to the Supreme Court! If Roe v Wade is ever overturned - at the Supreme Court level - Pro-Life people darned well better be lining up to thank George W Bush!

[Brother Mark]

Right.

Now... here's one that's very interesting to me. Many people vehemently HATE George W Bush - and feel very justified in doing so. But look at who Bush appointed, and got confirmed, to the Supreme Court! If Roe v Wade is ever overturned - at the Supreme Court level - Pro-Choice people darned well better be lining up to thank George W Bush!

You mean pro-life folks, right?

[jeffreys]

OK, so the majority of the people in this thread keep saying that abortion is murder (not that I am disagreeing, I am just trying to get something straight) and murder is against the law, yet abortion is still legal. I am guessing that is because those who are pro choice have a different definition of life than the pro lifers. It basically comes down to whether or not you consider an embryo a child right?

You've hit something square on the head of the nail right there!

"Murder" is illegal - therefore, many pro-choice people will argue that abortion is not murder, because abortion is not illegal.

But that's just word play. It's like if I weighed 415 lbs, but insisted I wasn't "fat" - but just "heavy". Call it what we want, everybody knows what it is. Semantics can't cover over reality!

[I<3Jesus]

Right.

Now... here's one that's very interesting to me. Many people vehemently HATE George W Bush - and feel very justified in doing so. But look at who Bush appointed, and got confirmed, to the Supreme Court! If Roe v Wade is ever overturned - at the Supreme Court level - Pro-Choice people darned well better be lining up to thank George W Bush!

I just do not like him because I think he is a terrible example of what a leader should be. I do not want my kids to think that partying your way through life yields positive results. The only way that works out is if mommy and daddy are affluent people of means.

The man can barely speak English, do you really think he is smart enough to run the country? Or even grasp the repercussions of his actions while in office? Bush is sort of like a Republican meat puppet LOL!

[jeffreys]

You mean pro-life folks, right?

D'Oh!

Must go back and quickly edit!
Must go back and quickly edit!

[jeffreys]

I just do not like him because I think he is a terrible example of what a leader should be. I do not want my kids to think that partying your way through life yields positive results. The only way that works out is if mommy and daddy are affluent people of means.

The man can barely speak English, do you really think he is smart enough to run the country? Or even grasp the repercussions of his actions while in office? Bush is sort of like a Republican meat puppet LOL!

Ehhh... topic for another thread!