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  • Lesbianism

    Hello, I'm Etain. I'm doing a project for a psychology class about the relationship between lesbianism and faith. I welcome all opinions, but might play devil's advocate (I am truly undecided about the issue). Any thoughts?

    Thanks.

  • #2
    It's condemned along with every other form of sin?
    It's no worse a sin than any of the others?
    It's our attitude towards sin that is the difference?

    Ergo, you can be a 'Lesbian Christian' in the sense that you know lesbianism is wrong and are working to get out of the life style.
    Doesn't mean, however, that you can't be a person of faith.

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't like labeling folks as "lesbian" or "homosexual". Those labels make it seem as if homosexuality is unavoidable and is a part of someone's nature rather than just a sinful choice born out of carnal and perverted desire. Homosexuality is an adjective that describes a sinful action . . . not a noun. Homosexuality is a sinful choice that folks make. It's not something they are born with that cannot be changed.
      "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

      -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Etain View Post
        Hello, I'm Etain. I'm doing a project for a psychology class about the relationship between lesbianism and faith. I welcome all opinions, but might play devil's advocate (I am truly undecided about the issue). Any thoughts?

        Thanks.
        Welcome to the CMB, Etain. It's an unsual 1st post, I'll give you that, but it is indeed rather relevant in terms of both Christian apologetics and evangelism.

        Let me preface my response by first admiting that sexual practice and orientation are very personal, controversial, and sensitive issues, and even more so as aspects of religious belief, Christian faith, Scriptural directives, and ones relationship with God, society, and a sexual partner are considered.

        Let me also point out that many of us are quite familiar on a very personal level with family members, friends, and/or fellow congregants who have waged a very heart-felt struggle with these issues. We know and love people for whom this is a very important concern and personal battle, regardless of how one views God's will and human faith as they bear on these issues.

        Having said that, let me affirm that love is of God, for God is love (1 John 4:7-8); and also affirm that sexual practice as an element of the human condition would seem constrained by God to our current human condition - that is, such relationships will not continue beyond our present life here (Luke 20:34-36). Some Christians throughout Christian history have even applied these constraints to here and now (insomuch as Jesus' demarks, "...those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage..." (v. 35, NASB). That is, there are Christians who would assert that any sexual practice is either unworthy or lesser of an obedience to a 'spiritual' following of the kingdom of Christ and eternal holiness. Equally, and especially among Jewish believers, abstaining from marriage and an interrelated fruitful multiplying (Ge. 1:28) is a slap in the face of God's initial commands for Adam and Eve and the human race which followed. So there are Bible believing Christians who take directly opposite views on the practice of sexual activity within God's design of marriage.

        I bring this to address homosexual activity in that such a willful bent in contrary to both of these diverse views on Scriptural teaching, and everything in between. What the Scriptures are very clear about in both the Old and New Testaments, despite modern efforts to allocate such concerns to some ancient and out-of-date cultural directives inapplicable to modern sexual practice, is that both homosexual activity and inclination are a sin before God (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Rom. 1:27; 1Cor. 6:9), and especially affecting ones own body (that is, a sin against ones own body - cf. 1Cor. 6:17-20).

        Sin is sin, as Xel'Naga has indicated, and sin brings death. It is an abhorrent rebellion, in every form it takes, against a holy God who neither sanctions any part of it nor will allow it to stand unpunished and without divine abrogation. When it comes to the particular sin of homosexuality there are some disturbing qualifiers difficult for any Christian to sort through. What makes someone male or female? How is such to be determined? What of God's dear creatures subject to a self-induced fallen and sin-stained world where imperfections sometimes make determinations and societal incorporations of gender a very difficult issue?

        Suffice it to say, homosexuality is a sin, but Scriptural determinations of such are not always as clear as we might hope. In any case, Xel'Naga is again correct, in that one's Christian faith and the directives of Holy Writ, while bearing on the issue of Lesbianism, are not so tied to it as to exclude the sinner from a hope in Christ of redemption.

        Comment


        • #5
          Lesbian sex is sin and God will judge all.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks, everyone, for the responses.

            For the sake of learning, I'm going to raise objections I have encountered in my debates with liberals. What I'm saying won't necessarily reflect what I believe. I just want to know what you would say to arguments I have had trouble with.

            The Biblical sex laws come from a time when there was no protection from STDs. Back then, sex put you in mortal peril, such that it was off-limits except to people trying to reproduce (not reproducing was worse than STDs). Sex for any other purpose (e.g. pleasure) was foolhardy. But today, we know about STDs and how to contain them. Rather than uphold laws blindly, it is time for us as a society to ask God how we should behave sexually in light of new knowledge. Nothing is prohibited without a reason, right?

            Part of me thinks my lesbian tendencies come from dysfunction in my upbringing. Yet not everyone who goes through far worse psychotrauma than mine becomes bisexual or homosexual. So I'm beginning to doubt that explanation and tending to accept my sexual orientation as a gift from God. A strange and frightening gift, but a gift nonetheless. I have asked Him repeatedly what I am to do with the gift. Am I to bring peace and understanding to a debate that is cutting obscene rifts between His children, who should be worrying about more dangerous things, like terrorism? Should I have a relationship with another woman and learn of His love by loving a human? Should I prove to the world that homosexuality can be overcome?

            I have asked Him repeatedly. The answer I have received is more and more zeal to find the truth.

            Comment


            • #7
              This subject has been looked at more in light of social influences toward it's development. Approach would entail studying the history of the culture and the influences which brought about such ideals.

              If your an American, a study of feminism and it's development and influence on society would benefit your understanding, not only of homosexuality, but also the lapse in sexual morality in general.

              A good book on the subject (in relation to American history on feminism) from a Christian source is "More Spirited Than Lions: An Orthodox Response to Feminism and a Practical Guide to the Spiritual Life for Women " by Sarah Cowie.
              Plenty of references, historical and Christian, and she addresses the ten myths most believe about feminism. I recommend it to everyone. But it is not what one would call a "light" read.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                I don't like labeling folks as "lesbian" or "homosexual". Those labels make it seem as if homosexuality is unavoidable and is a part of someone's nature rather than just a sinful choice born out of carnal and perverted desire. Homosexuality is an adjective that describes a sinful action . . . not a noun. Homosexuality is a sinful choice that folks make. It's not something they are born with that cannot be changed.
                Although it is wrong, I believe that it can be natural. But as long as you find faith and God, he can help you steer away from the sin.
                If homosexuality is natural in wild animals like cows and horses and such, then why couldn't it be natural in humans? Especially with all these chemicals that get pumped into our food that messed with our brain and hormones?
                I believe when you get to heaven that there will be former gay people there.
                Or I think even if you are gay and you've tried to change with the help of the lord but can't, you'll still be forgiven as long as you don't participate in any acts of homosexuality, like you stop yourself from thinking like that because you know it's wrong. Your still may be attracted to the same sex, but you just don't think about it and avoid doing anything with the same sex.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Etain View Post
                  The Biblical sex laws come from a time when there was no protection from STDs. Back then, sex put you in mortal peril, such that it was off-limits except to people trying to reproduce (not reproducing was worse than STDs). Sex for any other purpose (e.g. pleasure) was foolhardy. But today, we know about STDs and how to contain them. Rather than uphold laws blindly, it is time for us as a society to ask God how we should behave sexually in light of new knowledge. Nothing is prohibited without a reason, right?
                  I would disagree with the crux of this statement. There is no protection against STD's, as the horrifying statistics have shown--STD rates are rising, and continually rising. I also disagree with the assumption that sex was off limits. Even in the Bible we have examples of blatant prostitution!

                  The reason this sort of sex, along with pre-marital sex, is condemned is because that's not how God created this act, which is to be between one man and woman.

                  The Biblical sex laws have absolutely nothing to do with STD's, just consider how many wives the men of the Bible had (Saul, remember, had over 800). The Bible makes it very clear why there are sex laws--that's the way God designed the world.

                  Genesis 2:24
                  Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

                  Mark 10:7
                  Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife

                  1 Corinthians 6:16
                  Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh."

                  Ephesians 5:31
                  Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

                  1 Corinthians 7:10
                  To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband

                  In regards to homosexuality specifically:

                  1 Corinthians 6:9
                  Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality

                  Romans 1:24-27
                  Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reasonGod gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

                  Leviticus 18:22
                  You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

                  Originally posted by Etain View Post
                  Part of me thinks my lesbian tendencies come from dysfunction in my upbringing. Yet not everyone who goes through far worse psychotrauma than mine becomes bisexual or homosexual. So I'm beginning to doubt that explanation and tending to accept my sexual orientation as a gift from God. A strange and frightening gift, but a gift nonetheless. I have asked Him repeatedly what I am to do with the gift. Am I to bring peace and understanding to a debate that is cutting obscene rifts between His children, who should be worrying about more dangerous things, like terrorism? Should I have a relationship with another woman and learn of His love by loving a human? Should I prove to the world that homosexuality can be overcome?

                  I have asked Him repeatedly. The answer I have received is more and more zeal to find the truth.
                  Not everyone reacts to the same situations the same. We know that lesbianism isn't a gift from God, as God condemns that sort of relationship. All the same time realizing that sin is sin, and while homosexuality is stigmatized, it isn't worse than any other sin.

                  Originally posted by Raindrops_On_Roses View Post
                  If homosexuality is natural in wild animals like cows and horses and such, then why couldn't it be natural in humans?
                  This is what's referred to as the naturalistic fallacy.
                  Monkey's throw poop--does that mean it's alright for you to do the same?

                  It isn't 'natural'; though that does come off with a rather negative connotation.

                  Originally posted by Raindrops_On_Roses View Post
                  I believe when you get to heaven that there will be former gay people there.
                  Or I think even if you are gay and you've tried to change with the help of the lord but can't, you'll still be forgiven as long as you don't participate in any acts of homosexuality, like you stop yourself from thinking like that because you know it's wrong. Your still may be attracted to the same sex, but you just don't think about it and avoid doing anything with the same sex.
                  As I said, it's all in your attitude towards sin.

                  Originally posted by ToeSnip
                  Immoral...now first of all, you have no ability to say that it is not caused by genes because remember, the human genome project was only completed a few months ago and I bet you cannot give a single function of any genes. Now, having said that, that is the least of our worries here...I want to know why the Bible states it to be immoral. Explain please..
                  Read my post above. It's immoral, it's sinful.
                  Many things are immoral and sinful. Homosexuality is not a gene.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ToeSnip
                    Haha, oh man you guys make me laugh when you start quoting scripture. I asked for an explanation but still...it's just too much of a challenge isn't it? Oh and by the way, think about what you are saying little grasshopper...a psychopath ic condition which ends up in harm to anything else living is nothing like being homosexual. You're trying too hard, yet it's so simple to understand, so please don't take me to be some moron and think you've just pinned me by comparing the two simply because they are both a mental state. I can come out and say well you're christian and believe in Jesus as your saviour...what about the Hindus, Maryans, Aztecs, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Sikhs, Shintoists...the list goes on my friend. Oh and just out of curiosity, what do you think about them? Do you ever think that maybe you're wrong yourself?
                    Isaiah 5:21
                    Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
                    and clever in their own sight.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I know 2 people that are no longer homosexual. One, from a very young age was attracted to women. She is now a missionary to Africa and is free from that lifestyle.

                      You know TS, you could post over in CA and get some answers. Why pretend to be a Christian when you are not? At least, I gather from your words you are not.
                      Matt 9:13
                      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                      NASU

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hmm. Is it lulz time again?

                        My own personal opinion is that folks can be born with a tendency towards homosexuality. Science does mention that if one identical twin is gay, the the other is more likely to be gay even if raised separately.

                        You know, there are people on this board that were homosexual but are no longer. Oh, you can get your questions answered in christian answers as well.
                        Matt 9:13
                        13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                        NASU

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ToeSnip, you never came here looking to be shown contrary to your own beliefs. By the way, you missed this. . .

                          Originally posted by Xel'Naga
                          However, I must at the same time also state that you aren't 'born' gay, nor are you predisposed to gay behavior through genes. Environment, personal relationships, events in early life, etc all contribute to the choices people make later on in life. In short, it isn't a simply 'mental condition', as you state.
                          You said yourself that you can't prove what you believe. Well, it goes something like this.

                          You don't believe in God because you feel there is no reason to believe in Him. Just as none of us believe in unicorns, spaghetti monsters or vampires. The same logic holds true for homosexuality. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest people are 'born' gay, so why should we believe they are? On the contrary, homosexuality is brought on through environment, as I stated.

                          And, in going with Brother Mark, I've personally seen people out of homosexuality.

                          But, you're the 'smart' guy, so I won't argue with you.
                          Last edited by Studyin'2Show; Feb 1st 2008, 02:10 AM. Reason: removed quote from deleted post

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Brother Mark, it's rude to say that she's not a Christian!
                            Maybe she just has a different view! He/she (sorry I don't know which you are, I haven't checked) may not be traditional but it doesn't mean (s)he's pretending to be a Christian!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Raindrops_On_Roses View Post
                              Brother Mark, it's rude to say that she's not a Christian!
                              Maybe she just has a different view! He/she (sorry I don't know which you are, I haven't checked) may not be traditional but it doesn't mean (s)he's pretending to be a Christian!
                              Nah. He/she suggested it in her wording. And then owned up to it.

                              By the way, welcome to the forums.
                              Matt 9:13
                              13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                              NASU

                              Comment

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