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  • Hypocrites?

    Hypocrite: Lit "one who wears a mask"

    First, this is not a "Conditional vs Eternal Security" issue...so PLEASE don't turn it into one (pretty please? )

    On another thread a question was asked..."how do we know we're saved?", and I saw some answers that basically said "you can't be certain", "You can't know for sure".

    Three verses immediately came to my mind:

    "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may
    continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:12-13 NKJV)

    "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36 NKJV)

    and:

    "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:9-10 NKJV)

    Now then here's the question:

    Having met all the scriptural requirements for Salvation, if we can't know for sure that we're saved...Then aren't we being rank hypocrites every time we share the Gospel?

    What do you think?
    Ιησούς Χριστός ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου



    ****When the Lord opens a door, don't walk through it....run full speed; if it's the wrong one He'll let ya know...sometimes He just wants to see if you'll move at all!****


    A Minister of God Ministry - Support and understanding for a Christian serving in the military

  • #2
    Abba and sons

    Paul says, "because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ".

    Whether you are a son or not, cannot be ascertained by an external 'to do list'. It is a matter of the inward. When the Spirit speaks to your hearts that you are the child of God, you simply are.
    sigpicLife! Just Live It!
    http://www.lifeblog.co.nr/

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    • #3
      Originally posted by ravi4u2 View Post
      Paul says, "because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ".

      Whether you are a son or not, cannot be ascertained by an external 'to do list'. It is a matter of the inward. When the Spirit speaks to your hearts that you are the child of God, you simply are.
      So how can a Christian say He can't know if He's saved?

      How can we tell the unsaved, how to become saved, if we're not sure ourselves?
      Ιησούς Χριστός ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου



      ****When the Lord opens a door, don't walk through it....run full speed; if it's the wrong one He'll let ya know...sometimes He just wants to see if you'll move at all!****


      A Minister of God Ministry - Support and understanding for a Christian serving in the military

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      • #4
        So how can a Christian say He can't know if He's saved?

        How can we tell the unsaved, how to become saved, if we're not sure ourselves?
        I would assume such a statment is not understood in the context it is intended.

        Our status as Christians is based upon God's promises and Jesus Christ alone..every Christian would affrim this and present all the scriptural basis for that because this is our faith, our hope. It's simply not a once and done deal without a process that ends in a destination. To acknowledge that the begining of and the end destination can be one of assurance is one thing as able to be assured of being a truth we can full assurance of when we speak of our salvation..because this is all God's doing and work,yet we can not presume our roles in this have assured anything in our favor or contributed to this process.

        When folks ask how we can "know" this is what would be the basis of our new birth in Christ..our 'conversion' experience as some might perceive it..

        This process of salvation involves a change in us that we call conversion. Conversion is a turning around, leaving one orientation for another. It may be sudden and dramatic, or gradual and cumulative. But in any case it's a new beginning. Following Jesus' words to Nicodemus, "You must be born anew" (John 3:7 RSV), we speak of this conversion as rebirth, new life in Christ, or regeneration.

        Then what happens next, is when Christians abandon all those vain attempts to justify themselves before God, to be seen as "just" in God's eyes through religious and moral practices. It's a time when God's "justifying grace" is experienced and accepted, a time of pardon and forgiveness, of new peace and joy and love, we're justified by God's grace through faith.

        Presumption is understood to be a sin when it comes to this part of the process and the outward process of these visable changes are observed and the basis one presumes is what saves them and put's their assurance alone in nothing else but this IMHO> yet there is an ongoing process with a goal to be saught and reached on the part of the believer that bears testimony of their new life in Christ.

        A false assurance IMHO, is the wrongful belief that there salvation is a one time event that has no part of a process of change that is ongoing in the experience of being reborn..there is no new life that bears a testimony of the birth.

        The goal of the sanctified life is to be perfected in love, to experience the pure love of God and others, a holiness of heart and life, a total death to sin. We're not there yet; but by God's grace, "we're going on to perfection!"

        That's a fundemental experience and truth that get's complicated when trying to explain to an unbeliever and keep it in the context of not making dangerous or assumptions of scriptural errors when they take only single verses of scripture regarding salvation and may be assuming a false basis of assurance is not one when they try to understand this entire process and experience of faith as we understand it as Christians.

        As Christians we are counciled by scripture to recognize our salvation is indeed a process..being reborn is but the first stage and begining, It's to know that after feeling lost and alone, we've been found by God. It's to know that after feeling worthless, we've been redeemed.

        It's to experience a reunion with God.It's a healing of the alienation—the estrangement—we've experienced. In salvation we become whole. Salvation happens to us both now and for the future. It's "eternal life," that new quality of life in unity with God of which the Gospel of John speak's, a life that begins not at death, but in the present.

        IMHO, this about a believer finding the vocabulary to somehow make an accurate and coherent response to all of this and sometimes failing to recognize that unbelievers have little or no point of scriptural reference to understand what it means to say one has the assurance of their salvation in this context when they use the words of hope and faith in Christ's promises..

        On one level we are trying to explain a very profound personal experience of God revealing Himself to us and providing us this gift and all of its assurances, one they do not have then on another level explaining the nature of it with the basis for it as another issue with regard to how it works itself out throughout our lives from the begining and from the eternal perspective.

        Simply throwing a single scripture or a few verses at someone who has no clue how these are related or what context their relevence has is not constructive..nor is it working out our own salvation..and turning to God so that the Holy Spirit is a present active part of our growth progress that does indeed bear a testimony to others that our hope has a reality to it and one we can have an assurance in.
        "On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand; all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand." —My Hope Is Built on Nothing Less, Edward Mote

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        • #5
          Francis of Assisi

          Originally posted by mcgyver View Post
          So how can a Christian say He can't know if He's saved?

          How can we tell the unsaved, how to become saved, if we're not sure ourselves?
          Francis of Assisi supposedly said, "Preach the gospel always. Use words if necessary." Light will always expel darkness and draw others to it. Just live Christ and that is the best testimony.
          sigpicLife! Just Live It!
          http://www.lifeblog.co.nr/

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          • #6
            If a person thinks they possibly "are not saved" then that really is a person that is lacking in faith. Faith, by the very definition of faith, would not allow for that disbelief.


            Visit our new website
            ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

            A.W. Tozer said,
            "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

            GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ProjectPeter View Post
              If a person thinks they possibly "are not saved" then that really is a person that is lacking in faith. Faith, by the very definition of faith, would not allow for that disbelief.
              And to add to this, Jesus said that "rivers of living water will flow out of you", Paul said , we become "new creatures". These are realities and if someone hasn't experienced them then they have not been born again. Our faith should be based on our experience with God and confirmed through the scriptures not the other way around. So in other words one should keep seeking, asking and knocking until these things are realities in their life then they won't doubt. Anyone who has ever fallen down and experienced the force of gravity does not question if it really exists or not. I don't think that many who believe they are part of Christ's body and are void of a new birth experience are hypocrites, they have been deceived by a religious system and or spirit.

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              • #8
                Faith and Intellect

                Originally posted by jiggyfly View Post
                And to add to this, Jesus said that "rivers of living water will flow out of you", Paul said , we become "new creatures". These are realities and if someone hasn't experienced them then they have not been born again. Our faith should be based on our experience with God and confirmed through the scriptures not the other way around. So in other words one should keep seeking, asking and knocking until these things are realities in their life then they won't doubt. Anyone who has ever fallen down and experienced the force of gravity does not question if it really exists or not. I don't think that many who believe they are part of Christ's body and are void of a new birth experience are hypocrites, they have been deceived by a religious system and or spirit.
                I agree. Faith is not about memorising a certain set of words. Faith is of the inward. Jesus said, "You didn't discover this on your own. It was shown to you by my Father in heaven". So, real faith comes when the Father reveals His Son in our hearts. Faith is not an exercise of the intellect.
                sigpicLife! Just Live It!
                http://www.lifeblog.co.nr/

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                • #9
                  Faith it seems it has to be more than God revealing Himself to us through the Word, for Peter experienced that in Mt.16:16,17; and he still didn't have much for faith by looking at his walk. He refuted Christ that same day, he denied the Lord, God may reveal himself, that's the first step but we have to do something with what we have learned or else God will take it all away from us. Lk.8:18;

                  Yes I believe if I die right now I will go to heaven, because of the blood of Christ for I can't earn my way and because of the word of Truth which teaches me the Truth that has set me free from the world of darkness.

                  Working out my salvation with fear and trembling Php.2:12;

                  RJ

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                  • #10
                    Assuming

                    Originally posted by RJ Mac View Post
                    Faith it seems it has to be more than God revealing Himself to us through the Word, for Peter experienced that in Mt.16:16,17; and he still didn't have much for faith by looking at his walk. He refuted Christ that same day, he denied the Lord, God may reveal himself, that's the first step but we have to do something with what we have learned or else God will take it all away from us. Lk.8:18;

                    Yes I believe if I die right now I will go to heaven, because of the blood of Christ for I can't earn my way and because of the word of Truth which teaches me the Truth that has set me free from the world of darkness.

                    Working out my salvation with fear and trembling Php.2:12;

                    RJ
                    Are you assuming that Paul is talking about eternal salvation in Philippians 2:12?
                    sigpicLife! Just Live It!
                    http://www.lifeblog.co.nr/

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                    • #11
                      So far, I agree with the majority of posts here

                      Originally posted by ravi4u2 View Post
                      Are you assuming that Paul is talking about eternal salvation in Philippians 2:12?
                      I'm glad that this verse was brought up...In the thread I was referring to, this very verse was used as a "proof" verse in the poster's answer that "You can't know for sure" (whether you're saved).
                      Ιησούς Χριστός ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου



                      ****When the Lord opens a door, don't walk through it....run full speed; if it's the wrong one He'll let ya know...sometimes He just wants to see if you'll move at all!****


                      A Minister of God Ministry - Support and understanding for a Christian serving in the military

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I believe salvation is salvation, Paul is saying never to take anything for granted but strive to remain in Christ. Fear and trembling because you can fall from God's grace.

                        Gal.5:3,4 "And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You who have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace."

                        Ezek.18:24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for all his treachery which he has committed, for them he will die."

                        This world of darkness has many bobbles that attract and distract the mind, turn around and we find we have drifted from the Truth and are once again entangled in the world of iniquity. God does not judge us based on the righteous deeds we have done in the past nor on the wicked deeds of the past, God will judge us the day we die! On that day will I be a righteous man or a wicked man, Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling, because believe it or not, salvation is not a one time act, it is a lifetime act, and woe to those not found in Christ.

                        Not the amount of works that I do, or lack of sin in my life, its whether I am walking in the light that's what counts, 1Jn.16-8 Jesus covers all my inadequacies. So Paul encourages me to fight the good fight, Php.3:7-21

                        So right now I am walking in the light, I know I have eternal life but I also am very aware I must keep my spiritual wits about me.

                        1Tim.4;16 "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you."

                        To him who has ears to hear let him hear.

                        RJ

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                        • #13
                          Victorious Deliverance

                          Originally posted by mcgyver View Post
                          I'm glad that this verse was brought up...In the thread I was referring to, this very verse was used as a "proof" verse in the poster's answer that "You can't know for sure" (whether you're saved).
                          Originally posted by RJ Mac View Post
                          I believe salvation is salvation, Paul is saying never to take anything for granted but strive to remain in Christ. Fear and trembling because you can fall from God's grace.
                          The word salvation can refer to deliverance from things other than eternal condemnation. Paul says in 1:19 that "this shall turn out for my deliverance". The same Greek word for salvation (used in 2:12) is used for deliverance here, and by looking at the context in 1:12-17 we learn that Paul was expecting to be delivered from his imprisonment in Rome for the Gospel. Physical deliverance was what he meant in 1:19.

                          In the same manner, Paul used the word for salvation again in 1 :28, but this time he was talking about salvation for the Philippians. Salvation from what? In 1 :27-28 he talked about the Philippians' unity of spirit and purpose in "striving together for the faith of the gospel; in no way alarmed by your opponents." Their unity was a sign of destruction for their opponents, and it was a sign of deliverance, "salvation," from their opponents. Those enemies of the faith could not prevail against the believers' unified front. Again, the salvation was physical and temporal, not spiritual and eternal.

                          So twice in Philippians Paul has used the word salvation referring to something other than eternal salvation, before he commands that they "work out [their] salvation" in 2:12.

                          When you trace Paul's line of thought from 1:28 through 2:18, it is obvious that he is talking about God working through the Philippians' temporal suffering which was directed at them by their opponents. So in Phil 2:12 we do not have a call to work to gain eternal salvation. We have instead a call to a victorious deliverance from spiritual defeat in our sufferings.
                          sigpicLife! Just Live It!
                          http://www.lifeblog.co.nr/

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ravi4u2 View Post
                            Francis of Assisi supposedly said, "Preach the gospel always. Use words if necessary." Light will always expel darkness and draw others to it. Just live Christ and that is the best testimony.
                            While one should certainly live the gospel... the idea that they should "use words if necessary" just makes no sense considering Scripture. How can they hear without someone SPEAKING it? Jesus didn't just "live it"... and Jesus is our example.


                            Visit our new website
                            ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                            A.W. Tozer said,
                            "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                            GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ravi4u2 View Post
                              The word salvation can refer to deliverance from things other than eternal condemnation. Paul says in 1:19 that "this shall turn out for my deliverance". The same Greek word for salvation (used in 2:12) is used for deliverance here, and by looking at the context in 1:12-17 we learn that Paul was expecting to be delivered from his imprisonment in Rome for the Gospel. Physical deliverance was what he meant in 1:19.

                              In the same manner, Paul used the word for salvation again in 1 :28, but this time he was talking about salvation for the Philippians. Salvation from what? In 1 :27-28 he talked about the Philippians' unity of spirit and purpose in "striving together for the faith of the gospel; in no way alarmed by your opponents." Their unity was a sign of destruction for their opponents, and it was a sign of deliverance, "salvation," from their opponents. Those enemies of the faith could not prevail against the believers' unified front. Again, the salvation was physical and temporal, not spiritual and eternal.

                              So twice in Philippians Paul has used the word salvation referring to something other than eternal salvation, before he commands that they "work out [their] salvation" in 2:12.

                              When you trace Paul's line of thought from 1:28 through 2:18, it is obvious that he is talking about God working through the Philippians' temporal suffering which was directed at them by their opponents. So in Phil 2:12 we do not have a call to work to gain eternal salvation. We have instead a call to a victorious deliverance from spiritual defeat in our sufferings.
                              Well Mcgyver... so much for this not going into the eternal security area!

                              Yes, that passage is speaking of eternal salvation as the context of that passage brings out.

                              Philippians 2:12 ¶So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
                              13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
                              14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
                              15 that you may prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
                              16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may have cause to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

                              It is an "endure to the end" message. The only think he could be talking about when mentioning the "day of Christ"... is the beginning of eternity. He is not speaking of being saved from their opponents. This entire letter was simply encouraging the Philippian church to hold firm... stand fast... endure.


                              Visit our new website
                              ! The Blog might interest some.. and Lord help me!!!... for those that twitter... there as well.

                              A.W. Tozer said,
                              "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”

                              GO.... SERVE YOUR KING!

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