The Seven Heads

[Kahtar]

Revelation 17:9-11 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I am curious about the various interpretations of what kingdoms these seven heads represent.
I would like to hear the interpretation from the various eschatological 'camps'.

[ahealingman]

The seven heads are seven kings whose kingdom has already come and gone (the first six), you would have to look up history because my mind is too old to remember. The seventh and eightth are the same king, the seventh rules for a short time but dies, the eighth is the same king though he has been brought back to life somehow.

The kingdoms are the 10 horns, this is more likely what you are referring to though I venture no guess as to who they happen to be.

[Kahtar]

The seven heads are seven kings whose kingdom has already come and gone (the first six), you would have to look up history because my mind is too old to remember. The seventh and eightth are the same king, the seventh rules for a short time but dies, the eighth is the same king though he has been brought back to life somehow.

The kingdoms are the 10 horns, this is more likely what you are referring to though I venture no guess as to who they happen to be.

Thank you.
What I am actually after is the names of the seven kingdoms, ie 'Greek Empire', 'Roman Empire", etc. I am not concerned with the ten horns in this thread.

[jeffweeder]

Most believe that they are;
Egypt
Assyria
Babylon
Persia
Greece

5 have fallen and 1 is

Rome

From there we look for another power that ruled the world.
Papal Rome perhaps?
All these powers Had an impact on Gods people.

[danield]

I know I am not speaking from an eschatological camp other than my own, but I believe that the seven kings talked about in Rev 17 are our presidents. I Just do not see kingdoms being stretched out over 1000's of years, but more confined to a generation being able to see it unfold.

Also notice this line and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth. This could be talking about a sudden death in that term and a VP coming in to finish out his Seventh term, but that VP being the 8th king to rule in that 7th term or 7 different elected presidents.

[ahealingman]

Thank you.
What I am actually after is the names of the seven kingdoms, ie 'Greek Empire', 'Roman Empire", etc. I am not concerned with the ten horns in this thread.

I don't believe you understood what I said, its not possible for the seven heads to be seven kingdoms unless you can explain how a kingdom can go to destruction. As far as I know only people/humans go to destruction according to my bible. The beast, being the eighth king and one of the seven, goes to destruction. Unless God changes and starts throwing entire kingdoms into the lake of sulphur this would have to be a person.

[Kahtar]

Okay, I think I understand now.

[markedward]

Revelation 17:9-11 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I am curious about the various interpretations of what kingdoms these seven heads represent.
I would like to hear the interpretation from the various eschatological 'camps'.

When we read history about the British kingdom, and we see multiple kings, we know enough that they didn't all rule at the same time, but consecutively. In my reading, the most coherent reading of this passage is that there have been, up to this point, five kings who served, a sixth one currently in power, and a seventh one to come. Following that, there would be "an eighth" king.

And, since you asked for specific "camps" of interpretation, I'll get more specific and expand a bit: Julius Caesar (1), Augustus (2), Tiberius (3), Caligula (4), Claudius (5), Nero (6). John is told that the seven heads represent both seven hills and seven kings. History calls Rome the "city of the seven hills." The Bible repeatedly refers to Jerusalem as a "prostitute." So I see this as an apostate Jerusalem as riding along with the beast, Rome. John sees that the prostitute rides on the beast, and she is drunk with the blood of the saints, but the prostitute would eventually be destroyed by the beast.

(As I Preterist) I see this as apostate Jerusalem allying herself with the Roman Empire to persecute the Christians during the first century. I believe the Revelation was written during the time of Emperor Nero's reign hence, Nero being the sixth ruler of Rome, the "one [who] is" (and I believe he corresponds to 666/616 back in chapter 13). Then, in the future (in relation to the sixth king's time), during the rule of the "eighth king," the prostitute is destroyed by the eighth king/the beast. Again, I believe this goes back to the first century; the Jews went on to revolt against the Romans, and they in turn destroyed Jerusalem and the temple a mere 40 years after Jesus did His ministry (read: Luke 21:20, 21:5-6, 21:32).

[ross3421]

I don't believe you understood what I said, its not possible for the seven heads to be seven kingdoms unless you can explain how a kingdom can go to destruction. As far as I know only people/humans go to destruction according to my bible. The beast, being the eighth king and one of the seven, goes to destruction. Unless God changes and starts throwing entire kingdoms into the lake of sulphur this would have to be a person.

You are correct, 7 heads are kings NOT kingdoms. I see the 7 heads part of the four beasts which are kings of kingdoms. The 7 heads are kings but not of a kingdom as I would say are more like leaders, princes.

Who are these "seven"?.

Alright what other "seven's" are there in Revelation? In God's kingdom we see 7 churches with 7 angels whom are in charge over them. Is it possible that the 7 kings are in charge over those in Satan's kingdom which have received the mark and our part of his church? I think so.

Mark

[Cyberseeker]

I am curious about the various interpretations of what kingdoms these seven heads represent.
I would like to hear the interpretation from the various eschatological 'camps'.

Hi Kahtar,

Revelation's seven empires needs to be read in conjunction with Daniel's five empires. Its the same list but Revelation starts earlier in history.

Also Daniel includes a temporary period following the break up of Rome into ten smaller nations. This occured in AD476 until the Islamic Empire invaded much of the former Roman territories. (AD622)

Here is my seven:

1. Egypt,
2. Assyria,
3. Babylon,
4. Medo-Persia,
5. Greece,
6. Rome,
7. Islamic Empire,

The 8th is the final world empire which I believe will be European/Islamic in nature.

Cyber

[Kahtar]

Several ideas have been presented. Anyone have anything different?
Danield, do you have an idea of which presidents those would be?
Markdeward, you listed six. Any idea who the seventh and eighth were?
So far, we have:

...Roman Rulers .Kingdoms .............Kings of Blasphemy.......presidents ...............Rulers of Antichrist 'church'

1 Julias Caesar ...Egyptian................Nebuchadnezzar II...........?............?

2 Augustus .........Syrian...................Antiochus of Epiphanes.....?.............?
3 Tiberius ...........Babylonian............Antiochus Eupator............?............?
4 Caligula ...........Medo/Persian.......Crassus...........................?............?

5 Claudius.......... Greek...................Titus..............................?............?
6 Nero ...............Roman..................Domitian..........................?...........?
7 Vespasian........Papal Rome/
...........................Islamic Empire.......Hadrian...........................?...........?
8 Titus.................European/Islamic.....Nebbie II.........................................?...... ........?

[danield]

Danield, do you have an idea of which presidents those would be?

I would truly hate to say because we don’t know for sure, but we could understand some general things that we have found in our time and throughout history and how it correlates to scripture. First of all it talks about the harlot riding the beast. In my minds eye I can picture a relationship of two groups of people intertwined in a unique relationship. It is obvious that the harlot is an economic might for everyone throughout the world. And the one thing that we need more than ever is oil to drive our economic might. The Middle East is rich in oil of course and we import a considerable amount of their production. In turn we deploy our military over there to bring stability for the region. Again notice how the Harlot rides the beast, and a beast in nature has to be tamed in order to ride it. I could only speculate as to when this unique relationship has started but it is in place now for sure. I think a better clue that will solidify which presidents those would be would have to come from this key passage in scripture.

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, KJV [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
NLT Five kings have already fallen, the sixth now reigns, and the seventh is yet to come, but his reign will be brief. “The scarlet beast that was, but is no longer, is the eighth king. He is like the other seven, and he, too, is headed for destruction.

If we take this translation, I think we will see a president in term fall or is not reelected for his second term. And either a VP takes office because it is vacated or is elected in that next 4 year term, and it will be that term that the perdition takes place. Instead of me guessing, I think when you see that happen, we need to take notice.However I do want to talk a bit about the other ideas that are in this thread because I really would love to come around to those train of thoughts. A few questions I have are when Christ made this statement
“Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.


How can we interpret revelation’s major events not happening within one generation? This should be so clear because Christ mentioned it vividly.
Also For those that believe that Rome is the 7th beast, I am not sure I follow. You see even though Rome sits on 7 hills the Vatican does not. And neither are world powers and neither of them do not corrupt the world of immorality nor have they ever. So we have four really gaping holes in Prophesy just right there. Also I do not see an economic relationship between the Vatican and Jerusalem, and how many shiploads of cargo does the Vatican ship to Jerusalem or visa versa each year. Somehow, I just do not think that route would even pay the interest on the purchase of one contianer ship. Also, if we think that things happened back in Nero’s days, how are we going to interpret the scriptures that point to the complete devastation of the world during the tribulation? The Romans in all their might could only conquer a section of the world but they could not destroy the world as man can today. There was no Devastation that took place. Nero only killed a few Christian but not the entire world. Note this scripture when thinking of this.
In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person (note he says persons not just Christians) will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God’s chosen ones.

Also Christ did not return to rule over the Romans for 1000 years. We do not see the emergance of two witness that is stated clearly in Revlation 11. There are so many holes in those interpretations that I just can’t understand why it is supported unless I am missing something very major. I personally hold true that when Christ returns there is not going to be any mistake of who is King of Kings or of what just took place. And I also believe that the world will be stressed so hard that everyone will learn a valuable lesson (the hard way) that Christ is king. Please convert me to being a Preterist!

[markedward]

Markdeward, you listed six. Any idea who the seventh and eighth were?

I see possiblities for who the seventh and eighth were...

Possibility A
The seventh could have been one of the three short-lived emperors following Nero. Galba, Otho and Vitellius all died in 69 AD (the Year of the Four Emperors). Galba is most-often cited, as he was the one to immediately follow Nero, but of the three he had the second-longest reign, and couldn't justly be considered as the one who would as "he must remain a short while." The third of these, Vitellius, had a rule slightly longer than Galba's, so he wouldn't make sense either. Otho, on the other hand, was the only of the three actually appointed as emperor by the senate, and had the shorted rule, so he would make the most logical choice of "he must remain a short while."

So following Nero we could ignore Galba and Vitellius since they never were actually appointed as emperors according to the laws. So Nero, Otho, then Vespasian as the eighth, who was reigning emperor during the time of Jerusalem's destruction. This could be considered likely if we take into account Daniel 7. Daniel says that there would be ten horns (ten kings) of the fourth beast (Rome fourth empire to rule over the Jews since their loss of independence to the Babylonians). Daniel then tells of an eleventh "little horn" coming up from among the ten, "humbling" three of the ten previous horns. This could correspond to the three emperors (Galba, Otho, Vitellius) being killed all in a single year's time, followed by Vespasian as the "eleventh" horn, but that would require adding in an additional ruler into the list of the first ten in order to make Vespasian number eleven.

Possibility B
Another possibility is this. If we keep in mind Daniel 7, then Julius Caesar on through Vespasian would make ten rulers of Rome. If we take into account that three of the first ten rulers are "removed" from the list in Daniel 7, then that would make Vespasian ruler number 7 in Revelation 17, making his son Titus as number 8. Titus was the commanding officer of the armies that would destroy Jerusalem, and would go on to become emperor following Vespasian. One apparent problem with this intepretation is that Vespasian was not "he must remain a short while." However, one possible interpretation of that video is an emphasis on the "must remain" part, which would imply that the seventh king would live longer than most people would think. To support that, the Greek wording for "short while" is actually used elsewhere in Scripture to refer to larger numberings (Acts 15:2 "great dissension," Acts 17:4 "great multitude," Acts 26:29 "short or long time," 1 Peter 1:6 "greatly rejoice," Revelation 12:12 "great wrath").

If we skip Galba, Otho and Vitellius altogether (these three emperors each died within a single year’s time of each other and never had any real over the Jews as the previous emperors and following emperors did), then Vespasian would be called this seventh king. And he surely did last longer than a number of people thought. Then following him would, of course, be Titus, who was responsible for the actual destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (i.e., apostate Israel, i.e., the Babylon the prostitute). This could also be supported depending on how one interprets the original Greek form of "he [the eighth] is of the seven." It could alternately be translated to English as "he [the eighth] is of the seventh," which could specifically mean that Titus, the "eighth" ruler (again, ignoring the three rulers that were "humbled") was the son of Vespasian, who was the "seventh" ruler.

So in my opinion:

1 - Julius Caesar
2 - Augustus
3 - Tiberius
4 - Caligula
5 - Claudius ("five are fallen")
6 - Nero ("one is")
X - Galba
X - Otho
X - Vitellius
7 - Vespasian ("one is not yet come, but when he does come, he must remain a 'short' while")
8 - Titus ("he is of the seven[th?]")

If Titus is the eleventh (Daniel 7)/eighth (Revelation 17) ruler, it would definitely fall in line with Jesus' words from His Olivet Discourse; Jerusalem was surrounded by Gentile armies (Luke 21:20) under the command of Titus, and the city and temple were destroyed (Luke 21:24, 21:5-6) in 70 AD, which was still within the lifetime of the disciples' generation as Jesus said (Luke 21:32).

Further supporting evidence (as I see it):

Revelation 9 - Take a good look at the "locusts" being described. In Revelation, we don't interpret the "beasts" of chapter 13 as literal beasts, so why should we automatically interpret these "locusts" as literal locusts? Most of the Revelation alludes to the OT, and this is no exception. The book of Joel describes "locusts" as coming upon Jerusalem, but it is made readily apparent that these "locusts" are simply metaphoric for armies marching on to the city, so it seems sensical to interpret the "locusts" of Revelation 13 the same way, as being metaphoric for armies. Their very descriptions are very similar depictions to the looks of the ancient Roman centurions. Gold crowns, hair like a womans, iron breastplates, face like a man's.

Revelation 9:14/16:12 - Revelation (which I believe "repeats" its visions a few times over, similar to how the book of Daniel "repeats" its visions) depicts two instances in which the Euphrates is opened up for armies (chapter 9) and kings (chapter 16). Incidentally, kingdoms beyond the Euphrates did send their armies to aide the Titus' Roman armies in their attack upon Jerusalem (the kingdoms of Antiochus IV Epiphanes of Commagene and Sohaemus of Emesa).

[vinsight4u8]

Seven kings of blasphemy. Look at the names on the heads in Rev. 13:1.

Read Psalm 74.

Nebuchadnezzar would be the first head, Antiochus of Epiphanes would be the second one. Hadrian would be number 7.

[Kahtar]

Thanks,markdward. Another question. You apparently view the seven heads and the 10 horns to be speaking of the same, rather than different entities? It always seemed to me that the 10 came out of the seventh head, arose during or immediately after the seventh head, thus making 18 kings in all.