Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The sabbath, the feast days and the law nailed to the cross

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The sabbath, the feast days and the law nailed to the cross

    First of all I want to let everyone know I am not registered to drop a link and leave, I just finished writing an article, actually 2 articles on the sabbath and wanted your opinions.

    The second and latest is about the Sabbath, feast days and the law nailed to the cross.
    http://www.ebibleanswers.com/blog/le...-sabbath-days/

    I want mostly feedback on this article... I would like the opinion of mostly sunday-keepers, have I done a good job of presenting it. What are arguments you would still use after reading the WHOLE article?

    I really want your feedback, of course I know i'll get some feedback on the site but thought I would see what you guys say. I realize the article is good size but if some of you could read it and let me know your thoughts i'd appreciate it.

    Thanks!

  • #2
    I have started to read your article, but will have to finish it later.

    What i am getting out of it so far is interesting, and i'd like to discuss it later.


    Shalom,
    Tanja
    Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
    2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
    If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
    http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



    Comment


    • #3
      I'll look at it and get back with you.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
        I have started to read your article, but will have to finish it later.

        What i am getting out of it so far is interesting, and i'd like to discuss it later.


        Shalom,
        Tanja
        Exactly what I am looking for... look forward to that.

        Comment


        • #5
          I have read your article in it's entirety, and have found that I agree with your main thrust regarding the seventh day. There are a few points that I do not entirely go along with, and a few suggestions.

          Overall, I find your understanding of the two laws and of the seventh day sabbath to be quite good. You have done a good bit of study and work putting this together.
          One thing I did NOT see anywhere in your study is the fact that we ALL have sinned, that is, broken those eternal commandments of God, and thus we are all already guilty of them all, regardless how well we try to obey them now, and that when we are judged, it will be found that we indeed are guilty of the whole law of God. And death will result. However, the free gift of the death of Christ in our place will, if we accept it now in this life, satisfy the law, and His death will take the place of our death, thereby setting us free from death's curse. Or we can suffer our own death. The choice is ours. But, regardless how much we try, we simply CANNOT EARN our way into heaven. So, should we keep the law? Absolutely! Should we do it in order to be deemed 'good enough' to enter heaven? A foolish and vain venture. We have already broken the law. Having broken it, we cannot cover it up by trying harder and being good. Only the blood of Christ, that is, His death on the cross, can 'cover it'.

          About the Feasts
          You assert that the Feasts have been fulfilled, which is true, partially, and that they have been done away with, which is true to an extent. However, consider this:
          They are called 'Feasts of the Lord', as opposed to 'feasts of the Jews'.
          Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, [Concerning] the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim [to be] holy convocations, [even] these [are] my feasts.
          2Ch 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate [it] to him, [and] to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This [is an ordinance] for ever to Israel.
          Ezr 3:5 And afterward [offered] the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.
          As we know, the feasts were prophetic, speaking of the coming and work of Christ, and were indeed fulfilled by Him. But I would submit to you that they are not yet done being fulfilled.
          They pointed, and point, to the historical event of the Passover, the yearly harvests, and God dwelling with the Israelites in the wilderness.
          They pointed to the Lamb of God Who was sacrificed, and became the Firstfruits of them that believe, to His birth and tabernacling with man on earth in the form of a man, and of His Kingship, and the Atonement that He wrought for us.
          Some at least also point forward to a time yet to come, when the wedding is come, and the groom comes and takes away his bride to His father's house, and the marriage feast of the Lamb, of the final judgment and atonement, and of His return to earth to set up His kingdom and once again dwell on earth with men, as reigning King.
          They were indeed shadows of things to come, but not all has come yet. I would encourage you to do an indepth study of those shadows. They are there, after all, for us to learn from.
          We will keep sabbath in heaven
          And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD
          One of the strongest arguments for the Sabbath is the fact that we will be keeping it in heaven -
          apparently we will be keeping the new moons as well, which is included in your statements regarding the Mosaic law which was done away with and nailed to the cross. Hmmmm. Along this line, also look at Zechariah 14 -
          Zechariah 14:16-18 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (17) And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. (18) And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

          About the Shadows
          You have stated in your study that before sin, there could be no shadows. I disagree, because even before sin, it was known of God that man would sin. The seven days of creation are themselves shadows, including the seventh day. Of what? Several things, one being Christ Himself.
          Consider this:
          In the beginning you were made, but sin was found in you, and you were filled with darkness and chaos. But the Holy Spirit hovered over you, and nudged you, and soon, the light of the gospel was presented to you, which you beheld, and the light of truth and salvation was created within you.
          But, your carnality remained. Thus God divided the light within you from the darkness that remained within you.
          And you were reborn, spiritually, and in spirit you were raised up and are now seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, but your flesh remains below. Thus, a division, a firmament, was formed within you, separating that which is holy and righteous and lifted up within you from that which is lowly and corrupt, dead and buried.
          And God raised up within you a solid foundation, and caused life to sprout within you, bearing good seed, and good fruit.
          And the Holy Spirit wrote upon your heart the law of God, to rule your walk both in the light and in the darkness, a light to lighten your path.
          And God caused greater forms of life to form within you, not only those heavenly things, but caused even your own soul to bring forth new life, and as you share the gospel with others, that new life is formed, and it multiplies itself, for those you bring to life bring others to life.
          And eventually, you will finally be formed into the very likeness of Christ Himself. And then, His work in you will be finished, and He, and you, shall find rest, in that day with no darkness and no end.

          The shadows of the days of creation not only speak of you yourself, and the creative work God has wrought in you, but it also speaks of Christ.
          The world without Christ is dark and void, but Christ is the light of the world. And it is He who separates the darkness from the light, the sheep from the goats, the saved from the unsaved.
          He entered the waters of death, and was raised up again in new life.
          In His is life, and life more abundantly. He planted the seed of truth, and that seed sprouts forth into new life, bearing seed and fruit. He was the firstfruits. He is the corn that is crushed, the bread of life, and the Harvester.
          It is He who lightens the day, and the night, and who establishes the times and seasons, and rules over the day and the night.
          He is the dove and the eagle, the whale and the fishes, he is the lamb, the bullock, the lion of Judah. He is the Second Man, and He is the Rest.

          You can also, if you dig, find a correlation between the seven days of creation, the seven feasts, the seven furnishings of the tabernacle, the seven patriarchs of Genesis, seven aspects of the exodus from Egypt, the seven letters and seven churches of Revelation, and the seven millenia of man on earth. These all tie together, and each of the seven of each speak of the same precepts.
          Example: Day one, light is created and darkness separated. Feast one separated the Israelites, and us, from the curse of death, the first furnishing is the altar of sacrifice, which separated them from their sin, and our Sacrifice separates us from sin.
          Day two was the dividing of the waters, feast two was the dividing of the leaven, the second aspect of the exodus was the dividing of the waters of the Red Sea, the second furnishing is the brazen laver in which the water separated them from the filth of their hands.
          Day three was the raising of the land and vegetation, the third feast is the raising up of the firstfruits, the third aspect of the exodus is the provision of manna, the third furnishing is the table of shewbread and fruit of the vine.
          Etc. You can study out the rest of it. It will facinate you.

          About the Priesthood
          You have stated that the priesthood is done away with, and you are correct, to an extent. However, consider this:
          Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
          Notice it says 'changed', not 'done away'. So how was it changed?
          1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
          We are now the priests of God. If you are prepared to do a really comprehensive and indepth study on the priesthood of the OT, and compare it to what we as NT saints are commanded, you will find that every single detail of the priesthood has it's counterpart in the NT.
          If you would like to see a 'brief' study on this, you can check it out here: http://www.gleanings.cprministries.net. I am still in the process of developing certain portions of it, but there is enough there to keep you studying for a good while.

          About the Law of God
          What you have alluded to regarding the law of God, as opposed to the law of Moses, I agree with for the most part. But there are certain things found in the law of Moses that are also seen prior to Moses.
          Obviously, the seventh day sabbath was instituted in the very beginning, and concieved before that. And the commandment about murder can be seen in Cain's actions. We can also see the concept of sacrificial atonement, with both Adam and Abel, for the skins Adam was covered with required the death of innocent creatures, undoubtedly sheep, to cover his nakedness, and that same Sacrifice to which that pointed now covers our 'nakedness', and of course Abel made a sacrifice, which he learned from.....where? Adam, of course, who also would have taught it to Cain, to whom God said, Genesis 4:6-7 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
          We see the concept of sin here, which is the breaking of God's law, and which Cain apparently was supposed to already know, as in 'doest well',
          We see also the idea of clean and unclean animals as Noah brought the animals into the ark, seven each of the clean, and two of the unclean, the clean being good to eat, and the unclean being unhealthy to eat.

          About the Sacrifice
          You have stated that the laws of sacrifice have been done away with. I would submit to you that they have not been done away with, but changed. We still trust in the sacrifice for our salvation, but the One sacrificed has changed. We still lay upon Him all our sin, just as the priests laid their hands upon the head of the sheep to transfer their guilt to it. We are still sprinkled with the Blood of Atonement, but that blood is the blood of the True Sacrifice now, instead of the blood of bulls and goats and sheep.
          We still offer up sacrifices to God, the sacrifice of praise, and the sacrifice of our own 'self', which is our reasonable service.
          Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
          Php 2:17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.
          Php 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
          Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.
          Psalms 51:17
          (17) The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

          About the Attitude
          There are a number of places that you have inserted your attitude toward those who disagree with you. Let me ask you this. What is your purpose in writing this article? Is it simply to gain approval of those who already agree with you? For those, they will probably not see a problem with your expressions of contempt.
          Have your written it in hopes of convincing others of what you deem to be truth? If so, you must know that they at the start do not see things as you see them. How shall you convince them of anything if you offend them? Would it not be better to use terms that are not condescending, condemning, accusing, etc.? The expressed attitude thing really takes away from your whole work.

          Comment


          • #6
            Oh yeah. I forgot to mention this:
            Your comparison of Deut. 21:26 to Col 2:14 was an outstanding piece of work. I had not noticed that obvious reference before. Very good!

            Comment


            • #7
              Sorry. Thought of couple more things:
              Re: the feasts:you say they are done away with, and no longer should be observed. So let me ask you this. Do you celebrate Christmas or Easter? If so, why? If you do, you would probably say to recognize and celebrate the the birth, and the death and resurrection of Christ. But why should you do that, seeing that those things have already been fulfilled and done away?
              Passover today is the God instituded time of recognition and celebration of Christ's death and resurrection. The Feast of Tabernacles is the God instrituted celebration of the birth of Christ,(and is the actual time of His birth), God taberacling with man (among other things). Do you see what I mean? If we should not celebrate Passover or Tabernacles because they have been fulfilled, why change the dates and celebrate them?
              Re: the Seventh day sabbath: What is your concept of observing the sabbath? Going to church? Worshipping and praising God? Studying the Word and fellowshipping with the saints?
              There is no such command in God's law to do those things. His law says 'remember the sabbath', and 'keep the sabbath holy'. How does one remember it and keep it holy?
              It is a 'day of rest'. Do you rest? How do you do that?
              In your estimation, is it not possible to rest and keep holy the sabbath, and then worship and fellowship on Sunday? Or how about keeping every day holy, and resting?

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi FF
                Originally posted by fightingfalcon View Post
                I would like the opinion of mostly sunday-keepers
                Is there such a thing as a Sunday-keeper? I know that back in the 1970s the "Lord's Day Observance Society" in the UK used to use somewhat uncritically OT Sabbath (Saturday) verses in their futile efforts to prevent Sunday shop-opening. But how typical is that of actual churches?

                Okay, anyway:



                In our previous article Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday? we discussed what the bible really has to say about the sabbath
                I didn't go back and read it, I assume everyone knows the Sabbath was Saturday.
                Colossians 2:14 says:
                Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
                Christians take this verse and apply it to the ten commandment law, they use it to say that the law of God was nailed to the cross and we are no longer obligated to keep the sabbath… the rest of the ten commandment law is assumed by these same Christians(atleast most of them) to still be binding
                You appear to be operating under a misunderstanding. I know of no Sunday worshipper who believes that 1 of the 10 commandments has been dropped. I certainly don't. Instead the idea is that all 10 commandments have been upgraded from the Law of Moses to the Law of Christ.
                but the sabbath according to them is done away with.
                Okay, please erase this idea from your mind . On the contrary, the Sabbath has been expanded to fill 365 days a year and the Rest to come. NB. bits of the Law preexisted the Law, such as no pork for Noah, the Sabbath may perhaps also have been known to Noah, but that doesn't mean it is a bit of the law which Christ didn't fulfill and release us from. This "Law" vs "10 Commandments" distinction, is bogus as NT reference to the 10 commandments as "the Law" demonstrates.



                Colossians 2:16 says
                Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days
                Notice these keywords are all lumped together as if they fit together
                Yes well they do fit together, because they were the Jewish Christians' hangups that were causing friction at Collossae. What this verse means is that people who have this hangup (e.g. you) shouldn't be judging people who don't (e.g. me) because they might meet on a Tuesday, or whenever, anymore than someone who has a hangup about pork or alcohol should be judging those who don't. Paul is writing to the Colossians saying - don't let the Jewish brethren (ie the Sabbath-keepers) push you around. Sorry, but that is what it says. God bless
                Steven

                Comment


                • #9
                  I apologize for being a bit later in my response as i wanted to be. Being a mother of 3, I'm often logged in here but not constantly present.

                  First off, i appreciated your article very much in that it discussed the importance of the Sabbath, as being valid as ever.


                  However, you're going to meet some opposition from me regarding the Mosaic Law as well as the feasts, as i do not believe even those have been nailed to the cross.

                  Let me show you why i think that way:

                  Yeshua Himself said:

                  Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
                  Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

                  If it wasn't important to Yeshua to have people observe the Law of Moses, then why did He bring it up knowing what purpose He had come for???

                  Then you also used scripture to support the 7th day Sabbath, with the following verse:

                  God gave us the Sabbath, from the beginning, as a sign of sanctification.

                  Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them
                  Ezekiel 20:12
                  And i submit to you i would have used a different one that does support the 7th day sabbath being a sign between God and His people. Here however it speaks of Sabbaths in the plural, meaning that all Sabbaths are a sign between God and His people. This would include feasts and holy days the Lord has declared to be a "statue forever", or to be "observed perpetually" "throughout your generations(again plural)"
                  The word throughout meaning from "beginning to end" (of your generations) What is the determining factor of when that generation ends? Generations span thousands of years.... and until people stop having babies altogether generations do not end.
                  Not to mention when God said forever i believe He meant forever.
                  I don't see that He limited it to a certain time frame.

                  I see the Law of Moses as the Law from the Holy Spirit, and with Moses writing it down, it was for all those who would hear and circumcise their hearts.

                  The Law of Moses expounds on the 10 commandments, on a deeper level, just as when Yeshua came he made the level even deeper.

                  Regarding this, i did not care for you taking several verses and scrunching them together:

                  Compare what you wrote here:

                  The mosaic law was however given very differently. It was given through Moses:

                  And Moses wrote this law … And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee
                  (Deut 31:9 cut off and Deut 31:24 added)

                  With the verses in order:

                  Deu 31:9 Then Moses wrote this law and gave it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and to all the elders of Israel.
                  Deu 31:10 And Moses commanded them, "At the end of every seven years, at the set time in the year of release, at the Feast of Booths,
                  Deu 31:11 when all Israel comes to appear before the LORD your God at the place that he will choose, you shall read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
                  Deu 31:12 Assemble the people, men, women, and little ones, and the sojourner within your towns, that they may hear and learn to fear the LORD your God, and be careful to do all the words of this law,
                  Deu 31:13 and that their children, who have not known it, may hear and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as you live in the land that you are going over the Jordan to possess."
                  Deu 31:14 And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, the days approach when you must die. Call Joshua and present yourselves in the tent of meeting, that I may commission him." And Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves in the tent of meeting.
                  Deu 31:15 And the LORD appeared in the tent in a pillar of cloud. And the pillar of cloud stood over the entrance of the tent.
                  Deu 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them.
                  Deu 31:17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'
                  Deu 31:18 And I will surely hide my face in that day because of all the evil that they have done, because they have turned to other gods.
                  Deu 31:19 "Now therefore write this song and teach it to the people of Israel. Put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the people of Israel.
                  Deu 31:20 For when I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, which I swore to give to their fathers, and they have eaten and are full and grown fat, they will turn to other gods and serve them, and despise me and break my covenant.
                  Deu 31:21 And when many evils and troubles have come upon them, this song shall confront them as a witness (for it will live unforgotten in the mouths of their offspring). For I know what they are inclined to do even today, before I have brought them into the land that I swore to give."
                  Deu 31:22 So Moses wrote this song the same day and taught it to the people of Israel.
                  Deu 31:23 And the LORD commissioned Joshua the son of Nun and said, "Be strong and courageous, for you shall bring the people of Israel into the land that I swore to give them. I will be with you."
                  Deu 31:24 When Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book to the very end,
                  Deu 31:25 Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD,
                  Deu 31:26 "Take this Book of the Law and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

                  After all God commanded Moses to teach the people these statues and rules....

                  Therefore what i would submit that what has been nailed to the cross are the punishments listed in the book of the Law, the condemnation is gone....

                  Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.


                  Shalom,
                  Tanja
                  Last edited by Jesusinmyheart; Jan 5th 2008, 10:53 PM.
                  Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
                  2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
                  If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
                  http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I want to add more thoughts as to the Law of Moses which you feel has been nailed to the cross:

                    Deu 6:1 "Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the rules that the LORD your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them in the land to which you are going over, to possess it,
                    Deu 6:2 that you may fear the LORD your God, you and your son and your son's son, by keeping all his statutes and his commandments, which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be long.
                    Deu 6:3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and be careful to do them, that it may go well with you, and that you may multiply greatly, as the LORD, the God of your fathers, has promised you, in a land flowing with milk and honey.
                    Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
                    Deu 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
                    Deu 6:6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart.
                    Deu 6:7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

                    This is something Yeshua alluded to in the NT:

                    Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the most important of all?"
                    Mar 12:29 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
                    Mar 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
                    Mar 12:31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

                    Now where this "deviates" is where it says: "You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. "

                    Do you propose then, that we are not to teach our children? (or any child of God for that matter) Since this appears to be a command Moses "added"

                    To be truthful the gospel (good news) has been preached since ancient times.... Even before Yeshua came in the flesh, He was the Son and the Word from the beginning, the good news from the beginning.

                    Those that opened/circumcised their hearts understood this. The gospel is eternal....

                    Shalom,
                    Tanja
                    Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
                    2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
                    If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
                    http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



                    Comment


                    • #11
                      First of all excited about the response so forgive me if I accidently miss one of your points...


                      Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                      Overall, I find your understanding of the two laws and of the seventh day sabbath to be quite good. You have done a good bit of study and work putting this together.
                      One thing I did NOT see anywhere in your study is the fact that we ALL have sinned, that is, broken those eternal commandments of God, and thus we are all already guilty of them all, regardless how well we try to obey them now, and that when we are judged, it will be found that we indeed are guilty of the whole law of God. And death will result. However, the free gift of the death of Christ in our place will, if we accept it now in this life, satisfy the law, and His death will take the place of our death, thereby setting us free from death's curse. Or we can suffer our own death. The choice is ours. But, regardless how much we try, we simply CANNOT EARN our way into heaven. So, should we keep the law? Absolutely! Should we do it in order to be deemed 'good enough' to enter heaven? A foolish and vain venture. We have already broken the law. Having broken it, we cannot cover it up by trying harder and being good. Only the blood of Christ, that is, His death on the cross, can 'cover it'.
                      I am total agreement there... the reason I really didn't bring that into the discussion was #1 I really didn't think about(honestly), #2 the idea was to show Christians - who believe what you just said - that part of the law, what we are obligated to keep is the Sabbath.

                      So my main gist was at Christians who understand the plan of redemption, they understand how we are saved and that we must keep the law but somehow they have this idea that the Sabbath is not part of the law anymore... but good point.



                      Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                      About the Feasts
                      You assert that the Feasts have been fulfilled, which is true, partially, and that they have been done away with, which is true to an extent. However, consider this:
                      They are called 'Feasts of the Lord', as opposed to 'feasts of the Jews'.
                      Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, [Concerning] the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim [to be] holy convocations, [even] these [are] my feasts.
                      2Ch 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate [it] to him, [and] to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This [is an ordinance] for ever to Israel.
                      Ezr 3:5 And afterward [offered] the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.
                      As we know, the feasts were prophetic, speaking of the coming and work of Christ, and were indeed fulfilled by Him. But I would submit to you that they are not yet done being fulfilled.
                      They pointed, and point, to the historical event of the Passover, the yearly harvests, and God dwelling with the Israelites in the wilderness.
                      They pointed to the Lamb of God Who was sacrificed, and became the Firstfruits of them that believe, to His birth and tabernacling with man on earth in the form of a man, and of His Kingship, and the Atonement that He wrought for us.
                      Some at least also point forward to a time yet to come, when the wedding is come, and the groom comes and takes away his bride to His father's house, and the marriage feast of the Lamb, of the final judgment and atonement, and of His return to earth to set up His kingdom and once again dwell on earth with men, as reigning King.
                      They were indeed shadows of things to come, but not all has come yet. I would encourage you to do an indepth study of those shadows. They are there, after all, for us to learn from.

                      apparently we will be keeping the new moons as well, which is included in your statements regarding the Mosaic law which was done away with and nailed to the cross. Hmmmm. Along this line, also look at Zechariah 14 -
                      Zechariah 14:16-18 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (17) And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. (18) And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
                      First of all Israel has been rejected, Israel today are all those who keep God's commandments and follow Christ:
                      Galations 3:29
                      "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise"

                      So on that note, this prophecy cannot be speaking of literal Israel... or if it was it was based on a condition of their loyalty which they they betrayed.

                      Having said that it is my understanding that this verse is speaking of the end of times, this seems to be confirmed by the fact that the verse starts out with "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh"

                      Now in scripture the Day of the Lord is usually a reference to the end times, when Christ comes. Many times we see the fall of Jerusalem and the end times paralleled... so I believe this is speaking of the end times.

                      Secondly your assuming that we are part of these "nations" which I feel is not the case... The greek word would be gowy which is interpreted "a foreign, Gentile, heathen, nation, people" - It seems that these would not be Christians but heathens, atleast that is my understanding. It also speaks of the families of "egypt", the bible usually uses Egypt as a symbol of wickedness.

                      My general idea of this chapter is that it was a prophecy for Israel but was on the condition that they stayed loyal to Him which they did not do, so they forfeited it.




                      Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                      About the Shadows
                      You have stated in your study that before sin, there could be no shadows. I disagree, because even before sin, it was known of God that man would sin. The seven days of creation are themselves shadows, including the seventh day. Of what? Several things, one being Christ Himself.
                      Consider this:
                      In the beginning you were made, but sin was found in you, and you were filled with darkness and chaos. But the Holy Spirit hovered over you, and nudged you, and soon, the light of the gospel was presented to you, which you beheld, and the light of truth and salvation was created within you.
                      But, your carnality remained. Thus God divided the light within you from the darkness that remained within you.
                      And you were reborn, spiritually, and in spirit you were raised up and are now seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, but your flesh remains below. Thus, a division, a firmament, was formed within you, separating that which is holy and righteous and lifted up within you from that which is lowly and corrupt, dead and buried.
                      And God raised up within you a solid foundation, and caused life to sprout within you, bearing good seed, and good fruit.
                      And the Holy Spirit wrote upon your heart the law of God, to rule your walk both in the light and in the darkness, a light to lighten your path.
                      And God caused greater forms of life to form within you, not only those heavenly things, but caused even your own soul to bring forth new life, and as you share the gospel with others, that new life is formed, and it multiplies itself, for those you bring to life bring others to life.
                      And eventually, you will finally be formed into the very likeness of Christ Himself. And then, His work in you will be finished, and He, and you, shall find rest, in that day with no darkness and no end.
                      God knew men would sin but they hadn't yet... so there could be no shadows for something that had not yet happened... the Bible is clear that men lived for a period on the earth before sinning. They weren't created in sin... they were created in perfection and no shadows were needed until sin was found.





                      Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                      You can also, if you dig, find a correlation between the seven days of creation, the seven feasts, the seven furnishings of the tabernacle, the seven patriarchs of Genesis, seven aspects of the exodus from Egypt, the seven letters and seven churches of Revelation, and the seven millenia of man on earth. These all tie together, and each of the seven of each speak of the same precepts.
                      Example: Day one, light is created and darkness separated. Feast one separated the Israelites, and us, from the curse of death, the first furnishing is the altar of sacrifice, which separated them from their sin, and our Sacrifice separates us from sin.
                      Day two was the dividing of the waters, feast two was the dividing of the leaven, the second aspect of the exodus was the dividing of the waters of the Red Sea, the second furnishing is the brazen laver in which the water separated them from the filth of their hands.
                      Day three was the raising of the land and vegetation, the third feast is the raising up of the firstfruits, the third aspect of the exodus is the provision of manna, the third furnishing is the table of shewbread and fruit of the vine.
                      Etc. You can study out the rest of it. It will facinate you.
                      7 Is a number of perfection... that is why it is seen in the days of creation and the sacrificial system... it was to symbolize perfection.
                      The study of the sanctuary and the feasts is fascinating and I have not done so in real depth although I plan to do so sometime.

                      But again as shown in my study Paul is asserting that the gentiles do not need to keep the feasts...



                      Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                      About the Priesthood
                      You have stated that the priesthood is done away with, and you are correct, to an extent. However, consider this:
                      Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
                      Notice it says 'changed', not 'done away'. So how was it changed?
                      1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
                      We are now the priests of God. If you are prepared to do a really comprehensive and indepth study on the priesthood of the OT, and compare it to what we as NT saints are commanded, you will find that every single detail of the priesthood has it's counterpart in the NT.
                      If you would like to see a 'brief' study on this, you can check it out here: http://www.gleanings.cprministries.net. I am still in the process of developing certain portions of it, but there is enough there to keep you studying for a good while.
                      The priesthood in its current state was fulfilled in Christ... after Christ we are ordained to be Priests

                      "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

                      And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

                      The priesthood was done away in the effect that God is now the high Priest and we, as Christians are Priests of the lord.



                      Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                      About the Law of God
                      What you have alluded to regarding the law of God, as opposed to the law of Moses, I agree with for the most part. But there are certain things found in the law of Moses that are also seen prior to Moses.
                      Obviously, the seventh day sabbath was instituted in the very beginning, and concieved before that. And the commandment about murder can be seen in Cain's actions. We can also see the concept of sacrificial atonement, with both Adam and Abel, for the skins Adam was covered with required the death of innocent creatures, undoubtedly sheep, to cover his nakedness, and that same Sacrifice to which that pointed now covers our 'nakedness', and of course Abel made a sacrifice, which he learned from.....where? Adam, of course, who also would have taught it to Cain, to whom God said, Genesis 4:6-7 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
                      We see the concept of sin here, which is the breaking of God's law, and which Cain apparently was supposed to already know, as in 'doest well',
                      We see also the idea of clean and unclean animals as Noah brought the animals into the ark, seven each of the clean, and two of the unclean, the clean being good to eat, and the unclean being unhealthy to eat.
                      Well i would agree with that... the ten commandment law was in existence before sin and is the moral code by which the whole universe lives by. It was not created at Sinai but has existed forever.


                      Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                      About the Sacrifice
                      You have stated that the laws of sacrifice have been done away with. I would submit to you that they have not been done away with, but changed. We still trust in the sacrifice for our salvation, but the One sacrificed has changed. We still lay upon Him all our sin, just as the priests laid their hands upon the head of the sheep to transfer their guilt to it. We are still sprinkled with the Blood of Atonement, but that blood is the blood of the True Sacrifice now, instead of the blood of bulls and goats and sheep.
                      We still offer up sacrifices to God, the sacrifice of praise, and the sacrifice of our own 'self', which is our reasonable service.
                      Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
                      Php 2:17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.
                      Php 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
                      Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.
                      Psalms 51:17
                      (17) The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
                      I asserted as Paul clearly shows that the sacrificial system of the Israelites has been done away with... again this is symbolized in the tearing of the veil.

                      I understand your points and they are correct but I think your taking my comments out of context here... we do have to realize that the sacrificial system is done away with in Christ, else we should be sacrificing lambs still... I realize we are still obligated to sacrifice ourselves to Christ...



                      Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                      About the Attitude
                      There are a number of places that you have inserted your attitude toward those who disagree with you. Let me ask you this. What is your purpose in writing this article? Is it simply to gain approval of those who already agree with you? For those, they will probably not see a problem with your expressions of contempt.
                      Have your written it in hopes of convincing others of what you deem to be truth? If so, you must know that they at the start do not see things as you see them. How shall you convince them of anything if you offend them? Would it not be better to use terms that are not condescending, condemning, accusing, etc.? The expressed attitude thing really takes away from your whole work.
                      Let me ask you a question... is it biblical?

                      My purpose is not to gain agreement but to open the bible and the truths of God's word... if it is not so please show me.

                      BTw do you mind pointing out where I was condescending? If I appeared so I am happy to edit it out... I sometimes write things and they come out much harsher than I intended or they would have sounded in person... know what I mean?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        We celebrate Christmas, not out of requirement though... we celebrate it in that Christ was born... there is nothing wrong with celebrating God's birth, death and resurrection but they should never be upheld as laws.

                        The idea of keeping the sabbath is a communion between God and created... it is a day where we can come and worship our God on a day appointed Himself. The bible doesn't specifically say to goto church as that was a given... if you look at the verses in the bible you see that was a given...

                        "as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read."

                        God made only one day holy... we are not to treat any other day holy, Sunday is the counterfeit sabbath... the Lord said to keep the Sabbath holy... I don't believe a true sabbath-keeping christian can goto church on Sunday and truly be following God.

                        Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                        Sorry. Thought of couple more things:
                        Re: the feasts:you say they are done away with, and no longer should be observed. So let me ask you this. Do you celebrate Christmas or Easter? If so, why? If you do, you would probably say to recognize and celebrate the the birth, and the death and resurrection of Christ. But why should you do that, seeing that those things have already been fulfilled and done away?
                        Passover today is the God instituded time of recognition and celebration of Christ's death and resurrection. The Feast of Tabernacles is the God instrituted celebration of the birth of Christ,(and is the actual time of His birth), God taberacling with man (among other things). Do you see what I mean? If we should not celebrate Passover or Tabernacles because they have been fulfilled, why change the dates and celebrate them?
                        Re: the Seventh day sabbath: What is your concept of observing the sabbath? Going to church? Worshipping and praising God? Studying the Word and fellowshipping with the saints?
                        There is no such command in God's law to do those things. His law says 'remember the sabbath', and 'keep the sabbath holy'. How does one remember it and keep it holy?
                        It is a 'day of rest'. Do you rest? How do you do that?
                        In your estimation, is it not possible to rest and keep holy the sabbath, and then worship and fellowship on Sunday? Or how about keeping every day holy, and resting?




                        Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                        Hi FF Is there such a thing as a Sunday-keeper? I know that back in the 1970s the "Lord's Day Observance Society" in the UK used to use somewhat uncritically OT Sabbath (Saturday) verses in their futile efforts to prevent Sunday shop-opening. But how typical is that of actual churches?
                        Most Christians which "keep" Sunday do not truly keep it holy... why should they? The only reason why most of them do so is because they don't know better, if they knew how the true sabbath was to be kept most of them would also know they should be keeping the true sabbath instead of sunday.

                        I used that as a way of saying people who goto church on sunday for most sunday christians do not indeed keep it holy.




                        Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                        I didn't go back and read it, I assume everyone knows the Sabbath was Saturday.You appear to be operating under a misunderstanding. I know of no Sunday worshipper who believes that 1 of the 10 commandments has been dropped. I certainly don't. Instead the idea is that all 10 commandments have been upgraded from the Law of Moses to the Law of Christ.Okay, please erase this idea from your mind . On the contrary, the Sabbath has been expanded to fill 365 days a year and the Rest to come. NB. bits of the Law preexisted the Law, such as no pork for Noah, the Sabbath may perhaps also have been known to Noah, but that doesn't mean it is a bit of the law which Christ didn't fulfill and release us from. This "Law" vs "10 Commandments" distinction, is bogus as NT reference to the 10 commandments as "the Law" demonstrates.Yes well they do fit together, because they were the Jewish Christians' hangups that were causing friction at Collossae. What this verse means is that people who have this hangup (e.g. you) shouldn't be judging people who don't (e.g. me) because they might meet on a Tuesday, or whenever, anymore than someone who has a hangup about pork or alcohol should be judging those who don't. Paul is writing to the Colossians saying - don't let the Jewish brethren (ie the Sabbath-keepers) push you around. Sorry, but that is what it says. God bless
                        Steven
                        They do, believe me they do. Many different sunday churches have different stories, but some of them believe that the Sabbath was somehow dropped with the mosaic law.

                        Secondly your presenting the ten commandments as the "law of moses". This is contrary to scripture, the bible refers to the law of moses as the mosaic or ceremonial laws and ordinances. The ten commandments are spoken of as the Law of God.

                        I think the bible is very clear that the mosaic law was done away with, NOT the ten commandment law. I presented many many verses to back this up.

                        Paul is very clear on this matter.

                        "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31

                        "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
                        God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
                        Romans 6:1-2

                        How can you say the law was done away with when Paul makes such CLEAR statements as these?

                        Originally posted by Steven3 View Post
                        is bogus as NT reference to the 10 commandments as "the Law" demonstrates.
                        Really? Your state doesn't use that word when they reference their laws? All states do, all countries do... they all call it "the law" - this is meaningless, the Jewish people knew which was which.

                        I provided verse after verse which clearly and distinctly separates the two laws... how can you say otherwise when the bible does so? Don't say I am wrong, show me from the bible how I am wrong...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by fightingfalcon View Post
                          BTw do you mind pointing out where I was condescending? If I appeared so I am happy to edit it out... I sometimes write things and they come out much harsher than I intended or they would have sounded in person... know what I mean?
                          I'll provide them for you, but please understand I am not trying to tear you apart here, but rather help you in communication skills. As you said, sometimes we write things that come out differently that we intend. So in that light (and because you asked).....
                          insane and wholly un-biblical
                          is plain stupidity
                          There are still Christians today who will insist that the yearly sabbaths should be observed along with the weekly Sabbath. This is an attack by Satan on Godís holy law for if we still need to keep the yearly sabbaths than what was done away with?
                          While you were for the most part speaking against the teachings, those who believe and teach these things will feel it to be a personal attack.
                          The same message can be provided using words that will not have that result.
                          As to your rebuttals, I have already stated my understanding and critique (which is what you asked for) and don't think I need to beat the horse again, so I'll let that lie.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I just wanted to jump in here and let you guys know... I try to stay out of discussions when I am in over my head.

                            Hey, I am enjoying this thread and the article. I hope to read more of it later.
                            Matt 9:13
                            13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                            NASU

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              First of all sorry for the delay in replying... I only got to Kahtar's posts and then was unable until today to really get enough time to reply to the rest of you... I wasn't ignoring you, honest


                              Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
                              However, you're going to meet some opposition from me regarding the Mosaic Law as well as the feasts, as i do not believe even those have been nailed to the cross.
                              Well the bible is clear that something was nailed to the cross... I feel the bible is clear that this was the ceremonial laws and ordinances... if you feel differently, then please explain to me what law was done away with at the cross and how you feel the Mosaic law is in whole or partially still binding... I am really curious here as the mosaic law was actually given to the Jews only(what some claim the ten commandment law was)... but if you got something I don't know I definitely want to hear it.



                              Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
                              Yeshua Himself said:

                              Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,
                              Mat 23:3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you--but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.

                              If it wasn't important to Yeshua to have people observe the Law of Moses, then why did He bring it up knowing what purpose He had come for???
                              The scribes and pharisees called Christ a hypocrite, a devil, son of belial, blasphemer and many other names... they said these things, does this verse mean that the people should listen to that and believe it?

                              I don't think this verse can be used to support the idea that the ceremonial ordinances and feasts are still to be kept.



                              Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
                              Then you also used scripture to support the 7th day Sabbath, with the following verse:

                              And i submit to you i would have used a different one that does support the 7th day sabbath being a sign between God and His people. Here however it speaks of Sabbaths in the plural, meaning that all Sabbaths are a sign between God and His people. This would include feasts and holy days the Lord has declared to be a "statue forever", or to be "observed perpetually" "throughout your generations(again plural)"
                              The word throughout meaning from "beginning to end" (of your generations) What is the determining factor of when that generation ends? Generations span thousands of years.... and until people stop having babies altogether generations do not end.
                              Not to mention when God said forever i believe He meant forever.
                              I don't see that He limited it to a certain time frame.
                              Hmm....

                              13
                              Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

                              14
                              Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

                              15
                              Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

                              16
                              Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

                              17
                              It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

                              Interestingly enough the first word "sabbaths" is the same greek root as 15 where it is clear he is referring to the Sabbath: shabbath

                              Sabbaths, plural does not mean the writer is not referring to the Sabbath of rest... in fact whenever in the bible God is speaking to His people and says "my" before sabbath, insinuating ownership... the next word is always "sabbaths"... never do you see "my sabbath"

                              So I think it is quite safe to say this verse is indeed speaking of the Sabbath of rest... in context we get that very idea.



                              Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
                              I see the Law of Moses as the Law from the Holy Spirit, and with Moses writing it down, it was for all those who would hear and circumcise their hearts.

                              The Law of Moses expounds on the 10 commandments, on a deeper level, just as when Yeshua came he made the level even deeper.

                              Regarding this, i did not care for you taking several verses and scrunching them together:

                              Compare what you wrote here:

                              (Deut 31:9 cut off and Deut 31:24 added)
                              Had I printed all the verses the article would have been huge... the idea is not to present the whole bible in one article but to get you studying the bible for yourself... I wasn't trying to hide anything, I was just presenting the fact of how the mosaic law was written, what was done with it afterward etc...




                              Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
                              After all God commanded Moses to teach the people these statues and rules....

                              Therefore what i would submit that what has been nailed to the cross are the punishments listed in the book of the Law, the condemnation is gone....

                              Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.


                              Shalom,
                              Tanja
                              God also commanded them to circumcised and later after the cross Paul says "circumcision is nothing..." God commanded them to keep the mosaic law, it was inspired for them as a nation, they were to follow it.

                              What about the condemnations in Revelation and Daniel? I agree that in Christ our condemnation is gone, when we accept His sacrifice He wipes our slate clean... I agree with that however the ceremonial laws and sacrifices point to Christ... do you feel we should still keep those?



                              [I am going to reply with a new post to each of your comments. That way things won't be so cluttered. So I will be back in a bit... ;-)]

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X