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  • Abraham Believed God!

    Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    Ga 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    The Scripture tells us that “Abraham believed God, and it [believing] was counted/accounted/imputed to him for righteousness.” Does this mean that Abraham, while spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, while in bondage to Satan, sin and death is able from within himself to achieve saving faith whereby God declares him righteous and His friend? That cannot be! If Abraham’s ability to have faith (believing) comes from within, then his salvation is the result of his work and not of grace.

    The Scripture tells us that if Abraham were justified by works, he would have something to glory in, but not before God (Ro. 4:2). To him who works for salvation his reward could not be counted of grace, but of debt. In other words if saving faith came from Abraham, then he was saved by his work (of faith) but not of grace, and God would be obliged to pay Abraham for what he had accomplished (righteous faith) in saving himself.

    How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction? How are we to understand that Abraham could believe (have faith) God, and his believing be credited to him for righteousness? We find our answer in Paul’s letter to the Galatians. The Galatians were being influenced by the Judaizers’ gospel, teaching that justification before God is found in keeping the law (in our day it would be doing good works). Paul sought to prevent these young Christians from embracing a false gospel and to encourage them to find their spiritual freedom in Christ alone, and not through works of the flesh (Gal 5:1). This false gospel became a hindrance to the Galatians obedience to God, and they began to believe that salvation was not of grace alone, but also by good works (for them keeping parts of the Mosaic law).

    Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    Ga 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    God told Abraham that the Messiah would descend through him. Through Abraham’s descendent all the nations of the world would be blessed. Abraham “heard” God, and believed through the hearing in the same way every believer comes to have saving faith. “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Ro 10:17) Some “hear” the gospel and remain in unbelief because they are not given the gift of saving faith (Eph 2:8-9) “For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.” (Heb 4:2)

    Now we can understand how Abraham believing (having faith) God is counted unto him for righteousness. All of God, none of Abraham. Salvation is of the LORD! (Jonah 2:9)

    Many Blessings,
    RW

  • #2
    Originally posted by RogerW View Post
    Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    Ga 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

    Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    The Scripture tells us that “Abraham believed God, and it [believing] was counted/accounted/imputed to him for righteousness.” Does this mean that Abraham, while spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, while in bondage to Satan, sin and death is able from within himself to achieve saving faith whereby God declares him righteous and His friend? That cannot be! If Abraham’s ability to have faith (believing) comes from within, then his salvation is the result of his work and not of grace.
    Says you, but not scripture. We are saved by God's grace through having faith in Christ. It is only because of God's grace that we have an opportunity to believe in Christ so that we won't perish but have everlasting life.

    The Scripture tells us that if Abraham were justified by works, he would have something to glory in, but not before God (Ro. 4:2). To him who works for salvation his reward could not be counted of grace, but of debt. In other words if saving faith came from Abraham, then he was saved by his work (of faith) but not of grace, and God would be obliged to pay Abraham for what he had accomplished (righteous faith) in saving himself.
    Do you not know that Romans 4:2 is speaking of the works of the law? All you have to do is look at the previous chapter to see the context.

    Romans 3
    26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
    29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
    30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
    31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    In Romans 4:2-3 Paul reiterates what he said in Romans 3:26-28. No one is justified by works of the law but instead is justified by faith in Christ.

    Faith is certainly not a work of the law.

    How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction?
    We don't need to because there's no contradiction. We're not justified by works of the law but we are justified by faith in Christ.

    How are we to understand that Abraham could believe (have faith) God, and his believing be credited to him for righteousness? We find our answer in Paul’s letter to the Galatians. The Galatians were being influenced by the Judaizers’ gospel, teaching that justification before God is found in keeping the law (in our day it would be doing good works). Paul sought to prevent these young Christians from embracing a false gospel and to encourage them to find their spiritual freedom in Christ alone, and not through works of the flesh (Gal 5:1). This false gospel became a hindrance to the Galatians obedience to God, and they began to believe that salvation was not of grace alone, but also by good works (for them keeping parts of the Mosaic law).

    Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    Ga 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    God told Abraham that the Messiah would descend through him. Through Abraham’s descendent all the nations of the world would be blessed. Abraham “heard” God, and believed through the hearing in the same way every believer comes to have saving faith. “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Ro 10:17) Some “hear” the gospel and remain in unbelief because they are not given the gift of saving faith (Eph 2:8-9) “For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.” (Heb 4:2)

    Now we can understand how Abraham believing (having faith) God is counted unto him for righteousness. All of God, none of Abraham. Salvation is of the LORD! (Jonah 2:9)

    Many Blessings,
    RW
    None of Abraham? Is man not responsible for anything, Roger? It specifically says that Abraham believed God and his faith was credited to him for righteousness. It doesn't say anything about God believing for him.

    Comment


    • #3
      Our salvation was given to us by God. In order to accept it we must accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior (in other words "have faith") Therefore we did not earn it, but merely accepting the gift.
      Matthew 10:39
      He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by RogerW View Post
        Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

        Ga 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

        Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

        The Scripture tells us that “Abraham believed God, and it [believing] was counted/accounted/imputed to him for righteousness.” Does this mean that Abraham, while spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, while in bondage to Satan, sin and death is able from within himself to achieve saving faith whereby God declares him righteous and His friend? That cannot be! If Abraham’s ability to have faith (believing) comes from within, then his salvation is the result of his work and not of grace.

        The Scripture tells us that if Abraham were justified by works, he would have something to glory in, but not before God (Ro. 4:2). To him who works for salvation his reward could not be counted of grace, but of debt. In other words if saving faith came from Abraham, then he was saved by his work (of faith) but not of grace, and God would be obliged to pay Abraham for what he had accomplished (righteous faith) in saving himself.

        How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction? How are we to understand that Abraham could believe (have faith) God, and his believing be credited to him for righteousness? We find our answer in Paul’s letter to the Galatians. The Galatians were being influenced by the Judaizers’ gospel, teaching that justification before God is found in keeping the law (in our day it would be doing good works). Paul sought to prevent these young Christians from embracing a false gospel and to encourage them to find their spiritual freedom in Christ alone, and not through works of the flesh (Gal 5:1). This false gospel became a hindrance to the Galatians obedience to God, and they began to believe that salvation was not of grace alone, but also by good works (for them keeping parts of the Mosaic law).

        Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
        Ga 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

        God told Abraham that the Messiah would descend through him. Through Abraham’s descendent all the nations of the world would be blessed. Abraham “heard” God, and believed through the hearing in the same way every believer comes to have saving faith. “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Ro 10:17) Some “hear” the gospel and remain in unbelief because they are not given the gift of saving faith (Eph 2:8-9) “For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.” (Heb 4:2)

        Now we can understand how Abraham believing (having faith) God is counted unto him for righteousness. All of God, none of Abraham. Salvation is of the LORD! (Jonah 2:9)

        Many Blessings,
        RW
        First, I would not consider good works, which we were created for, aw works of the Mosaic law. Second, God does not choose who has saving faith. The Scriptures clearly tell us that Christ gives light (understanding) to "every man that cometh into the world". Third you did not mention that James said that Abraham was justified when he obeyed God. You must overlook quite a few Scriptures to hold that opinion.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ixthus View Post
          Our salvation was given to us by God. In order to accept it we must accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior (in other words "have faith") Therefore we did not earn it, but merely accepting the gift.
          Greetings Ixthus,

          I'm a little confused by your reply. You said our salvation is given to us by God, but you also say we must accept the gift...what is the gift you are referring to? Is not salvation freely given as you have said, and not something that Christ merely offers for us to accept or reject? For that matter does not Eph 2:8,9 show us that even saving faith is not our own but the gift of God's grace?

          Many Blessings,
          RW

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes we all do have faith, but is that saving faith?
            What about the disciples who walked with Jesus. How often did He say to them 'O you of little faith'
            If they had little faith, then were did they get saving faith? What about doubting Thomas?


            Heb 12:2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

            What does 'author' mean?

            Act 3:16 "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

            Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

            If it faith that we already have, then why 'faith comes'?

            1Co 13:13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

            If the love we have comes from God, and the hope we have comes from God, then why not the faith?

            Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

            Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor

            Eph 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

            James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

            2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

            Peter say's he received a faith.

            Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

            How is our faith holy, except it comes from God?

            Comment


            • #7
              God doesn't need our works. He just wants ... us.

              I think a person who really believes God to the point of drastic life changes (such as we see with Abraham) in the face of not all that much personal communication (although when it did happen, it was to the point and done in such a way that it stuck with him for years to come), nor the rich resource of the written Word to go by, is to be admired, in my book. We have to remember that these people back then didn't have all that much by way of written anything, and they didn't live in a community of others who believed likewise. They were lone dots on a map who marched to a totally different drum. And, the clincher, it was accounted to them for righteousness by a God who obviously has standards that are totally different from our own. I find that rather mindboggling, to be honest. And, that truly gives me hope as a child of Abraham by faith. There's a fella I don't mind associating myself with.

              "You want what, God? Okay, you got it."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mikey0
                Don't forget also that it's impossibe (gramatically) for these verses to teach that Abraham's faith was accounted for righteousness. The word "it" is a pronoun and as a basic rule, pronouns must modify a noun. What noun does it modify? Everyone who runs to this verse to say that our faith contributes to our salvation says that it modifies the word faith. Well obviously the word isn't used, the verb form of the word is used and that's "believed". But that's a verb.

                So what does the pronoun "it" modify? The problem is that the word "it" is in the 3rd person singular. In the Greek, that can be translated as he, she, or it. It's the same Greek word. It should be translated as "He" not "it". He is obviously from the context of the sentence, refering to God.

                Abraham believed God, and He was counted unto him for righteousness.

                Abraham believed God, and He was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

                As you and the bible says, it's all God and nothing to do with man.

                Mike

                Also one other thing. The word "and" also can be translated as "for". Again, same Greek word.

                Abraham believed God, for He was counted unto him for righteousness.

                Abraham believed God, for He was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

                So these verses are to be understood as Abraham believed God because God was accounted to him for righteousness.
                Mikey,
                I am no Greek scholar but I am curious as to your source. Here are a couple of quotes (forgive the lack of Greek fonts) from Robertsons Word pictures on those two verses and he never mentions what you stated.

                Rom 4:3
                It was reckoned unto him for righteousness (elogisqh eiv dikaiosunhn). First aorist passive indicative of logizomai, old and common verb to set down accounts (literally or metaphorically). It was set down on the credit side of the ledger "for" (eiv as often) righteousness. What was set down? His believing God (episteusen tw qew).

                Gal 3:6
                It was reckoned unto him for righteousness (elogisqh eiv dikaiosunhn). First aorist passive indicative of logizomai. See on 1Co_13:5 for this old word. He quotes Gen_15:6 and uses it at length in Rom_4:3 ff. to prove that the faith of Abraham was reckoned "for" (eiv, good Koin‚ idiom though more common in LXX because of the Hebrew) righteousness before he was circumcised. James (Jam_2:23) quotes the same passage as proof of Abraham's obedience to God in offering up Isaac (beginning to offer him). Paul and James are discussing different episodes in the life of Abraham. Both are correct.
                ♪ Each day may Christ become clearer, His Cross dearer, Our Hope nearer. ♫

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mikey0
                  Don't forget also that it's impossibe (gramatically) for these verses to teach that Abraham's faith was accounted for righteousness. The word "it" is a pronoun and as a basic rule, pronouns must modify a noun. What noun does it modify? Everyone who runs to this verse to say that our faith contributes to our salvation says that it modifies the word faith. Well obviously the word isn't used, the verb form of the word is used and that's "believed". But that's a verb.

                  So what does the pronoun "it" modify? The problem is that the word "it" is in the 3rd person singular. In the Greek, that can be translated as he, she, or it. It's the same Greek word. It should be translated as "He" not "it". He is obviously from the context of the sentence, refering to God.

                  Abraham believed God, and He was counted unto him for righteousness.

                  Abraham believed God, and He was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

                  As you and the bible says, it's all God and nothing to do with man.

                  Mike

                  Also one other thing. The word "and" also can be translated as "for". Again, same Greek word.

                  Abraham believed God, for He was counted unto him for righteousness.

                  Abraham believed God, for He was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

                  So these verses are to be understood as Abraham believed God because God was accounted to him for righteousness.
                  Tell me how you...view.. this verse:

                  Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

                  This verse clearly says that to the one that works not but believes on God, that person's faith is counted for righteousness.
                  Last edited by quiet dove; Apr 30th 2009, 03:04 AM. Reason: insulting approach

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mikey0
                    So these verses are to be understood as Abraham believed God because God was accounted to him for righteousness.

                    So, Abraham believed God? Why? Because God was accounted to him for righteousness. ???
                    What exactly does this mean? I have never heard of this in my life. No matter how I look at this conclusion, it does not compute. What am I missing here?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                      Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
                      Ga 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

                      Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
                      The Scripture tells us that “Abraham believed God, and it [believing] was counted/accounted/imputed to him for righteousness.” Does this mean that Abraham, while spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, while in bondage to Satan, sin and death is able from within himself to achieve saving faith whereby God declares him righteous and His friend? That cannot be! If Abraham’s ability to have faith (believing) comes from within, then his salvation is the result of his work and not of grace.

                      The Scripture tells us that if Abraham were justified by works, he would have something to glory in, but not before God (Ro. 4:2). To him who works for salvation his reward could not be counted of grace, but of debt. In other words if saving faith came from Abraham, then he was saved by his work (of faith) but not of grace, and God would be obliged to pay Abraham for what he had accomplished (righteous faith) in saving himself.

                      How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction? How are we to understand that Abraham could believe (have faith) God, and his believing be credited to him for righteousness? We find our answer in Paul’s letter to the Galatians. The Galatians were being influenced by the Judaizers’ gospel, teaching that justification before God is found in keeping the law (in our day it would be doing good works). Paul sought to prevent these young Christians from embracing a false gospel and to encourage them to find their spiritual freedom in Christ alone, and not through works of the flesh (Gal 5:1). This false gospel became a hindrance to the Galatians obedience to God, and they began to believe that salvation was not of grace alone, but also by good works (for them keeping parts of the Mosaic law).

                      Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
                      Ga 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

                      God told Abraham that the Messiah would descend through him. Through Abraham’s descendent all the nations of the world would be blessed. Abraham “heard” God, and believed through the hearing in the same way every believer comes to have saving faith. “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Ro 10:17) Some “hear” the gospel and remain in unbelief because they are not given the gift of saving faith (Eph 2:8-9) “For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.” (Heb 4:2)

                      Now we can understand how Abraham believing (having faith) God is counted unto him for righteousness. All of God, none of Abraham. Salvation is of the LORD! (Jonah 2:9)

                      Many Blessings,
                      RW

                      The blue part is the only issue I have, other wise it is a good post. IMHO. Regarding the blue part, consider, as opposed to "giving the gift of saving faith" we are, as the Bible tells us, convicted of sin by the Spirit and thus presented with the Way, of eternal Life. We can believe and say yes or reject and say no. Basically we still can't take any credit for anything because it was God in the first place who convicted our hearts that we indeed are sinners in need of Salvation.

                      I think some of the further confusion is a typo
                      Now we can understand how Abraham believing (having faith) God is counted unto him for righteousness. All of God, none of Abraham. Salvation is of the LORD! (Jonah 2:9)

                      I think you meant to say, God accounted it unto him as righteousness


                      sigpic

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by John146 View Post
                        Says you, but not scripture. We are saved by God's grace through having faith in Christ. It is only because of God's grace that we have an opportunity to believe in Christ so that we won't perish but have everlasting life.

                        Do you not know that Romans 4:2 is speaking of the works of the law? All you have to do is look at the previous chapter to see the context.

                        Romans 3
                        26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
                        28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
                        29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
                        30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
                        31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

                        In Romans 4:2-3 Paul reiterates what he said in Romans 3:26-28. No one is justified by works of the law but instead is justified by faith in Christ.

                        Faith is certainly not a work of the law.

                        We don't need to because there's no contradiction. We're not justified by works of the law but we are justified by faith in Christ.

                        None of Abraham? Is man not responsible for anything, Roger? It specifically says that Abraham believed God and his faith was credited to him for righteousness. It doesn't say anything about God believing for him.
                        I dont see Roger saying that God believed for Abraham or that Abraham was found righteous on account of his works. Abraham believed God and Abrahams works proved it, and Abraham was found righteous because of his faith. That is no different than us.

                        We believe God the Father that, Jesus is God the Son, our Redeemer, God the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, and our works are a reflection of our believing and our faith. Abraham, like us, is covered by the atoning blood of Christ.


                        sigpic

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                          Greetings Ixthus,

                          I'm a little confused by your reply. You said our salvation is given to us by God, but you also say we must accept the gift...what is the gift you are referring to? Is not salvation freely given as you have said, and not something that Christ merely offers for us to accept or reject? For that matter does not Eph 2:8,9 show us that even saving faith is not our own but the gift of God's grace?

                          Many Blessings,
                          RW
                          I think wear you are tripping up at is that you know it is all God and we do nothing, and that is commendable. But, what God also gave us was the ability to choose. He does all the work, the convicting of our hearts (16:8), the having put within all his creatures the knowledge of a Creator. (Rom 1:20). His Holy word, as you already quoted.(Rom 10:17). So yea, all is done by God except one thing, we must believe, which is saying yes, and confess

                          Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

                          So while God does do everything, including giving us the free will to believe or not believe. Abraham was in the same shoes, he believed, his works/obedience proved it, and his faith was accounted unto him as righteousness. We can't say just how much understanding Abraham had regarding the promised Messiah, but Abraham believed God's promises and he believed that God could save him. And Abraham believed in his heart and confessed with his mouth and his works were the reflection of his heart.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mikey0
                            Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for
                            righteousness

                            This verse isn't teaching that the "his faith" is referring to the "him that worketh not". "His faith" is referring to "him that justifieth the ungodly". Who's that? Jesus Christ. It's His faith that justifieth, not ours. If our faith could then we might have something to boast of. No one wants to admit this but it's none-the-less true.

                            Let's divide verse 5 into 3 clauses..a,b, and c, since I'm not certain that I'm following you here.

                            In all 3 clauses a pronoun is used. Are you saying that in both clause b and c, that these refer to Jesus, or that just clause b refers to Jesus? I can see where clause b would be, but not clause c.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                              I think wear you are tripping up at is that you know it is all God and we do nothing, and that is commendable. But, what God also gave us was the ability to choose.
                              Hi quiet dove,

                              How can this be? If you agree that salvation is all of God, how can you say that God gave us the ability to choose? You are saying with one breath that salvation is the work of God, and of course with this I agree, for Scripture confirms this truth. But then with the very next breath you say that God gave man something he/she must do to be saved...believe. That of course means that we are saved by our faith. Doesn't Scripture teach us we are saved by grace through faith? If we are saved by believing (having faith), how can salvation be by grace? Either salvation is all of God, or salvation is by grace plus man's choosing Him (our good work). Of course if man must choose, then obviously you cannot agree that salvation is by God's grace.


                              Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                              He does all the work, the convicting of our hearts (16:8), the having put within all his creatures the knowledge of a Creator. (Rom 1:20). His Holy word, as you already quoted.(Rom 10:17). So yea, all is done by God except one thing, we must believe, which is saying yes, and confess

                              Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

                              So while God does do everything, including giving us the free will to believe or not believe. Abraham was in the same shoes, he believed, his works/obedience proved it, and his faith was accounted unto him as righteousness. We can't say just how much understanding Abraham had regarding the promised Messiah, but Abraham believed God's promises and he believed that God could save him. And Abraham believed in his heart and confessed with his mouth and his works were the reflection of his heart.
                              When does man have free will or the ability to turn to Christ for life? Before we are born again we are slaves of Satan, and in bondage to sin and death. In this condition we can only choose according to our nature or natural fleshly desires, which will not seek Christ for life. After we are born again we have become servants of Christ. Now we can freely choose to walk according to our flesh, or we can freely choose to walk according to the Spirit because our nature has been changed and is no longer bound by Satan, sin and death.

                              Try to examine Romans 10 using more of the context. Paul explains how one is enabled to believe with the heart and confess with the mouth, by the Word of faith, which is preached. To call upon the name of the Lord one must first believe (have faith), and faith comes by hearing the Word of God. But not all who hear the gospel preached believe...why? Because it was not mixed with faith in those who heard. How can that be, since Scripture tells us faith comes by hearing the Word?

                              Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

                              Ro 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

                              Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
                              Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
                              Ro 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
                              Ro 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
                              Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

                              Many Blessings,
                              RW

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