The Second Coming of Christ

[Allegra]

The traditional view of this event says this is in the future.
But the antique view(which I have nicknamed preterist-bc it relies on the inspired writings of Scripture) says this occurred in 70AD.(at the 3rd & final destruction Of Jerusalem & the "end of the age "(GR. aeon) or Old covenant/Jewish age)

I will try to answer any "hard questions" anyone may have afterwards.
Where to begin? Oh Lordy, I will start on this post with some references from Daniel.
For the record, I do not believe any doctrine that may be traditional, but holds to a profound hope that is in essence saying "I must hope & wait for the end & destruction of the "world" (which at that time Jesus is supposed to return) That is, imho, doing an injustice to my children, & any future generations to have a life in this world. And it also teaches that our believing, deceased family members, & prior generations post AD70, have not received their glorious state upon their death.

In Daniel 7, the fourth beast was from the Roman empire. 10 kings+ "little horn" was to arise from the fourth kingdom.
Also in Dan 2:40-45 the fourth kingdom (which corresponds with Dan.7) "In the times of those kings[Roman emperors], the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people." We can see that this kingdom was the kingdom of Christ. The Roman empire ruled the land when Christ came (the first advent)

Dan.7:22," The saints took possession of the kingdom," is the same phrase as 7:18-"but the saints of the Highest one will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever and ever." This is speaking of the kingdom of God.

Look at the words in Dan.7:7-14: (NKJV)
7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.
Vision of the Ancient of Days

9 “ I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court[a] was seated,
And the books were opened.

11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
13 “ I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.Footnotes:

1. Daniel 7:10 Or judgment

Alright, who was "little horn?" Vespasian was the Roman emperor in power at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem & the temple in AD70.(AD69-79) His son was Titus, he was made a military leader.
Now we can parallel this fourth kingdom to the beasts in Revelation.
Specifically, Rev.13's 1st beast (out of the sea) was in Hebrew 666. This was emperor Nero Caesar (AD54-68)
Nero began the persecution of the saints in 64 AD. He put to death St. Paul & St. Peter. He arranged with the upcoming Vespasian to incorporate calvary to fight the war of the Jewish rebellion.(These prophetic symbols are seen in the book of Revelation)
The Great Tribulation occurred from AD Feb 67-70 (Sept)

Now, refer back to Daniel 7 again. Do you still think the book of Revelation is future?
I have studied on "the end times" intensely. I can show you that the general resurrection has taken place & Christ's Second Coming occurred.

He already came like "a thief in the night" & to vindicate/ glorify & reward OT & N.T. saints.

What say you? any agree with my theology?

[Fenris]

But the antique view(which I have nicknamed preterist-bc it relies on the inspired writings of Scripture) says this occurred in 70AD.(at the 3rd & final destruction Of Jerusalem & the "end of the age "(GR. aeon) or Old covenant/Jewish age)

Third destruction? There were only two Jewish Temples.

[threebigrocks]

What say you? any agree with my theology?

Why do we still die if this is eternity?

[RoadWarrior]

Third destruction? There were only two Jewish Temples.

Hi Fenris,

I seem to remember there being 3.

1. Built by Solomon
2. Rebuilt after the return from Babylon
3. Built by Herod.

Am I wrong? Thanks.

[Teke]

I'm not sure what your trying to prove with scripture Allegra. I could say the dead aren't walking around in new bodies, but you'd counter with an answer like their new bodies are spiritual. Since we don't know if the new body is sensual like this one, a case can't really be made on the matter.

In Orthodoxy we don't put limits on God, so anything is possible. The final judgment can be anytime, as the "end times" are all the time. Which is why we are to be ready all the time. That's about as dogmatic as it gets.

There are a great many desert fathers and monastics who speak of the after life and the experience of it. From that information, the body is not sensual as this one is.
In Orthodoxy there is a tradition of praying for the departed for forty days after their death. It is believed they go through, what I will call an adjustment in that period. This is also why a dying Christian is told, if they don't already know, that they will not die, but they will go through something. One description uses the term "toll houses".

It is a fascinating subject nonetheless.

[Teke]

Why do we still die if this is eternity?

We could liken that question to why Revelations ends with the good and bad altogether (Rev. 22:15) and not only good people......

[Allegra]

Third destruction? There were only two Jewish Temples.

I was careful not to say temple when I said 3 destructions of Jerusalem if you look closer.
The first destruction of Jerusalem (and Solomon's temple) was by the Babylonian king-Nebuchadnezzar.
The second destruction of Jerusalem was by Antiochus Epiphanes in about 163BC. He defiled the temple. It had to be cleansed of the Hellenistic filth for 2300 days. It's written in Daniel 8.
The third time Jerusalem was destroyed(but the same post-exilic temple- rejuvenated by Herod the Great) was the final time in 70AD.

Yes, I agree. There were 2 temples.

[Allegra]

Why do we still die if this is eternity?

This isn't eternity (or heaven) 3br.
We have life eternal in Christ -but we still must die once. Christ defeated Satan & spiritual death. That was from Adam's sin.
There is no 2nd death for us. We go to be glorified with Christ immediately upon our physical death. Just like "my buddy" St. Paul said in 1&2 Corinthians-since that happened for him & the other 1st century believers(but not until 70AD) at his last or 7th trumpet. But it's all individual now since 70AD+.
The unbelievers have no lines & no waiting in Hades for resurrection either. It's straight to Lake of Fire.

[Allegra]

I'm not sure what your trying to prove with scripture Allegra. I could say the dead aren't walking around in new bodies, but you'd counter with an answer like their new bodies are spiritual. Since we don't know if the new body is sensual like this one, a case can't really be made on the matter.

You must mean you don't understand my points from the little amount of scripture I've given so far? I understand that. I have read more than a dozen books including a couple history books on this related eschatology doctrine. It didn't all jump at me at once. I was only seeking the truth. And from the best teachers, imo.

In Orthodoxy we don't put limits on God, so anything is possible. The final judgment can be anytime, as the "end times" are all the time. Which is why we are to be ready all the time. That's about as dogmatic as it gets.

Ok that's a given about God. But you know, according to the Bible, "end times" is not "the end of the world & human history"
Eschatology is the study of "last things" but it is the last things of God's plan for the salvation of mankind. That's what Revelation is showing: God's plan of good defeating evil.
And when was this "end?" Or Last Day or Great Day of God? This was the end of the age. This word is in the Greek "age" or aeon, not "world", like some modern so-called updated Bible versions have it written.
The "end of the age" was the end of Judaism. In 70AD. When "the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." (Daniel 12:7b)
The OT saints (remnant) were faithful & did not break the old covenant.
Thus all Israel (the remnant seed & the new gentile Christians) would be saved. (See Romans 11:26) And they were. Praise God!

There are a great many desert fathers and monastics who speak of the after life and the experience of it. From that information, the body is not sensual as this one is.
In Orthodoxy there is a tradition of praying for the departed for forty days after their death. It is believed they go through, what I will call an adjustment in that period. This is also why a dying Christian is told, if they don't already know, that they will not die, but they will go through something. One description uses the term "toll houses".

You know, I don't know what you mean here except that it brings to mind the Corinthians who became believers but still baptized for the dead. Nothing wrong with that. Paul was trying to get a message across that Jesus did rise from the dead, and their loved ones "who were now dying & they were afraid they would miss His coming" would not rise. So Paul spoke to them where they were at, or could understand. That he had full faith that the dead in Christ will rise!

[threebigrocks]

This isn't eternity (or heaven) 3br.
We have life eternal in Christ -but we still must die once. Christ defeated Satan & spiritual death. That was from Adam's sin.
There is no 2nd death for us. We go to be glorified with Christ immediately upon our physical death. Just like "my buddy" St. Paul said in 1&2 Corinthians-since that happened for him & the other 1st century believers(but not until 70AD) at his last or 7th trumpet. But it's all individual now since 70AD+.
The unbelievers have no lines & no waiting in Hades for resurrection either. It's straight to Lake of Fire.

Then we must be in hell if Christ has already come again. Once our body dies, we can no longer sin. I don't know of anyone who is still on this earth that is sinless.

What do you mean by second death? When you say we go, how is that - body and spirit or just spirit or just body?

[Allegra]

Then we must be in hell if Christ has already come again. Once our body dies, we can no longer sin. I don't know of anyone who is still on this earth that is sinless.

I'm not understanding this reasoning. What does Christ coming again have to do with us being in hell?
And he returned to consummate salvation for those waiting for Him in the 1st century AD, not us, we aren't dead yet. Hebrews was written, let's say 62 AD-but before AD70.
Hebrews 9:26-28
26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

And right, we are not sinless. But look at what 1John 1:7-2:2 says:
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 2

1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the whole world.

What do you mean by second death? When you say we go, how is that - body and spirit or just spirit or just body?

Well, what did Jesus mean by "the second death"?
Look at Rev.20:4-6 for example:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
OK, this is describing, let's say, the Apostles. They reigned as priests with & for Christ in their earthly life. Now they are shown to be glorified after that death.
The second death is the Lake of Fire. (Rev.20:14-15)
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Ok. But one has to take this time period written into consideration. Since AD70, Abraham's "bosom" & Hades emptied. The first went to glory in heaven & Hades went to the Lake of Fire. So now, there is judgment immediately upon death. You know- up or down. Do the wicked die twice? Well, they die physically once (as all do) And bc they do not have the Holy Spirit as a deposit for eternal life, they die again in the sense that they do not live again in a glorious state in heaven.

Spirit & body. It isn't some ethereal spirit. Angels have substance. Jesus said at the resurrection we would be like angels in heaven.
Also, to me, it's like St. Paul describes our glorified bodies in 1Cor.15:35-38:
A Glorious Body


35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

We have the Holy Spirit as a "seed" or deposit. Praise God!

[Fenris]

Hi Fenris,

I seem to remember there being 3.

1. Built by Solomon
2. Rebuilt after the return from Babylon
3. Built by Herod.

Am I wrong? Thanks.

The Temple built after the return from Babylon was not destroyed. Herod simply expanded on it.

The destruction of two temples was actually inferred to many times in the Tanach. For example, Isaiah 40 begins with the words "Console, console My people..." One consolation for the first temple and one consolation for the second temple.

[Fenris]

I was careful not to say temple when I said 3 destructions of Jerusalem if you look closer.
The first destruction of Jerusalem (and Solomon's temple) was by the Babylonian king-Nebuchadnezzar.
The second destruction of Jerusalem was by Antiochus Epiphanes in about 163BC. He defiled the temple. It had to be cleansed of the Hellenistic filth for 2300 days. It's written in Daniel 8.

Hmm. I don't know if Antiochus destroyed the city. It is true that he defiled the temple, but I don't think that it is the same thing.

[Teke]

You must mean you don't understand my points from the little amount of scripture I've given so far? I understand that. I have read more than a dozen books including a couple history books on this related eschatology doctrine. It didn't all jump at me at once. I was only seeking the truth. And from the best teachers, imo.

I've studied it a great deal also. Which is why I said that with scripture, I know what you will counter with using scripture. IOW it is futile at some point to continue to speculate with scripture. One can only go so far on this subject using scripture.

Ok that's a given about God. But you know, according to the Bible, "end times" is not "the end of the world & human history"

Yes, I understand, which is why I posted what I did.

Eschatology is the study of "last things" but it is the last things of God's plan for the salvation of mankind.

Agreed.

That's what Revelation is showing: God's plan of good defeating evil.
And when was this "end?" Or Last Day or Great Day of God? This was the end of the age. This word is in the Greek "age" or aeon, not "world", like some modern so-called updated Bible versions have it written.

I agree, but Revelation is also liturgical which makes it eternal and linked with the cosmos as man is.
Also, as I pointed out, the question of good defeating evil comes in at the end of Revelation where it clearly states there is still evil outside the good.

The "end of the age" was the end of Judaism. In 70AD. When "the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." (Daniel 12:7b)
The OT saints (remnant) were faithful & did not break the old covenant.
Thus all Israel (the remnant seed & the new gentile Christians) would be saved. (See Romans 11:26) And they were. Praise God!

Amen.

You know, I don't know what you mean here except that it brings to mind the Corinthians who became believers but still baptized for the dead. Nothing wrong with that. Paul was trying to get a message across that Jesus did rise from the dead, and their loved ones "who were now dying & they were afraid they would miss His coming" would not rise. So Paul spoke to them where they were at, or could understand. That he had full faith that the dead in Christ will rise!

I wasn't using scripture and being literal, but speculative. . The risen body is a new creation not made with hands, meaning man doesn't have anything to do with it's creation such as pro creation.
So my point is, that even if your right about scripture, you have no other proof of such. Which is why I can agree with what you've put forth about scripture, but there is no evidence of such as risen bodies, except in other historical church documents.

Bottom line, even if you do prove your point with scripture, what do you have to further the premise. That is what I'm getting at. I've agreed with you, now what. Where do you go from there....

[Allegra]

So my point is, that even if your right about scripture, you have no other proof of such. Which is why I can agree with what you've put forth about scripture, but there is no evidence of such as risen bodies, except in other historical church documents.

Bottom line, even if you do prove your point with scripture, what do you have to further the premise. That is what I'm getting at. I've agreed with you, now what. Where do you go from there....

Well Teke,
I will be as literal as possible. Today's popular interpretations of "end times" have run amok. Preachers shouldn't be preaching on "end times" in the 1st place, imo. Now it seems they have committed themselves to a certain doctrine,etc. I think they ran out of any exciting or sensational teaching to hold their audience. It's not entirely their fault. They may have believed their dogma bc of the lack of documentation, misunderstanding & confusion from the early Apostolic church fathers following the inspired writers (70AD-120AD) Then there were the heresies that threatened the church. the 2nd century AD (such as the Ebionite heresy) So, leaders, like Polycarp, had other concerns- immediate concerns. So, I believe, now we need preterist teachers bc of what seems to be serious eschatological errors from futuristic preachers,( which I think affects quality of lives.)
But what happened to the apostles & disciples who supposedly would have lived to the time of the coming of the Lord? I find it very hard to believe that any of the apostled or their faithful disciples (e.g. Timothy, Titus, Silas, Luke, Mark, Gaius, Aristarchus, AND the apostle John) lived beyond 70AD. It believe, like some of preterists, that they were "raptured. The concept of a rapture is not really foreign to the Bible. Remember Enoch(Gen 5:24) Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away. Others-Elijah was "taken away" Philip disappeared from one place to another in Acts.
Anyway, my point is that I do , & I will, prove Scripture with my theology.
Scripture is the best & only proof to reconcile & uninspired writings with.(history,etc.)
So, I love a challenge! Ready to "Rock" & roll!

Here's something to consider. I have read this fella's book (Ed Stevens)
QUESTION: Did Jesus Christ return in AD 70 without fanfare?
ANSWER: I wouldn't exactly call the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 an event “without fanfare.” Josephus mentions some loud voices and trumpet sounds being heard, as well as angelic armies being visible in the sky over Judea at the time of the Jewish revolt (AD 66-70). Jews today still commemorate it in some fashion in almost every joyous occasion they celebrate (the shattered goblet at Jewish weddings, and a special fast day every year in August (Tisha b'Av) are two ways in which they still remember the destruction). Rabbi Davis (from White Plains NY), in his opening remarks of his (1978?) lecture on “Post-Biblical Judaism,” commented that he would begin the study of post-Biblical Judaism with “the end.” Then he said, he would begin with AD 70., because AD 70 was “the end of Biblical Judaism” and the beginning of rabbinic or Talmudic Judaism. Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, “such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.” (Matt. 24:21) A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, “shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt. 27:64) Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God’s presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds. -Edward E. Stevens