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  • Is the Jewish role in God's plan finished?

    Another thread got me to thinking...

    Is the Jewish role in God's plan finished?

    Or will the Jewish people again factor into God's future plans?

    I'm not going to debate anything that gets posted here, because I'm just looking for opinions on the subject. Please post scripture to demonstrate your point; NT is fine but OT is better.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Fenris View Post
    Another thread got me to thinking...

    Is the Jewish role in God's plan finished?

    Or will the Jewish people again factor into God's future plans?

    I'm not going to debate anything that gets posted here, because I'm just looking for opinions on the subject. Please post scripture to demonstrate your point; NT is fine but OT is better.
    Hi Fenris,

    I'll start with an NT quote.

    Ro 11:1-5
    11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    NKJV

    Blessings to you, Fenris.
    Blessings,

    Road Warrior


    Proverbs 4:23
    23 Guard your heart above all else,
    for it determines the course of your life.

    Comment


    • #3
      Blessing to you too!

      It is nearly Sabbath here, so I shall be signing off until tomorrow night.

      Comment


      • #4
        Fenris,
        .. I'd be willing to bet that you can make me look ridicules in dealing with Old Testament or Jewish scripture. For that reason I'll just say that God promised never to abandon His chosen people for a thousand generations. That promise was made well before the Christ came to Earth and since we both know that our Heavely Fathers has no sin in Him we know that this promise will hold true.
        .. This is very conservative math and it always ticks people off when I go this direction but here are my thoughts on the math. At the time God made this promise a generation, to my understanding, was about 40 years. But I always like to as moderate as I can and most often use the just formerly current rate of 25 years. Using the lessor number that means that our LORD promised the Jew that He would never abandon them for 25,000 years. Personally, I like the 40,000 years much better but either way, I see that God meant that He would never turn His back on the Jewish people.
        .. There is a very popular, fast moving novel by a gentleman named Rosenthal, I believe, called The Ezekiel 38 Option. Anyone doing a serious study on Ezekiel 38 cannot but help to agree that this is very possibly exactly what will happen as he has described in his novel. Brother, and to me that term is special, God has and He always will have his remnant. God bless Israel and I believe she will have all her land returned in the next twenty years.

        Comment


        • #5
          Looking back we have Scripture and history to support that the Jews are God's chosen people. They received and kept diligently the Scriptures. They were given land by the miraculous works of God. The prophets were Jews, Jesus came to us through the Jews. The Scriptures say that He came to His own and His did not receive Him. There were consequences and they are very clearly explained in Scripture. God then turned to the gentile nations with the gospel of grace which the Jews rejected. The Scripture also says that the times of the gentiles will be fullfilled and God will restore His people. If people interpret the Scriptures literally, this is what we must come up with, if we interpret the Scriptures and spiritualize these things we get sometimes a wide variety of understandings, IMO. Jesus literally came to earth as the Scriptures said, all that happened to qualify Him as the Messiah that were prophetic were literally fulfilled, why not continue in that tradition? Some prophesy is sybolic, but will have a literal fullfilment.

          This is just my opinion, we must all decide and study to know the truth.
          Mark


          “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

          (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Fenris View Post
            Another thread got me to thinking...

            Is the Jewish role in God's plan finished?

            Or will the Jewish people again factor into God's future plans?

            I'm not going to debate anything that gets posted here, because I'm just looking for opinions on the subject. Please post scripture to demonstrate your point; NT is fine but OT is better.
            Here is one of my favorite OT sections on the issue - I'll not post the whole thing, as I am sure you are familiar with the dry bones story.

            Eze 37:21-28
            21 "Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

            24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."'"
            NKJV
            Blessings,

            Road Warrior


            Proverbs 4:23
            23 Guard your heart above all else,
            for it determines the course of your life.

            Comment


            • #7
              I am no OT commentator but i was under the impression that Christians are the new Israel and Gods people are any who accept the offer of Christs blood. In addition, a physical man made Israel as exists in the 'holy land' today is not something i would put much faith in. Christ said that noone would come to the father but by him yet many of you say that God wouldnt 'abandon' the Jews of today. Without Christ they wont enter Gods kingdom so how do you logically put non-messianic Jews in heaven without Christ?
              "Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline"
              -Flavius Vegetius Renatus

              "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

              Watch This! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA - Christian Artist Lecrae

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Revinius View Post
                I am no OT commentator but i was under the impression that Christians are the new Israel and Gods people are any who accept the offer of Christs blood. In addition, a physical man made Israel as exists in the 'holy land' today is not something i would put much faith in. Christ said that noone would come to the father but by him yet many of you say that God wouldnt 'abandon' the Jews of today. Without Christ they wont enter Gods kingdom so how do you logically put non-messianic Jews in heaven without Christ?
                .. That is such a dangerous pair of tricks to pull. First you spin my words and put lies into my mouth, that's not nice and it is not Christian. I said, without digging for the quote, that God has His remnant. To conclude as you have here is to spin what I said.
                .. And you couple that to the one popular teaching that makes God a liar. The Christian does not replace the Jew. The Christian is adopted into the family and for that to happen there must first and foremost, always,, be a family to adopt. And the other popular parable is that we are grafted into the vine. (Lights begin to flash wildly, rockets begin bursting in the air and sirens, thousands of them begin to wail.) To graft a branch into a vine there must be, no less than a living root. That root, to live, must have at least one shoot for the growth of leaves to send the life giving nourishment to the root from the leaves.
                .. Christians will never become some new Israel! It is a false teaching and is not based on good theology.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Revinius View Post
                  I am no OT commentator but i was under the impression that Christians are the new Israel and Gods people are any who accept the offer of Christs blood. In addition, a physical man made Israel as exists in the 'holy land' today is not something i would put much faith in. Christ said that noone would come to the father but by him yet many of you say that God wouldnt 'abandon' the Jews of today. Without Christ they wont enter Gods kingdom so how do you logically put non-messianic Jews in heaven without Christ?
                  I totally agree.
                  Look at the parallels of Zechariah, Ezekiel, & Revelation 22- The River of Life-The New Jerusalem.
                  Rev. 22:1
                  The River of Life

                  1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

                  Immediately following the judgment on Babylon(the harlot-Jerusalem AD70) the new creation comes down from heaven (Rev 21:1). In this new creation, there runs a beautiful, life-giving River. As with the Book of Life, the promise of the River of Life is inextricably linked with the fulfillment of Israel's Covenant promises. Failure to honor this dooms any hope of properly interpreting the Apocalypse.
                  Israel's hope is connected with the River of Life.
                  Isaiah 35:4, the River flows at the coming of the Lord in vengeance. In Luke 21:22, the Lord said He was coming in judgment against Jerusalem in vengeance.
                  In Zechariah 13:1
                  , the fountain for cleansing of Israel would be opened in the day when, "they will look on me whom they have pierced."(12:10) That would be repentance.
                  But Jesus also predicts His judgment against Jerusalem when He quotes from Zech. 12:10 in Matthew 24:30:
                  30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
                  In Zech.14:1-8, Jerusalem would be pillaged & captured in the Day of the Lord. The references to "in that day" absolutely limit the references to the opening of the River of Life (v.8), to the day of the siege of Jerusalem (AD70), & the Lord's deliverance of His people.
                  There has always been widespread belief that Zechariah 14 predicted the AD70 Parousia of Jesus. The early Christian writers applied this chapter to Jerusalem's demise. Eusebius, called the father of church history (no doubt a smart one!) says Zechariah 14 predicted, "the final siege of the people by the Romans, through which the whole Jewish race has become subject to their enemies." (Proof of the Gospel, Vol.I)

                  The righteous remnant had been chosen by 70AD.
                  Revelation 7:4-8
                  4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
                  5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
                  from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
                  from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
                  6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
                  from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
                  from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
                  7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
                  from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
                  from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
                  8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
                  from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
                  from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
                  Rev.14:1 we see them again in heaven bc they were resurrected when the power of the holy people was finally broken (Daniel 12)or 70AD.
                  1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

                  As I have said before, national Israel of today was a political movement.
                  All prophecy ended with AD70 regarding the "end of the age" & the end of things according to God's Plan of Salvation for mankind.

                  Jews were no longer the chosen people. The true Israel were the Jews who became Christians & the the Gentile Christians of the 1st century.
                  Thus when Christ came in 70AD, ALL Israel was saved, just like St.Paul said.
                  "And if any come to repentance, they will be grafted back in to the True Olive Tree (true Israel) of God.
                  It's the same for any unbeliever. Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, etc.. They become adopted "sons" through Christ.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Whatever opinions we each might have, the Bible speaks clearly to those who are willing to hear.

                    Romans 11
                    16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

                    19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

                    22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

                    24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

                    25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

                    26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
                    "The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
                    And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
                    27 For this is My covenant with them,
                    When I take away their sins."

                    28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

                    33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

                    34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?
                    Or who has become His counselor?"
                    35 'Or who has first given to Him
                    And it shall be repaid to him?"
                    36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
                    NKJV

                    It is unfortunate that Christians have been taught that they are the "new Israel" as if the entire history of the Jews was for nothing. The Jews have been God's people 4000 years longer than Christians have been.

                    There are many believing Jews today who do not recognize Jesus, but they are still worshipping God. It is very unbecoming of us to be scornful of our older brothers, IMO.
                    Blessings,

                    Road Warrior


                    Proverbs 4:23
                    23 Guard your heart above all else,
                    for it determines the course of your life.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I had been planning to post this message here, but have just now posted it elsewhere - so, two for the price of one!
                      ...
                      If we could read Ephesians without a filter, we would see that Paul was speaking of Jewish believers in Eph. 1:3-12. Then he addresses the Gentile believers starting in verse 13 - " In Him you also trusted ..."

                      Then when he says this:
                      Eph 2:6
                      6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

                      Eph 2:14
                      14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation NKJV

                      He is speaking of Jewish and Gentile believers together.

                      Eph 2:17-19
                      17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

                      Eph 2:19-20
                      19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

                      Eph 3:6-7
                      6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,
                      NKJV

                      ....

                      Somehow I think we will all be weeping when Jesus returns and we all see the truth of our own unbelief and disobedience ... (Zech 12:10)
                      Blessings,

                      Road Warrior


                      Proverbs 4:23
                      23 Guard your heart above all else,
                      for it determines the course of your life.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I do not believe Christians are any "new" Israel.
                        I said Christians are joined with those believing Jews to make THE TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD.
                        You do misinterpret Romans. When was Paul speaking those words? The apostle Paul was personally responsible for bringing in the "fullness of the Gentiles." To look centuries beyond Paul's ministry for the fullness of the Gentiles, & thus the salvation of Israel, is to deny Paul's emphatic words concerning his personal & pivotal role in God's Scheme. The "short work" of Romans 9:28 is defined by the ministry of Paul.

                        And in Romans , he says God committed them all to disobedience, so that He would have mercy on them all. Does that mean everyone will be saved? I think not. Because it is conditional it says, that they COME INTO REPENTANCE. And when was this written again? During "the short work."

                        Revelation 3:7:
                        These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David.

                        Jesus returned with angelic armies in the sky in AD70. Even an unbeliever, Josephus, records this.
                        You don't have to mourn. Everyone who has confessed Him should have peace in this life & the next.
                        If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us.

                        Praise God!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The OP'r does not intend to debate on this thread, nor do I. I have spoken my position, others are free to speak theirs.

                          Fenris, I think you will soon learn (if you didn't already realize it) that Christians are divided on this issue, as well.
                          Blessings,

                          Road Warrior


                          Proverbs 4:23
                          23 Guard your heart above all else,
                          for it determines the course of your life.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Read Hosea ch.1-3... it's very clear. God will never be done with Israel.
                            analyze. synthesize. repeat.

                            *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I just dont think its in line with the character of God to have people that do not worship him (his son) as being saved. Someones blood is not what saves them, Christs blood is what saves those who accept it as atonement. All i know is that Jesus is Lord and that he states that the only way to the father is through him, how can someone therefore default to the father purely because they are a blood descendent of Abraham. Gods people are those that love him and seek a relationship with him. I dont think that means that God isnt through with using those of the Jewish lineage to do his work but on the salvation issue i think the Christian position is pretty straight forward.

                              I had no intention of twisting you words th1bill, perhaps i read your statement wrongly, perhaps not. I was reading all the posts as a whole and replying to them all with my view.
                              "Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline"
                              -Flavius Vegetius Renatus

                              "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

                              Watch This! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA - Christian Artist Lecrae

                              Comment

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