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  • Does Disobedience Condemn us?

    OK, this is obviously a spin-off of the "Does obedience save?" thread.

    I believe that all my sin is covered by the blood of Jesus. Sin in the past, present, and future as well as sin that's hidden or unknown and known sin.

    I believe that there's no excuse for continuing down the road of obvious disobedience and intentional sin and I also believe that we should strive to live our lives to the very best of our ability. I believe there should be a change of mind(repentance) regarding sin and that we should hate it and strive as much as humanly possible to rid our lives of it by prayer, earnest hearts, and a merciful work of deliverance by our King.

    Having said all that, what happens when I fail?

    In the other thread, it was hinted that failing meant I wasn't really saved or that quite possibly I was outside of God's grace.

    I don't believe that.

    So I'm asking your opinions on this matter. I know there's a lot of seasoned members here and you know how each other believe, but for the sake of this thread, if you wouldn't mind restating for a newbie it would be appreciated.

    In short, is my sin more powerful than Jesus' sacrifice?

    Can my sin 'undo' what Christ did for me on the cross?

    Or does my sin continually put me in a state of 'now I'm saved, now I'm not. Now I am again, now I'm not again.'

    Thanks for taking the time to respond and I appreciate all the posters here. This place is pretty awesome.

  • #2
    IF you sin... you have an advocate with the Father. But stop sinning! You know I had to get that in there.


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    ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

    A.W. Tozer said,
    "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.

    GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

    Comment


    • #3
      I believe that continued disobedience could at some point in time cause you to be condemned. It's certainly not a road one should travel for long. And even if you're not condemned this is what scripture has to say about this:

      Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
      Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.


      Shalom,
      Tanja
      Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
      2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
      If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
      http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



      Comment


      • #4
        James 4:17
        17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

        Extremely plain and clear Bible language, it seems to me!

        Joshua 24:20-24

        20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

        21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.

        22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

        23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.

        24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.


        2 Chronicles 15:1-2
        1 And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded:

        2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

        I heard you. You are saying, "But, those are Old Testament scriptures!"

        Okay, I'll go on to the New Testament....

        John 15:

        4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

        5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

        6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

        Straight from the mouth of Christ Jesus himself!

        Disobedience itself does not condemn us, but our own WILLFULL disobedience does! Here is the scriptural definition of condemnation:

        John 3:19
        19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
        My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

        "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

        Comment


        • #5
          hello,

          That is one of those hard questions.

          I beleive if you are truly born again and saved...your salvation is secure.

          However, many will say in that day Lord , Lord..and Jesus will reply, I have never known you...you workers of iniquity..or meaning sinners.

          The change of heart...when you are born again..brings conviction and knowledge of sin. Now we all sin...but I can't enjoy sinning or take pleasure in sinful behavior. Because the Holy Spirit convicts me.


          I also feel the need to repent when I have sinned....so the question is can a Christian intentially disobey God?.....yes. Can God bring them back like the prodigal son yes.

          However, many may think they are saved and are living in diobedience and sin , They just be deluding them selves. They may have religion, but not a saving faith....they may not have been born again.

          God Bless

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Alpha8207 View Post

            In short, is my sin more powerful than Jesus' sacrifice?

            Can my sin 'undo' what Christ did for me on the cross?

            Or does my sin continually put me in a state of 'now I'm saved, now I'm not. Now I am again, now I'm not again.'

            Thanks for taking the time to respond and I appreciate all the posters here. This place is pretty awesome.

            I'm a newby too but I want to share.
            For the first question, how powerful do you believe Jesus is? You have to answer this for yourself. I believe for me to question is simple. He gave it all to pay for it all (past, present, and future sins). His sacrifice was so pure it had to be done only once.

            Can my sin undo something Christ did? No way , who do I think I am? I cannot do anything to compare to what He did! If you tried to use a scale to compare your sin against His sacrifice, where would you find one that could measure Him?

            Sometimes we forget who He really is, I take that back. I don't think we are able to grasp just how awesome our Father IS!

            1 Corinthians 3:15
            If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
              I believe that continued disobedience could at some point in time cause you to be condemned. It's certainly not a road one should travel for long. And even if you're not condemned this is what scripture has to say about this:

              Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
              Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.


              Shalom,
              Tanja
              Tanja Hi

              The question, what is the full scope of receiving the knowledge of the truth, has to be answered in order to determine the meaning of that verse.

              Does that mean, after hearing the good news, we reject it and go on sinning?

              Or does it mean, after we believe in Jesus and are sealed with the Holy Spirit?

              terrell

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
                I believe that continued disobedience could at some point in time cause you to be condemned. It's certainly not a road one should travel for long. And even if you're not condemned this is what scripture has to say about this:

                Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
                Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

                Shalom,
                Tanja
                Your point would be valid only if "receiving the knowledge of the truth" is equivalent to becoming saved. I'm not so sure that is the case, though. I think it has more to do with people hearing the gospel clearly preached and not responding to it and continuing in their sinful lifestyle.

                Comment


                • #9
                  So are people who are unsuccessful in defeating addictions lost?

                  There can't be a saved addict?

                  I believe there can be.

                  I believe the heart that says "I've said the prayer and I have this addiction that I can't help so I'm gonna go with it"--might be a lost heart.

                  But the heart that says "I've said the prayer and I have this addiction that I can't help but I'm never going to quit fighting and I trust the Lord Jesus to deliver me and forgive me"--might not be a lost heart.

                  Regardless of whether either one has achieved victory over the flesh.

                  Is that a false teaching?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tgallison
                    The question, what is the full scope of receiving the knowledge of the truth, has to be answered in order to determine the meaning of that verse.

                    Does that mean, after hearing the good news, we reject it and go on sinning?

                    Or does it mean, after we believe in Jesus and are sealed with the Holy Spirit?
                    If God has tought me the truth in saying you shall not steal, and i then go on stealing, am i walking in truth or in darkness ? If we reject truth and not practise it, can we be saved ?

                    To mind comes:
                    1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
                    1Jn 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.


                    Originally posted by John146
                    Your point would be valid only if "receiving the knowledge of the truth" is equivalent to becoming saved. I'm not so sure that is the case, though. I think it has more to do with people hearing the gospel clearly preached and not responding to it and continuing in their sinful lifestyle.
                    2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
                    2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.


                    2Th 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

                    Shalom,
                    Tanja
                    Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
                    2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
                    If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
                    http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I believe that there's no excuse for continuing down the road of obvious disobedience and intentional sin and I also believe that we should strive to live our lives to the very best of our ability. I believe there should be a change of mind(repentance) regarding sin and that we should hate it and strive as much as humanly possible to rid our lives of it by prayer, earnest hearts, and a merciful work of deliverance by our King.
                      I think this statement says a lot. And obviously we do this because we love the lord and his ways. But your next questions opens up a whole lot of responses.

                      In short, is my sin more powerful than Jesus' sacrifice?

                      There is only one unforgivable sin all the rest can be covered by Christs work on the cross.


                      Can my sin 'undo' what Christ did for me on the cross?


                      No! But the main thought here is your heart. Did you heart get changed where you become a slave to sin? Did you want to sin more than you love Christ? You see I am not a Once saved always saved person and one of the main reasons I am not is because I know humans are not the same today as they were yesterday and as they will be in the future. Only God is that. People do have a change of heart from time to time. They decide to follow Christ this year, but they may convert to Islam next year. I do not believe this is acceptable in the sight of our lord. Nor do I think it is acceptable for someone to go out and live in adultery and it becomes acceptable in the sight of the lord. Look at King Herod when John the Baptist was on him about living with his brother’s wife. I do not think that was acceptable no matter what people say on this board or anywhere else in this world. I am sure king Herod was a very religious man. Religion was a main way of life for the Jew’s of that time, and I believe that he found a girl he fell head over heals in love with. So he loved her more than he loved God. But if you do not believe that king Herod was a religious man, then look at the merchants of the temple that sold animals for people to buy to sacrifice for their sins. These people were probably very religious. They had jobs in front of the temple itself but Jesus got mad at them because there were cheating the very people who were coming to be forgiven for their sins. Christ showed them that it was a den of thieves. Do you think the Pharisees would have put bad people just outside their temple to sell the very thing that the Jews needed to buy in order to get forgiveness of their sins? Those same Pharisees were chastising Christ for going to eat with sinners. Do you think they would allow those very people to put up store fronts in front of the greatest temple of Jerusalem? No they wouldn’t. And Christ knew that sin was wrong, and to allow it to happen in such a holy place was very, very bad. It was so bad that it made Christ mad! Sin is wrong. If anyone tells us that it is ok to sin they are wrong. The bible is full of passages condemning it. If I had to list them all it would take forever to write this post. Now what happens in salvation is the change of heart. You do not want to sin. If you find yourself in sin, you will stop sinning and pray to the lord to give you strength to give you more self-control. We all will sin and there is no way around it, but the key is that we are not slaves to sin. And when I mean slaves to sin I mean that sin does not control you or your heart, but only God controls your heart. Again let’s look at King Herod. We all know he was living in adultery. Now if he would have taken John’s advice and found a proper wife and asked the Lord for forgiveness he would have been fine. I think your first statement sums things up extremely well. This is the way I see it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Personally,
                        I think alot has to do with how we react when we are confronted with our sin.
                        Do we act like king David ("Where is a nice rock I can crawl under" / full of guilt and shame)
                        or do we react more like the Pharisees ("Of course I did/didn't do that" / so full of self pride that you think you can do no wrong / everything you do is good no matter what it is.).
                        "Love is not about you...and it never was"
                        "Selfishness is inwardly focused, but Love is Always outwardly focused!"

                        I am very anti-abortion, anti-murder, and Pro-Love.
                        Gotta stop repeating myself...

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                        It's main weapon is lack of truth.
                        Please learn the truth about the Marfan syndrome
                        by visiting The National Marfan Foundation.
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                        the best I can.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
                          If God has tought me the truth in saying you shall not steal, and i then go on stealing, am i walking in truth or in darkness ? If we reject truth and not practise it, can we be saved ?

                          To mind comes:
                          1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
                          1Jn 2:6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.




                          Shalom,
                          Tanja
                          Tanja

                          I thought I was saying the same thing as John 146.

                          It is one thing to have knowledge of Jesus Christ, and another thing to accept him as Lord and Saviour, and be sealed by the Holy Spirit, waiting for the day of redemption, from this body of sin.

                          In Jesus Christ, terrell

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It seems to me that accepting Jesus as your Saviour gets you a place in heaven. When you have God's spirit inside you, why would you want to sin?

                            But even if you do sin, this passage in 1 Corinthians seems to sum things up:

                            1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
                            1Co 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
                            1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
                            1Co 3:13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
                            1Co 3:14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
                            1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
                            If you've got your foundations set but then build with hay and straw it will all be destroyed, but you will be saved. Build with gold and silver and your works will endure.
                            24 August 2013 - I've decided to take a break from a number of internet forums, including this one, for my own reasons.
                            I expect to be back at some time in the future, although at present don't know when that will be.
                            I've been here just a few days shy of six years, and those six years have been greatly blessed.

                            ---

                            1Jn 4:1 NKJV Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
                            1Th 5:21-22 NKJV Test all things; hold fast what is good. (22) Abstain from every form of evil.



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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
                              I believe that continued disobedience could at some point in time cause you to be condemned. It's certainly not a road one should travel for long. And even if you're not condemned this is what scripture has to say about this:

                              Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
                              Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.


                              Shalom,
                              Tanja
                              Hi Tanja!

                              IMO, The verses you quote are not about a saved person in Christ.

                              The writer was speaking about those who were still doing daily sacrifice for sin. Trampling the blood of Christ underfoot.


                              My understanding:
                              If after receiving the knowledge of the truth, (Christ died once for all sin) 'there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins' and we [Jews] go on sinning deliberately (by offering daily sacrifices) there is but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries

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