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  • Soldiers kill on orders - Can a Christian?

    A christian in the armed forces makes no sense to me. Yes we have discussed this on a few topics, so lets air it all here, and see where it leads.
    I define a soldier as someone who kills on the orders of someone else, without considering the rights or wrongs of that killing. There take a pay cheque to give up moral responsibility. But i believe God will ask them one day why they killed and injured each person they are responsible for.
    How can a christian join the army of their country? That country may not even be christian. Even if it is, any decision to invade like Iraq or Afganistan may not seem right in that christian soldier's view or their church's. Will they refuse to go or will they put a 'worldly' decision before their faith/ being saved.
    Would you personally kill people in situations you consider unneccessary/ unchristian? Or once joining does faith come second or further down the list? Would you go to war against another christian country? Would you attend church pray to God and know those you are fighting are doing the same, but then try to kill them? Surely satan must laugh watching christians killing eachother. Especially if he controls the political masters minds and hearts.
    I just shake my head at christians who can kill on the orders of non christians. Who can kill and say i don't care why i killed that human being/ my neighbour. We are called to be different from the people of this world...satans world. We should be looking to a heavenly kingdom, not trying to win land, oil, money, power, bullying people for world domination.
    Over to you guys - i have respected the arguements, without agreeing with them, in the past. I feel strongly on this issue and i'm sure you do. But my i express my belief in the faith of all poster and love for eachother.
    1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

    Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul?

    KJV

    May the power of the Spirit of our God unite us. SofTy.

  • #2
    I am not a Christian but I thank God that there are Christians willing to fight to protect this country.

    Comment


    • #3
      Your definition of a soldier is pretty flawed and the reason behind your opinion. A soldier doesn't kill because of orders. A soldier stands between danger and those who either can't or won't stand on their own.

      Warfare is also a means of obtaining resources which become scarce as the population increases, if you disagree, then I suggest you vacate whatever land you live on because I gurantee that whatever culture you are apart of, it was bought and paid for in blood. Your current lifestyle is only possible because many people of different cultures killed and died for it.

      The spread of Christianity was possible only because swords and spears carried it across the world. Do you think preachers converted the Danes? The Gaels or Celts? Christianity followed Mithras and the Legions throughout Europe, but only secured itself through the shield-wall.

      I find it sad when people tell me that since we have heaven to look forward to then we shouldn't strive to achieve anything on Earth. What kind of low-expectation having, lack of motivation/drive, defeatist, overly-contented attitude is this? Because we have heaven, we should just let Earth rot, right? That is the attitude that allows evil to fester.

      Here's an idea. Instead of saying that one thing is just plain bad and it should just be taken away because its so uber wrong, we should just realise that everything is interconnected and has a purpose.

      Surely satan must laugh watching christians killing eachother
      I doubt it.

      I say this because I doubt that most people who say they are Christians actually are, and if I were a lord of lies and hell, I would have much better machinations than a few pesky wars that sweep up a few pesky christians. Instead, I would have people indoctrinated over time so that they slowly lose their passion for things, and as they lose their passion for things they become easily dominated and directed. I see this happening, and I think that is a bit more dangerous that most things.

      Would you personally kill people in situations you consider unneccessary/ unchristian?
      No on both. Soldiers (at least US Army) are trained to disable people without killing them when possible, and it's far more common for OPFOR (in Iraq and A-Stan) to be arrested rather than killed. If they are killed it's because they have left commanders with no other choice. Personally I disagree with that somewhat, but ROE is ROE.

      I think that question itself speaks volumnes of your opinion, and I get the impression that you consider soldiers to be nothing but rabid men frothing at the mouth, angrily caressing their weapons, taut and tight ready to kill.

      Sorry, it's not like that, most soldiers are reluctant killers. I am not one, but I am only a soldier for 6 more days.

      I define a soldier as someone who kills on the orders of someone else, without considering the rights or wrongs of that killing
      I looked at this again and it made me laugh. Look, you have a pretty weird idea of what soldiers are, and I'm not surprised because it's pretty common, but whatever I am simply a berzerker and couldn't change your opinion if I tried. You just need to understand that although we call them soldiers, not every member of an Army is a soldier, most unfortunately are not, most are simply mercenaries who take their pay and do whatever they're told.


      *edit*

      One other thing. Why should we, as Christians, demand that non-Christians fight for us?
      The minstrel boy to the war is gone,
      In the ranks of death ye will find him;
      His father's sword he hath girded on,
      And his wild harp slung behind him;
      "Land of Song!" said the warrior bard,
      "Tho' all the world betray thee,
      One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard,
      One faithful harp shall praise thee!

      Comment


      • #4
        Once more, as pointed out, your reasoning is without scriptural basis and is demonstrated to be of the world by the lack of scriptural reference. In another thread I gave a number of references for the counter opinion and that was not nearly exhaustive. You are seeking after the approval of men and that will not stand you in good stead at the foot of the throne. When you make Jesus the Lord of your life you swear to obey His every command. The act of questioning His decisions is akin to the same sin Lucifer committed. To stand in defiance of His command is heresy.
        .. Without good Christian men to defend this country, you would not even to be able to make this statement without being killed. Disbelieve me? Check the Qu'ran and the countries that are ruled by it's laws. And you believe the Islamic PR? Examine those countries that have peacably fallen under their rule, it'll show you a truth you will fear as nothing you've ever feared before.
        .. Know the truth and you will be set free.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thank God for the Christian men and women who are willing to sacrifice their lives to protect our freedom. I do not understand where you are coming from at all.

          Comment


          • #6
            Clavicula Nox - may i reply to some of your points. I am not clever with computers and don't know how to quote parts of your message and reply to each. So i hope you will be patient, as i do a few posts.

            I do not think that christianity was spread by war or violence of any kind. As posted on many topics on this site, the bible stated reason for a person being saved is the work of the Holy Spirit. People came face to face with Jesus Christ/ God and many still denied him and were lost. The Romans conquered Israel, did the Jews give up their faith, and later when Christianity began and grew and so many died horrible deaths for their faith, were they converted to Emporer worship? No. Violence and death does not spread faith, the power of God's Holy Spirit does. Please withdraw that arguement.
            1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

            Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul?

            KJV

            May the power of the Spirit of our God unite us. SofTy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Warfare is a way of obtaining resources and to paraphrase 'i should be grateful or give up my life style.' So the ends justify the means. If we have to kill to get land, oil, wealth - it's ok? That's not a biblical arguement. I agree that i am lucky to live in the West, with a roof, heating, more food than i could ever eat. What would you have me do? Surely we should share our wealth, not use it to dominate. I'm all for giving 10 times, 100 times as much food to the 3rd world and yes i'll be happy to have a more simple life style. The military are experts in transport and distribution who better to distribute our resources to the 3rd world.
              1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

              Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul?

              KJV

              May the power of the Spirit of our God unite us. SofTy.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ServantofTruth View Post
                Warfare is a way of obtaining resources and to paraphrase 'i should be grateful or give up my life style.' So the ends justify the means. If we have to kill to get land, oil, wealth - it's ok? That's not a biblical arguement. I agree that i am lucky to live in the West, with a roof, heating, more food than i could ever eat. What would you have me do? Surely we should share our wealth, not use it to dominate. I'm all for giving 10 times, 100 times as much food to the 3rd world and yes i'll be happy to have a more simple life style. The military are experts in transport and distribution who better to distribute our resources to the 3rd world.
                I think you are mistaking your opinion of events for the actual reason behind them. I am cynical enough to realize that we are not in Iraq merely to free the oppressed people, but that is an opinion. I have no doubts that the servicemen and women think they are over there fighting the good fight. It cracks me up that you are willing to denounce a Christian who choses to be a soldier to protect our rights to worship God (among others), but you will defend an atheist whose sole purpose for writing a series of books is to detract people from Christianity.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ServantofTruth View Post
                  Warfare is a way of obtaining resources and to paraphrase 'i should be grateful or give up my life style.' So the ends justify the means. If we have to kill to get land, oil, wealth - it's ok? That's not a biblical arguement. I agree that i am lucky to live in the West, with a roof, heating, more food than i could ever eat. What would you have me do? Surely we should share our wealth, not use it to dominate. I'm all for giving 10 times, 100 times as much food to the 3rd world and yes i'll be happy to have a more simple life style. The military are experts in transport and distribution who better to distribute our resources to the 3rd world.
                  Allow me to quote the former head of Hizbullah: "We are not fighting for you to give us something. We are fighting to eliminate you."

                  When dealing with people like that, there are only two outcomes: either you kill them, or they kill you. Giving them food is only going to help them kill you.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    How can a Christian ignore Romans 13? Governments are wielded by God to show his vengance. It's all about authority.

                    How will God judge Joshua and Moses? We already know and they were both generals/soldiers. Perhaps I should mention Joshua, or Debra or Gideon, or King David. I could go on and on but I would likely run out of space.
                    Matt 9:13
                    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                    NASU

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                      Allow me to quote the former head of Hizbullah: "We are not fighting for you to give us something. We are fighting to eliminate you."

                      When dealing with people like that, there are only two outcomes: either you kill them, or they kill you. Giving them food is only going to help them kill you.
                      All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
                      Matt 9:13
                      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                      NASU

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You say a soldier doesn't kill on orders. He stands between those who can't or won't defend themselves and danger. This sounds good until you actually look at the last 100 years and history just says its not true.
                        Mass killings in Africa, we knew millions were going to be killed by strong forces well in advance - the whole world stood and watched it happen. I remember the tv and radio for weeks saying we know this is going to happen , will the USA or Europe stop it. No was the answer. China commits murder on its own people daily and noone goes to war with them. I'm certainly no expert, but others on this site i'm sure could list countries all over this planet killing hundreds, thousands a year that our armies just stay away and let happen.
                        So that's the moral wars that aren't fought. The christian armies/ soldiers letting their neighbours die every day of the year and knowing its going on. Lets turn to where these soldiers are sent and by who.
                        Who decides where a soldier goes? Does the man or woman see those in trouble and 'stand between them and danger?' In my country the Prime Minister and parliament decide on wars. Some times the PM can 'get round' parliament and just send troops. Take the invasion of the Fawkland Islands by Argentina. A peaceful invasion, and nobody was in danger of harm, let alone death. So because we, the UK say that Island 1,000's of miles away is ours we send troops to their death. Why? To protect their faith? No - who says if any of them are even christian? To protect their remote farms, sheep and other animals. No. Niether Argentina or the UK could care less about a few farmers, their farms or small scraped livings.
                        2 reasons. Ego - we own this not you. We're stronger than you. And yes like Saudi Arabis, Iraq, Iran and so many other counties OIL!
                        Can a christian soldier fight for oil? When no lives are at risk. The ownership of the land has been disputed for centuries. When niether side even wants the land! They don't want farms, sheep, barran rocks. Both sides could let it be independant and use their wasted resourses to help these farmers.
                        I'll bet there were christian soldiers in that war - perhaps on both sides? Did they kill in a 'just' cause?
                        1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

                        Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul?

                        KJV

                        May the power of the Spirit of our God unite us. SofTy.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Servant - You have been a member here long enough to learn how to use the quote button and to use proper paragraph form. Your posts make my eyes bleed. It is really hard for me to follow you long enough to address anything you are trying to say. You can always open Microsoft Word and type your responses in there. Just some friendly advice. There is really no excuse for having a poor posting style unless English is not your first language. Please do not think I am being mean, that is not my intention.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I do not think that christianity was spread by war or violence of any kind. As posted on many topics on this site, the bible stated reason for a person being saved is the work of the Holy Spirit. People came face to face with Jesus Christ/ God and many still denied him and were lost. The Romans conquered Israel, did the Jews give up their faith, and later when Christianity began and grew and so many died horrible deaths for their faith, were they converted to Emporer worship? No. Violence and death does not spread faith, the power of God's Holy Spirit does. Please withdraw that arguement
                            No thanks, history is quite clear on this and supports me. Besides, violence was done to Jesus and his death is what we all get excited about in the first place, right? Just because the Jews didn't convert to worship the Greco-Roman Gods doesn't invalidate what I said, I would speculate that their level of persecution was small compared to the persecution Christians reaped on the world's pagans. After all, they could have temples and what not without much fear of being mass murdered, their temples destroyed, and their beliefs defiled. The same of which cannot be said for non-Christians in areas that Christians eventually gained dominance in.

                            Disagree? I don't care, again, history is pretty clear on this.


                            *edit*

                            Servant of Truth, I suggest you look at your own land's history specifically around 500 AD and the mid to late 800's AD and tell me that swords, spears, hanging ropes, torches, and reaping hooks did not either force Christianity on the land or defend it from invaders.
                            The minstrel boy to the war is gone,
                            In the ranks of death ye will find him;
                            His father's sword he hath girded on,
                            And his wild harp slung behind him;
                            "Land of Song!" said the warrior bard,
                            "Tho' all the world betray thee,
                            One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard,
                            One faithful harp shall praise thee!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              At last we have a bible quote - Roman Chapter 13. You are right a christian should never ignore the bible. It makes some very good points for my arguement.
                              Not least Romans 13:10 'No one who loves others will harm them. So love is all that the law demands.' I will be very pleased to look at the wider context of the verses around this verse too.
                              Romans 13 begins with obeying rulers, because God puts them in authority. But this means obeying in the way Jesus taught us. Yes giving taxes to the Romans and our hearts and minds to God.
                              What would be my way of obeying if i were a christian in Iraq? If they wanted me to be a soldier? Could i disobey authority then? If they said the war was 'just.' Wait a minute i'd be applying moral principles. I'd be saying i'm a christian and my 'bible principles' say i can't join your army - even if i was born an Iraq citizen. But i have to obey authority i think you'd say...or is there a get out clause?
                              Lastly the Moses, Joshua arguement is unworthy. They were commanded directly from God. Moses spoke face to face with God. I don't think Gordon Brown in the UK or President Bush in the USA talk face to face with God.
                              1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

                              Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul?

                              KJV

                              May the power of the Spirit of our God unite us. SofTy.

                              Comment

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