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  • Question about Noahic flood

    If Noah had two wolves on the Ark [most likely the two members of the Canine family would have been wolves], how did we get all the dogs, jackals, foxes, coyotes, dingoes etc that we see today?

    Keeping in mind these animals have been around for a long time so 4000 years or less is a blink of an eye in terms of speciation.
    For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

  • #2
    Originally posted by Ciscokid View Post
    If Noah had two wolves on the Ark [most likely the two members of the Canine family would have been wolves], how did we get all the dogs, jackals, foxes, coyotes, dingoes etc that we see today?

    Keeping in mind these animals have been around for a long time so 4000 years or less is a blink of an eye in terms of speciation.
    Why are we assuming there were only wolves?
    I'm going to have to say that Noah brought jackals, foxes, coyotes, dingoes and dogs on the ark as well.

    DNA does hold a lot of genetic code (it stores a lot of history).
    It's easy for divergence to occur in a small period of time because of environment and natural breeding within species.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
      Why are we assuming there were only wolves?
      I'm going to have to say that Noah brought jackals, foxes, coyotes, dingoes and dogs on the ark as well.

      DNA does hold a lot of genetic code (it stores a lot of history).
      It's easy for divergence to occur in a small period of time because of environment and natural breeding within species.

      This was a response I was expecting because it seems to easily solve the problem. It only creates another one. If what you say is true, then Noah needed all the "sub" kinds of each and every animal. Did he also have many different pairs of the feline family [which is HUGE]?

      Once you start down this path then Noah would need a boat the size of a city to hold all these animals.

      Also, the Bible specifically says "kinds"...meaning one pair of ONE kind of animal...not many pairs of one kind.
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

      Comment


      • #4
        God needed just Adam and Eve to gets the billions of 'different' people on this earth. Scientists have narrowed dna down to 3 people - how long till they are clever enough to get it to 2 or 1? So i see no problem in 2 of each animal making as many types as we see today - infact comparing to the human example, i would find it very odd if they hadn't developed to be so many and so different.
        1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

        Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul?

        KJV

        May the power of the Spirit of our God unite us. SofTy.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ServantofTruth View Post
          God needed just Adam and Eve to gets the billions of 'different' people on this earth. Scientists have narrowed dna down to 3 people - how long till they are clever enough to get it to 2 or 1? So i see no problem in 2 of each animal making as many types as we see today - infact comparing to the human example, i would find it very odd if they hadn't developed to be so many and so different.

          The problem isn't whether we can get can get all the "different" members of the canine family from two wolves. It's how we got them in just a couple thousand years or so [with only one original pair].
          For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Ciscokid,

            This article may interest you:
            A pair of dogs/wolves on Noah’s Ark couldn’t have produced all dog varieties today?

            (the red letters are Richard A. Meiss', (Ph.D) response).

            edit: fixed link
            http://www.mychristiansite.com/personal/vision/ <-- My site. Check it out

            http://www.freehovind.com Please sign the petition to pardon Kent Hovind.

            Comment


            • #7
              Ciscokid - My next point would be that God needs zero wolves to get all the different types. Also he doesn't need time thousands of years or one second. God being outside of time and space, can enter any moment and all moments at once.
              It's NOT a matter of creation, the flood and then evolution. God has been active in every second since creation and always will be! Jesus was God 'breaking through' in a very visible way. A birth by holy spirit, not physical relations. Miracles - water to wine, curing the sick, raising the dead, multiplying food. Not magic, but a God who wrote the rules of nature/ science, proving he can in a moment re-write them!
              Perhaps you should be thinking - why did he need 2 wolves and so much time? May my words open your mind and heart to Jesus Christ.
              May i ask you how much of the bible you have read? Are you willing to continue reading and ask us more questions? I hope in 2008 we can all become your good friends. God bless, Servant of Truth.
              1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

              Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul?

              KJV

              May the power of the Spirit of our God unite us. SofTy.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ciscokid View Post
                If Noah had two wolves on the Ark [most likely the two members of the Canine family would have been wolves], how did we get all the dogs, jackals, foxes, coyotes, dingoes etc that we see today?

                Keeping in mind these animals have been around for a long time so 4000 years or less is a blink of an eye in terms of speciation.

                I see you have been stuck on this whole flood thing for some time...
                Have you ever just for a moment considered the theology of creation and the flood and passing through the red sea, and baptism? Maybe you are so busy looking at physical things that you want to find impossible, but you should be looking at what it was all about in the first place. The noahaic flood goes far deeper than just cleansing the earth of sin. It is representative of the new creation that is born from the old creation, which was born out of water....


                Gen 1:1¶In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
                Gen 1:2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
                Gen 1:3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

                Gen 1:4And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
                Gen 1:5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

                Gen 1:6¶And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

                Gen 1:7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.

                Gen 1:8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
                Gen 1:9¶And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.


                Gen 1:10And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.



                Gen 1:26¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

                the creation of man was on the 6th day....the last of His creation...or was it?

                Read was Jesus said about a grain of wheat falling to the ground and dying, and read about the baptism and new creation.

                I'll leave you to your thoughts.
                Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ciscokid View Post
                  This was a response I was expecting because it seems to easily solve the problem. It only creates another one. If what you say is true, then Noah needed all the "sub" kinds of each and every animal. Did he also have many different pairs of the feline family [which is HUGE]?

                  Once you start down this path then Noah would need a boat the size of a city to hold all these animals.

                  Also, the Bible specifically says "kinds"...meaning one pair of ONE kind of animal...not many pairs of one kind.
                  Not at all, if you believe, like Richard Dawkins, that DNA is archival, then you have within sets of DNA the ability to produce many different varieties of things. Coming from the thousand(s?) of years between the Fall and the Flood, this isn't unheard of.

                  The only thing needed for these dormant genes to activate?
                  The right conditions.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Paul_born_again View Post
                    Hi Ciscokid,

                    This article may interest you:
                    A pair of dogs/wolves on Noah’s Ark couldn’t have produced all dog varieties today?

                    (the red letters are Richard A. Meiss', (Ph.D) response).

                    edit: fixed link

                    After reading this it all boils down to "possiblities". Mathematical possibilities. It's mathematically possible [chance] that Africa will average a foot of snow.....but will it?

                    I highly doubt if we put two wolves on a large island, came back to visit 2500 years later or so there would be jackals and hyenas. That is more evolution than most biologists believe in.
                    For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
                      Not at all, if you believe, like Richard Dawkins, that DNA is archival, then you have within sets of DNA the ability to produce many different varieties of things. Coming from the thousand(s?) of years between the Fall and the Flood, this isn't unheard of.

                      The only thing needed for these dormant genes to activate?
                      The right conditions.

                      Such as...

                      Speciation is a pretty slow process...2000 years is not very long at all. Wolves with different color coats or different features...yes. Wolves -> Hyenas....not so much.
                      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ServantofTruth View Post
                        Ciscokid - My next point would be that God needs zero wolves to get all the different types. Also he doesn't need time thousands of years or one second. God being outside of time and space, can enter any moment and all moments at once.
                        It's NOT a matter of creation, the flood and then evolution. God has been active in every second since creation and always will be! Jesus was God 'breaking through' in a very visible way. A birth by holy spirit, not physical relations. Miracles - water to wine, curing the sick, raising the dead, multiplying food. Not magic, but a God who wrote the rules of nature/ science, proving he can in a moment re-write them!
                        Perhaps you should be thinking - why did he need 2 wolves and so much time? May my words open your mind and heart to Jesus Christ.
                        May i ask you how much of the bible you have read? Are you willing to continue reading and ask us more questions? I hope in 2008 we can all become your good friends. God bless, Servant of Truth.

                        Invoking miracles when there are "gaps" in an argument does not offer anything. It's just another way of saying "I don't know". It's ok to just say that.
                        For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ciscokid View Post
                          Invoking miracles when there are "gaps" in an argument does not offer anything. It's just another way of saying "I don't know". It's ok to just say that.

                          where there are ASSUMED gaps, could very well be a failing of man to understand....or just simply accept the idea of miracles. After all, we ARE talking about God, are we not? therefore, it would be natural to assume one of the two situations, a failure of man's "great" and INFINITE intellect, or a miracle.
                          Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ciscokid View Post
                            Invoking miracles when there are "gaps" in an argument does not offer anything. It's just another way of saying "I don't know". It's ok to just say that.
                            Why not? Darwinian evolutionary theory has tons of 'gaps', into which they insert 'time' as the magic ingredient. As to the timing for speciation, the majority of modern dog breeds have come about in just the last few centuries so 4000+ years seems like plenty of time to me.

                            God Bless!
                            II Timothy 2:15
                            Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                            Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ciscokid View Post
                              Such as...

                              Speciation is a pretty slow process...2000 years is not very long at all. Wolves with different color coats or different features...yes. Wolves -> Hyenas....not so much.
                              Coming from an evolutionary standpoint, you accept that the chances of life rising spontaneously to be 10^40,000:1. So, let's not talk about 'not so much' when a point disagrees with our preconceptions.

                              That said, hyenas and wolves are different.
                              If we were to talk about Noah, he would have brought on wolves, and hyenas (or whatever two species which interbred to create wolves or hyenas)
                              Wolves and hyenas aren't branching evolutionary paths.

                              Comment

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