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  • Holiness

    Hello all,

    I have done a study on Holiness. I thought I would share the study with you all. Please read it all, and then feel free to post your thoughts. If you have ANY questions, ask away!

    Thanks!

    ----------------------------------------------------
    Holiness:

    What is holiness? Here is a definition of the word, "Holy": "Having a spiritually pure quality." (Source: Dictionary.com)

    What is that spiritually pure quality? Lets do some brainstorming!

    What would mar the spiritual soul of man? ... The answer should be obvious: sin.

    Sin has been a problem ever since Adam & Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. Since then, a formerly perfect world has turned into a world where hatred, wars, and all such of other terrible things are common.

    Even though man fell after that first sin in the Garden, God has wanted to be as close as possible to his people. We see that desire when He commanded Moses to construct a tabernacle for the Israelites. The tabernacle was built so that God could come down and be with His people.

    God could not dwell within the Israelites. Why? ... I'll answer this question, but it is worth thinking over.

    God cannot dwell where sin is. God is pure. The Devil is sin (I John 3:8). God & the Devil cannot live in the same heart. You cannot serve two masters (Matthew 6:24).

    The Israelites were constantly sinning, but every time they would be in trouble, they would call on God to deliver them. God was overly-faithful, and did just that, most of the time. The Israelites, however, kept sinning.

    God cannot dwell in the heart where sin is. That is why he could not dwell within the Israelites. He had to dwell outside of them inside of a building.

    Let us delve further into this study.

    What Is Sin?

    Definition of the word, "Sin":

    1) Transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam.
    2) Any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.
    3) Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

    (Source: Dictionary.com)

    James 4:17"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

    You do not accidentally sin; it is impossible. If you have personal knowledge that an act is sin and you commit that act, you are then a sinner.

    What Are The Effects of Sin?

    Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

    When a man sins he dies spiritually. He once was covered by the blood of Christ, but when he sins, Christ is no longer his Master; he serves another Master:

    I John 3:8 - "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

    Some may say that the word "committeth" here means to practice, as in to do it many times. I ask you, how many times did Adam & Eve have to commit sin to be cast out of the Garden of Eden? Once.

    Here is a definition of the word "commit": "to do; perform; perpetrate: to commit murder; to commit an error." (Source: Dictionary.com)

    How many times did the murderer have to murder before he was considered a murderer? Once, correct? How may times must one sin to become a sinner? Once? Unless you want to change the whole definition of "commit" (Which would take the scripture out of context), then it must be once.

    John 8:34 - "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

    According to scripture, anyone who sins is a servant to sin and is of the Devil. When John writes, "is of the devil," he means that the Devil is that sinners master and he does the Devils work.

    If I say, "That man is of God," it would mean, simply, that God is his master, or he belongs to God and does God's work. It isn't how we talk in these times, but that is what John meant.

    Is it God's Will for Me to Live Holy?

    Sadly, many religions, religious leaders, and religious people believe that it is impossible to live Holy, or without sin. This is a falsehood. Read the scriptures and think on them:

    Romans 12:1 - "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

    "holy, acceptable unto God" - This must mean that nothing less then holy is acceptable unto God.

    Matthew 5:48 - "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

    What is perfect to God? Sinless; pure. If you go back to the Old Testament when they had to offer sacrifices, that sacrifice, whatever it may have been, had to be pure and devoid of any blemish. The Bible commands us to be "living sacrifices"; should we be any less pure than those animal sacrifices?

    I Peter 1:16 - "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."

    If you are living Holy before God, you are living a life free from sin -no sin at all.

    Luke 1:74 - 75:

    (74) "That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear," (75) "In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life."

    I Corinthians 15:34 – "Awake to righteousness, and sin not ..."

    II Timothy 2:19 - "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

    I John 2:1"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

    How can I Live Holy?

    You might say, "All of these scriptures are well and good, but if I cannot act upon them, then what good are they?"

    Thankfully, Christ, when he came down and was crucified, and finally, after he left, gave us power to live above sin.

    Prophesy in the Old Testament:

    Ezekiel 36:26 - 27:

    (26) "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." (27) "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

    Understand, this is waaaay back in the Old Testament. Ezekiel prophesied of God giving man a new heart and a new spirit. He said that God would give the people His spirit and that He would cause them to walk in his statutes.

    In other words, he would empower us to walk according to how God wants us to walk. And we shall keep his judgments and DO THEM!

    Mans' problem, ever since the sin of Adam & Eve has been carnality: the inbred sin. Everyone receives this at birth:

    Romans 5:12 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"

    When we are saved, we are cleansed of our COMMITTED sins. But that inbred sin still lingers within. We cannot live Holy while there yet remains sin in our hearts:

    Romans 8:7 - "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

    Man cannot force himself to be good while he is carnal. He will eventually fall if the carnality lingers and is not cleansed by the Holy Spirit.

    In the New Testament, there is an abundance of talk about living Holy and not sinning. It would seem that Ezekiel's prophecy has been fulfilled!

    Christ speaking about the Holy Ghost (God's spirit, which Ezekiel wrote about):

    John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

    John 16:7 - "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

    The Comforter (Holy Ghost) coming down:

    Acts 2:1 - 4

    (1) "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place." (2) "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting." (3) "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them." (4) "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost..."

    There are two works of grace:

    1) Salvation:

    Matthew 1:21 - "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

    Matthew 26:28 - "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

    John 10:9 - "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."

    Romans 5:9 - "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

    Sanctification:

    Ezekiel 36:26 - 27:

    (26) "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." (27) "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

    Many people believe that you grow into Sanctification: you keep doing better and better. This isn't true. Sanctification is a definite work in which there is a very noticeable change in behavior. Ezekiel said that God would give us a new heart, and that in doing that, it would cause us to keep his judgments and do them!!

    It isn't a gradual change as many believe. Those who believe that never end up living Holy. They keep sinning, and ask forgiveness, and then they keep trying. I'm not sure how they believe that they are getting better and better when they stay at the same level and keep sinning.

    Acts 19:2 - "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."

    Have you been sanctified since you have believed (Since you were saved)?

    I Corinthians 1:30 - "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption"

    II Timothy 2:21 - "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."

    I Thessalonians 4:3 - "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Let us be reminded of Romans 12:1:

    "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

    The Bible clearly states God's vision of His Church:

    Ephesians 5:27 says "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

    God does have standards for his Church, but I will not go into that right now.

    The key to righteousness and living a Holy life is getting that "stony heart" replaced with a "new heart" and becoming Sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

    When we are saved, God comes to dwell within us:

    I Corinthians 3:16 - "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

    I Corinthians 6:19 - "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

    The reason why God is able to live in us is because once Sanctified, we can live free from sin. We can provide a stable dwelling for Him.

    Living Holy is God's plan for us and even though it may be hard at times, it is a well rewarding life. It is a sacrifice, but we are living out Romans 12:1 as God would have us to.

    Matthew 10:22 - "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

    The end!
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Please make sure you have read all of the study and thought on it before you respond. I could have gone on deeper into any of these subjects, but I believe that the amount of information is suffecient.

    If you have ANY questions at all, please let me know! I'll be happy to answer them.

    Thank you!!

    Jake
    Last edited by JollyJake; Jan 11th 2008, 02:43 PM.

  • #2
    Sanctification is a progressive, lifetime experience and not a "definite" second experience following conversion, as you state.

    In one sense, we are "sanctified" ie set apart for God's purpoises at conversion, but the process of sanctification begun at conversion goes on until we are glorified.

    We never become "sinless" as you state this side of glory - there will always be indwelling sin, but as progress and growth in grace are made, throught the enabling of God's Spirit, we sin less and practice righteousness more.

    Comment


    • #3
      Sanctification is a progressive, lifetime experience and not a "definite" second experience following conversion, as you state.
      Do you have scripture for this?

      In one sense, we are "sanctified" ie set apart for God's purpoises at conversion, but the process of sanctification begun at conversion goes on until we are glorified.
      Salvation saves us & sanctification cleanses the inbred sin. They are two different works which happen at two different times.

      New Testament santcification isn't just about being "set apart," there is a heart change as it says in Ezekiel. Let me bring you the scripture again:

      Ezekiel 36:26 - 27:

      (26) "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." (27) "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

      Once that inbred sin is gone, you can live the way God wants you to. I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it reads that the change will be over time. In fact, I read this in II Corinthians 5:17:

      "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

      We never become "sinless" as you state this side of glory - there will always be indwelling sin, but as progress and growth in grace are made, throught the enabling of God's Spirit, we sin less and practice righteousness more.
      Why not? Do you have scriptures that say that we will always dwell in sin? The life I live and the scriptures I read say otherwise. I'm not trying to be proud or anything, but if I say such things, my life had better back it up!! Do you understand what I mean?

      Thanks for the post!

      Jake
      Last edited by JollyJake; Jan 11th 2008, 01:48 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Any other comments?

        Jake

        Comment


        • #5
          Thoughts, guys? Anyone at all?

          Jake

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JollyJake View Post
            Do you have scripture for this?
            Hi Jake

            This is a huge topic but one or two to start with:-

            "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 Cor 3:18 NKJV

            "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Rom 12:2 NKJV

            No point in commanding this if sanctification is a one-off "done deal"!

            "but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
            To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen." 2 Pet 3:18 NKJV


            Ditto!

            "This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." Gal 5:16 KJV

            Clearly indicative of an ongoing struggle!

            "But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness." Eph 4:20-24 NKJV

            Likewise!

            Salvation saves us & sanctification cleanses the inbred sin. They are two different works which happen at two different times.
            Agreed, yet sanctification starts with salvation and does not finish until we die!

            New Testament santcification isn't just about being "set apart," there is a heart change as it says in Ezekiel. Let me bring you the scripture again:

            Ezekiel 36:26 - 27:

            (26) "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." (27) "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

            Once that inbred sin is gone, you can live the way God wants you to.
            But this new heart is the new birth! And unless we're born of the Spirit, we're not Christians! It's the start of everything!

            I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it reads that the change will be over time.
            See above.

            In fact, I read this in II Corinthians 5:17:

            "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
            New, yes - perfect, no. We still have an "old man" that we daily have to "put off" - we will struggle with sin until the day we die (1 Jn 1:8).

            Why not? Do you have scriptures that say that we will always dwell in sin?
            1 Jn 1:8 - and it's implicit in the Lord's Prayer - we will always have sin that we need to have forgiven.

            The life I live and the scriptures I read say otherwise.
            You must belong to a Holiness Church or something. There are some great books on the subject I'd encourage you to read. The Pursuit of Holiness by Jerry Bridges and Holiness by J C Ryle are two classics.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post
              1 Jn 1:8 - and it's implicit in the Lord's Prayer - we will always have sin that we need to have forgiven.

              You must belong to a Holiness Church or something. There are some great books on the subject I'd encourage you to read. The Pursuit of Holiness by Jerry Bridges and Holiness by J C Ryle are two classics.
              Hello,

              In reference to I John 1:8

              Some have thought since this verse was addressed to Christians it means that Christians sin. This verse is similar to Romans 3:10, “there is none righteous.” There are none righteous or none without sin before Christ cleanses from all sin, (I John 1:7). This verse eight means the same as verse ten, “If we say we have not sinned,” (past tense). Verses 6-7 were also written to Christians, “If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, [sin] we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” This is also the same writer that said, “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not;” and “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin,” (I John 3:6-9).

              New, yes - perfect, no. We still have an "old man" that we daily have to "put off" - we will struggle with sin until the day we die (1 Jn 1:8).
              What is new about a person who is "saved" but yet still commits sin? They are in the same spiritual condition as they were before.

              The Bible contradicts your statement that we can't be perfect:

              The Bible says Job himself was perfect:

              Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

              Christ speaking:

              Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

              He wasn't talking to dead people when this statement was made.

              You don't have to struggle with sin anymore. The Bible teaches we can live above sin and be sinless TODAY, just like Christ was:

              Ezekiel 3:21 – Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou has delivered thy soul.

              The righteous do NOT sin.

              I Corinthians 15:34 – Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame

              Sin NOT...

              II Timothy 2:19 – Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

              Depart from iniquity (sin). If you depart from a dock on a ship, you are separated from that dock. You are not departing from the dock if your ship is still attached to it. Make sense?

              Titus 2:11-12 – For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

              We commanded to live soberly, righteously, godly in THIS PRESENT WORLD. That means while we are ALIVE, right now, TODAY. We are commanded to live sinless right now in this life-time.

              Luke 1:74-75 – That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life

              We are to serve Almighty God in holiness and righteousness ALL the days of our life. That obviously means while we are alive, not dead.

              Also, those who are in Christ (saved) have crucified the flesh. Meaning they have put it to death:

              Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

              Christ said this:

              Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

              This clearly implies that if you commit sin you are a servant/slave to it.

              Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
              Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
              Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

              If Christ himself says that those who commit sin are a slave to it, how could it be written in Romans that those who live righteously are FREE from sin. You can't be a slave to sin and be free from it at the same time.

              A soul who dies in sin cannot make Heaven their home:

              Joh 8:21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

              We cannot go where he is if there is sin in our life (committing sin).

              If anything doesn't make sense, just let me know
              Last edited by faithfulfriend; Jan 14th 2008, 04:23 PM. Reason: Typo!!!!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by faithfulfriend View Post
                Hello,

                In reference to I John 1:8

                Some have thought since this verse was addressed to Christians it means that Christians sin.


                It does - everyone sins, except Christ.

                "When they sin against You (for there is no man who does not sin)..." 1 Kgs 8:46a NASB

                This verse is similar to Romans 3:10, “there is none righteous.” There are none righteous or none without sin before Christ cleanses from all sin, (I John 1:7).


                What does that cleansing mean? Where does it say that the presence of sin is removed from our lives? Or our sin nature?

                This verse eight means the same as verse ten, “If we say we have not sinned,” (past tense).


                No - it is different - otherwise John would have been repeating himself unnecessarily. "If we say we HAVE no sin..." clearly refers to the PRESENT.

                Verses 6-7 were also written to Christians, “If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, [sin] we lie,


                Yes, it's continually walking he's talking about - as a general rule of life.

                and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” This is also the same writer that said, “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not;” and “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin,” (I John 3:6-9).


                If you know anything about NT Greek, you'll know that these verses are in the continuous present tense, denoting a settled way of life/habit/practice. This tense appears throughout the letter.

                What is new about a person who is "saved" but yet still commits sin? They are in the same spiritual condition as they were before.
                No - they have a new desire and ability to overcome sin and live a righteous life, which they did not have before because they were spiriutally dead.

                The Bible contradicts your statement that we can't be perfect:

                The Bible says Job himself was perfect:

                Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
                So are you saying Job was sinless, then? If so, he had no need for a redeemer, yet he said "I know that my redeemer lives".

                Christ speaking:

                Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

                He wasn't talking to dead people when this statement was made.
                But he knew it was impossible for them to achieve - he was setting the standard of perfect righteousness, so that they would realise they could never achieve it - and realise their need of Him as their Saviour.

                You don't have to struggle with sin anymore.
                Really? Wonder why the Bible doesn't condemn that mindset, then, but simpy acknowledges it and gives words of encouragement to those in such a struggle?

                "Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

                "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
                nor be weary when reproved by him.
                For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
                and chastises every son whom he receives."


                It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?" Heb 12:3-7 ESV

                The Bible teaches we can live above sin and be sinless TODAY, just like Christ was:

                Ezekiel 3:21 – Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou has delivered thy soul.

                The righteous do NOT sin.
                As a general rule, amen! But no one is sinless but Christ alone.

                I Corinthians 15:34 – Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame

                Sin NOT...
                Yep - no problem with that.

                II Timothy 2:19 – Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

                Depart from iniquity (sin).
                Amen again!

                If you depart from a dock on a ship, you are separated from that dock. You are not departing from the dock if your ship is still attached to it. Make sense?
                But do you deny that we have a sinful nature that we daily have to struggle with? Sinless perfection is nowhere taught in Scripture - until we get to glory!

                Titus 2:11-12 – For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.
                Amen - notice he doesn't say "sinlessly" or "perfectly".

                We commanded to live soberly, righteously, godly in THIS PRESENT WORLD. That means while we are ALIVE, right now, TODAY. We are commanded to live sinless right now in this life-time.
                No - we are command to live holy and righteous lives - there is a difference between that and sinlessness.

                Luke 1:74-75 – That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life

                We are to serve Almighty God in holiness and righteousness ALL the days of our life. That obviously means while we are alive, not dead.
                Again, no problem with that.

                Also, those who are in Christ (saved) have crucified the flesh. Meaning they have put it to death:

                Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
                Yes, but we have a daily struggle - the Galatian and Ephesian passages i referred to in an earlier post.

                Christ said this:

                Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
                Again, continuous present tense (one of John's favourites - I reckon he got much of the inspiration for his first letter from this verse!).

                This clearly implies that if you commit sin you are a servant/slave to it.
                If you keep on practising it as a general rule, agreed.

                Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
                Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
                Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

                If Christ himself says that those who commit sin are a slave to it, how could it be written in Romans that those who live righteously are FREE from sin. You can't be a slave to sin and be free from it at the same time.
                You're making a good case and it's very challenging, but I contend that we will never be totally free from the presence of sin and the temptation to sin this side of glory. 1 Jn 2:1-2

                A soul who dies in sin cannot make Heaven their home:

                Joh 8:21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

                We cannot go where he is if their is sin in our life (committing sin).
                So are you saying that it is only those who achieve sinless perfection who will go to Heaven?

                Comment


                • #9
                  My comments are in blue. If you have any questions/comments feel free. Also I'd like to say that I appreciate your good attitude towards this discussion. I've all but left another forum because of the childish name-calling that would occur because of the discussion of sin.


                  Originally Posted by faithfulfriend
                  Hello,

                  In reference to I John 1:8

                  Some have thought since this verse was addressed to Christians it means that Christians sin.


                  It does - everyone sins, except Christ.

                  "When they sin against You (for there is no man who does not sin)..." 1 Kgs 8:46a NASB

                  I Kings 8:46 “...for there is no man that sinneth not…” Ecclesiastes 7:20, “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Before Christ it was, “… not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins,” (Heb. 10:4). Men were accepted of God when they conformed to the standard of His then revealed will. But even in those days some were considered by God to be “perfect”. “Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations” (Gen. 6:9) and Job was “…a perfect and an up*right man…” (Job 1:8).


                  Before Christ it was impossible for people to live sinless, that is the whole reason why he came!

                  Quote:

                  This verse is similar to Romans 3:10, “there is none righteous.” There are none righteous or none without sin before Christ cleanses from all sin, (I John 1:7).


                  What does that cleansing mean? Where does it say that the presence of sin is removed from our lives? Or our sin nature?

                  Cleanse: to cleanse:--(make) clean(-se), purge, purify. The presence of sin (carnal nature) is removed once a soul has been biblically Sanctified.

                  I don’t have scripture off the top of my head, give me time to research and I’ll answer this properly. Romans 6 is a very important book to read concerning sin. There is much confusion about it, so read it carefully.
                  Rom. 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? GOD FORBID. How shall we, that are DEAD TO SIN, live any longer therein? Rom. 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom. 6:7 For he that is dead is FREED FROM SIN. Rom. 6:11 Be DEAD indeed UNTO SIN, but ALIVE UNTO GOD through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom. 6:12 LET NOT SIN therefore reign in your MORTAL BODY

                  Quote:

                  This verse eight means the same as verse ten, “If we say we have not sinned,” (past tense).


                  No - it is different - otherwise John would have been repeating himself unnecessarily. "If we say we HAVE no sin..." clearly refers to the PRESENT.

                  The Bible teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and therefore all need a Saviour to reconcile them to God. John addressed this to those claiming they had no guilt, no pollution of sin, and no need of a Saviour. This is not referring to someone that has been born again through the blood of the Lamb and has been cleansed “from all unrighteousness” (I Jn. 1:9).
                  John said, “These things write I unto you, that ye sin not (I Jn. 2:1). This message is clearly declared throughout his epistles:
                  “. . . the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” I Jn. 1:7.
                  “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” I Jn. 2:4.
                  “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins…Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil, for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin…In this the children of God are manifest and the children of the devil . . .” I Jn. 3:5-10.
                  The apostle’s message is clear and is in accordance with other New Testament writers.


                  Quote:

                  Verses 6-7 were also written to Christians, “If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, [sin] we lie,


                  Yes, it's continually walking he's talking about - as a general rule of life.

                  Correct. Continually walking in righteousness. Righteousness means without guilt or sin. Righteousness ultimately means sinless.


                  Quote:

                  and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” This is also the same writer that said, “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not;” and “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin,” (I John 3:6-9).


                  If you know anything about NT Greek, you'll know that these verses are in the continuous present tense, denoting a settled way of life/habit/practice. This tense appears throughout the letter.
                  Quote:
                  What is new about a person who is "saved" but yet still commits sin? They are in the same spiritual condition as they were before.
                  No - they have a new desire and ability to overcome sin and live a righteous life, which they did not have before because they were spiriutally dead.

                  How does a person commit sin and overcome it at the same time? That does not even make sense. A righteous life IS a SINless life!


                  Quote:
                  The Bible contradicts your statement that we can't be perfect:

                  The Bible says Job himself was perfect:

                  Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
                  So are you saying Job was sinless, then? If so, he had no need for a redeemer, yet he said "I know that my redeemer lives".

                  Job was considered perfect by God. It WAS the Old Testament….see above concerning the Old Testament perfectness.


                  Quote:
                  Christ speaking:

                  Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

                  He wasn't talking to dead people when this statement was made.
                  But he knew it was impossible for them to achieve - he was setting the standard of perfect righteousness, so that they would realise they could never achieve it - and realise their need of Him as their Saviour.

                  There’s nowhere that says we can’t live above sin, or that we can’t be sinless. The God I serve has given little old me the power to resist EVERY temptation and live sinless, just like the Bible demands.

                  1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
                  This scripture is speaking about Christ. As he is, so are WE IN THIS WORLD. Christ was sinless correct? This scripture states that just like Christ was, so are WE. You can’t be like Christ if you are committing sin!

                  Quote:
                  You don't have to struggle with sin anymore.
                  Really? Wonder why the Bible doesn't condemn that mindset, then, but simpy acknowledges it and gives words of encouragement to those in such a struggle?

                  "Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

                  "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
                  nor be weary when reproved by him.
                  For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
                  and chastises every son whom he receives."


                  It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?" Heb 12:3-7 ESV

                  Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

                  Without holiness (sinless-ness)….NO man shall see the Lord.

                  Quote:
                  The Bible teaches we can live above sin and be sinless TODAY, just like Christ was:

                  Ezekiel 3:21 – Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou has delivered thy soul.

                  The righteous do NOT sin.
                  As a general rule, amen! But no one is sinless but Christ alone.

                  Righteous means WITHOUT sin:

                  John 5:14 Behold, thou art made whole: SIN NO MORE, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
                  Sin no more. Would the Bible command something that was impossible? No! If you sin no more, you’re sinless!
                  Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
                  God heareth NOT sinners, unless it is a prayer of true Bible repentance.
                  Also, the Bible says you must FORSAKE sin in order to be shown mercy. Forsake means to leave altogether, it is no longer apart of you:
                  Pr 28:13 ¶ He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

                  Quote:
                  I Corinthians 15:34 – Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame

                  Sin NOT...
                  Yep - no problem with that.
                  Quote:
                  II Timothy 2:19 – Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

                  Depart from iniquity (sin).
                  Amen again!
                  Quote:
                  If you depart from a dock on a ship, you are separated from that dock. You are not departing from the dock if your ship is still attached to it. Make sense?
                  But do you deny that we have a sinful nature that we daily have to struggle with? Sinless perfection is nowhere taught in Scripture - until we get to glory!

                  Sanctification purges your sinful nature, that is why it is a definite 2nd work of grace

                  I’m sorry, but you cannot even get to Glory unless you live sinless today!
                  Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
                  Joh 8:21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

                  Quote:
                  Titus 2:11-12 – For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.
                  Amen - notice he doesn't say "sinlessly" or "perfectly".

                  Righteousness and godliness IS sinless!

                  1: acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin2 a: morally right or justifiable <a righteous decision>b: arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality <righteous indignation>

                  Quote:
                  We commanded to live soberly, righteously, godly in THIS PRESENT WORLD. That means while we are ALIVE, right now, TODAY. We are commanded to live sinless right now in this life-time.
                  No - we are command to live holy and righteous lives - there is a difference between that and sinlessness.

                  That is incorrect. Righteousness and godliness = sinlessness. The Bible constantly commands for us to NOT commit sin.


                  Quote:
                  Luke 1:74-75 – That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life

                  We are to serve Almighty God in holiness and righteousness ALL the days of our life. That obviously means while we are alive, not dead.
                  Again, no problem with that.
                  Quote:
                  Also, those who are in Christ (saved) have crucified the flesh. Meaning they have put it to death:

                  Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
                  Yes, but we have a daily struggle - the Galatian and Ephesian passages i referred to in an earlier post.

                  There will be temptations yes, absolutely. But you do not have to give INTO temptations. Temptations are NOT sin, but that’s a whole brand new big study. Christ himself was tempted, but overcame them, therefore he remained sinless. The Bible says we CAN overcome EVERY temptation:

                  Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
                  2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
                  1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
                  Thank God I don’t have to give into temptation, I can live free from sin!

                  Quote:
                  Christ said this:

                  Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
                  Again, continuous present tense (one of John's favourites - I reckon he got much of the inspiration for his first letter from this verse!).
                  Quote:
                  This clearly implies that if you commit sin you are a servant/slave to it.
                  If you keep on practising it as a general rule, agreed.

                  It only takes 1 sin to make you a sinner, just like it takes one lie to make you a liar. If you commit one sin, you have therefore forfeited Salvation, and have become a sinner.


                  Quote:
                  Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
                  Ro 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
                  Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

                  If Christ himself says that those who commit sin are a slave to it, how could it be written in Romans that those who live righteously are FREE from sin. You can't be a slave to sin and be free from it at the same time.
                  You're making a good case and it's very challenging, but I contend that we will never be totally free from the presence of sin and the temptation to sin this side of glory. 1 Jn 2:1-2

                  Tons of scriptures have already been posted stating that we can live free from sin, it is possible. The issue is not whether or not a person CAN live sinless, the issue is whether or not people WANT to.


                  Quote:
                  A soul who dies in sin cannot make Heaven their home:

                  Joh 8:21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

                  We cannot go where he is if their is sin in our life (committing sin).
                  So are you saying that it is only those who achieve sinless perfection who will go to Heaven?

                  What does the Bible scriptures say?

                  Iniquity is sin.

                  Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

                  Lu 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

                  Joh 8:21 ¶ Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It does - everyone sins, except Christ.

                    "When they sin against You (for there is no man who does not sin)..." 1 Kgs 8:46a NASB
                    It is important to remember that this scripture is in the OLD TESTAMENT. There is hardly any talk about being about perfect and sinless (Enoch may have been, but he is one of the few that were in the Old Testament). Christ had not come and the comforter had not come, so the people were continually sinning because of their carnal nature.

                    What does that cleansing mean? Where does it say that the presence of sin is removed from our lives? Or our sin nature?
                    I'm not home at the moment. I will address this later on.

                    ----------------------
                    I John 1:8 - 10

                    8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

                    I've read commentaries on this scripture before (Specifically Adam Clarkes') and this was meant for those who were sinners, yet said that they had no sin at all. Even though they were sinners, they denied it. I believe they were agnostics.

                    9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
                    10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

                    Reinforcing 8: if we say that we have never sinned, we are a liar. All HAVE sinned and come short of the glory of God.

                    So are you saying Job was sinless, then? If so, he had no need for a redeemer, yet he said "I know that my redeemer lives".
                    The Bible says Job was perfect. Whether or not he led a sinless life, God only knows.

                    You are misunderstanding. Those who live Holy, sinless lives have been redeemed by Christ's blood. Sanctification (Which gives us the Holy Ghost) empowers us to live free from sin.

                    But he knew it was impossible for them to achieve - he was setting the standard of perfect righteousness, so that they would realise they could never achieve it - and realise their need of Him as their Saviour.
                    Why would he tell us to do something we couldn't do? It doesn't make any sense.

                    So are you saying that it is only those who achieve sinless perfection who will go to Heaven?
                    It was God's plan for his people to live Holy, sin-free lives. It was not and is not his plan for his people to continually backslide and fight a losing battle.

                    When judgment day comes, we will be judged on whether or not we had sin in our lives at that time. If we are covered by the blood of Christ, then we will enter in.

                    But if we have sinned and that one, small blot is on our hearts: we will be condemned to a Devil's hell.

                    Forgiveness is a lot more then just getting down and asking God to forgive you. It is a very serious thing. When you continually backslide, the more you ask God to forgive you, the more it becomes a form. That is why backsliding is not a light thing.

                    Thanks for replying!!

                    Jake

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JollyJake View Post
                      It is important to remember that this scripture is in the OLD TESTAMENT. There is hardly any talk about being about perfect and sinless (Enoch may have been, but he is one of the few that were in the Old Testament). Christ had not come and the comforter had not come, so the people were continually sinning because of their carnal nature.



                      I'm not home at the moment. I will address this later on.

                      ----------------------
                      I John 1:8 - 10

                      8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

                      I've read commentaries on this scripture before (Specifically Adam Clarkes') and this was meant for those who were sinners, yet said that they had no sin at all. Even though they were sinners, they denied it. I believe they were agnostics.

                      9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
                      10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

                      Reinforcing 8: if we say that we have never sinned, we are a liar. All HAVE sinned and come short of the glory of God.



                      The Bible says Job was perfect. Whether or not he led a sinless life, God only knows.

                      You are misunderstanding. Those who live Holy, sinless lives have been redeemed by Christ's blood. Sanctification (Which gives us the Holy Ghost) empowers us to live free from sin.



                      Why would he tell us to do something we couldn't do? It doesn't make any sense.



                      It was God's plan for his people to live Holy, sin-free lives. It was not and is not his plan for his people to continually backslide and fight a losing battle.

                      When judgment day comes, we will be judged on whether or not we had sin in our lives at that time. If we are covered by the blood of Christ, then we will enter in.

                      But if we have sinned and that one, small blot is on our hearts: we will be condemned to a Devil's hell.

                      Forgiveness is a lot more then just getting down and asking God to forgive you. It is a very serious thing. When you continually backslide, the more you ask God to forgive you, the more it becomes a form. That is why backsliding is not a light thing.

                      Thanks for replying!!

                      Jake
                      Hi

                      Just to say i've not forgotten about your post - a combination of wanting to do some research and not having enough time to respond - will hopefully do so over the weekend.

                      Nigel

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Greetings Jake & Faithfulfriend,

                        If sinless perfection can be attained by any man, certainly we should see Paul, by example, showing himself to have attained unto perfection. But what we see instead is Paul admitting that even he has not attained the perfection he longs for. Paul continues to press toward that goal of perfection he longs to attain, but admits even he has not achieved it.

                        Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
                        Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
                        Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

                        Not only does Paul acknowledge that he has not attained unto the perfection he strives after, he also admonishes those who say they have attained perfection. This could also be speaking of those who are viewed as mature. He tells them to be thus minded as he. That is humbly acknowledge, as does he that perfection is what we seek after, and saying we are perfect makes us otherwise minded, and contrary to the teachings of Paul. Paul further hopes that God will reveal this attitude; thinking themselves to be perfect, for it is a sinful attitude.

                        Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

                        We should hold on to what we have already attained in our reaching for perfection, but remember that we should also walk by the same rule (standard, example) Paul has set for us. And that we should be his like minded followers in seeking to attain perfection, but acknowledging that we have yet to attain unto that we seek.

                        Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
                        Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

                        Finally, Paul seems to be linking those who think they have attained perfection while in these bodies of death to the enemies of the cross of Christ. And concludes by telling us that at His coming Christ will change our vile bodies, and fashion them into glorious bodies.

                        Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
                        Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
                        Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
                        Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

                        1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
                        1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
                        1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

                        I continued to contemplate this topic and did further research. What I discovered is that the way the word "perfect" has been defined in vs 12 is to literally accomplish, consecrate, finish, fulfill, make perfect. But the word "perfect" in vs 15 is defined with a slight difference and speaks of being complete in various applications of labor, growth, mental, or moral character. In other words it seems to imply spiritual maturity. So it would seem that Paul is acknowledgeing that he has not yet been made perfect, and understands that as long as he wears the physical body of death he will not be. So, he speaks to those who show a mature faith, and tells them they should be thus minded. In other words they should have the same mind as Paul regarding perfection, realizing that to be otherwise minded would not be following his example. And in following his example, they too ought to seek to attain perfection, knowing that they will not be made complete until they are changed from their vile bodies of death.

                        Many Blessings,
                        RW
                        Last edited by RogerW; Jan 19th 2008, 06:17 PM. Reason: To add additional thoughts.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RogerW View Post
                          Greetings Jake & Faithfulfriend,

                          If sinless perfection can be attained by any man, certainly we should see Paul, by example, showing himself to have attained unto perfection. But what we see instead is Paul admitting that even he has not attained the perfection he longs for. Paul continues to press toward that goal of perfection he longs to attain, but admits even he has not achieved it.

                          Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
                          Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
                          Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

                          Not only does Paul acknowledge that he has not attained unto the perfection he strives after, he also admonishes those who say they have attained perfection. This could also be speaking of those who are viewed as mature. He tells them to be thus minded as he. That is humbly acknowledge, as does he that perfection is what we seek after, and saying we are perfect makes us otherwise minded, and contrary to the teachings of Paul. Paul further hopes that God will reveal this attitude; thinking themselves to be perfect, for it is a sinful attitude.

                          Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

                          We should hold on to what we have already attained in our reaching for perfection, but remember that we should also walk by the same rule (standard, example) Paul has set for us. And that we should be his like minded followers in seeking to attain perfection, but acknowledging that we have yet to attain unto that we seek.

                          Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
                          Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

                          Finally, Paul seems to be linking those who think they have attained perfection while in these bodies of death to the enemies of the cross of Christ. And concludes by telling us that at His coming Christ will change our vile bodies, and fashion them into glorious bodies.

                          Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
                          Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
                          Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
                          Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

                          1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
                          1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
                          1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

                          I continued to contemplate this topic and did further research. What I discovered is that the way the word "perfect" has been defined in vs 12 is to literally accomplish, consecrate, finish, fulfill, make perfect. But the word "perfect" in vs 15 is defined with a slight difference and speaks of being complete in various applications of labor, growth, mental, or moral character. In other words it seems to imply spiritual maturity. So it would seem that Paul is acknowledgeing that he has not yet been made perfect, and understands that as long as he wears the physical body of death he will not be. So, he speaks to those who show a mature faith, and tells them they should be thus minded. In other words they should have the same mind as Paul regarding perfection, realizing that to be otherwise minded would not be following his example. And in following his example, they too ought to seek to attain perfection, knowing that they will not be made complete until they are changed from their vile bodies of death.

                          Many Blessings,
                          RW
                          Working on a response....just FYI.

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