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  • Originally posted by tgallison View Post
    Fenris Greetings
    Good morning.
    This is an old post and I apologize, but I was going through this thread and I would like to relate to you what Jesus the Christ said about this verse.
    No apologies needed. I'll do my best.


    So Jesus is saying he is the spiritual Temple made without hands, replacing the physical Temple. That the Temple is here now, and is made up of Jesus Christ, and those that are his.
    Right, I understand that this is a cardinal Christian belief. It does not fulfill the Jewish expectation of the prophecy, however. Jews believe that when God says the messiah will rebuild the temple, it means temple and not 'temple'.

    And if you say where is the sacrifice, here it is quoted in the following scripture.

    Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.?

    Hebrew 13:15 "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."
    Well, if one reads Ezekiel he prophesies that there will be specific animal sacrifices in the new temple.
    Isaiah 66:2-3 "For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a Dog's neck: he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered seine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed and idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations."
    I'm not sure where you're going with these verses...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JesusisGod View Post
      If your religion is complete from Moses, why bother with the prophets after him?
      Read what the prophets say. They don't create new laws or new ideas. They only tell the Jews to follow the laws that God gave.
      Aren't they part of Judaism, and don't they testify of Messiah?

      And even before Moses, isn't the coming of Messiah part of Jewish thought?
      Yep. See Deuteronomy chapter 30.


      Puttting the unfulfilles prophecies of Messiah and the execution of Jesus on hold for a moment, would you say from your knowledge of Torah and the writings of the NT that the (alleged) character of Jesus fits the Messiah
      Possibly... although many of his contemporaries quoted in the Mishna seem at least as holy.

      But there have been many saintly men throughout Jewish history. In fact, tradition has it that in every generation there is one man who is capable of being the messiah. None of those men actualized that potential because we as a people were not worthy.


      That's true, but in our conversation, I have demonstrated the ability to admit when you are right and I am wrong, thereby losing my prejudice.
      What an amusing thought.

      You're prejudiced because you were taught from an early age that Jesus was the messiah as prophesized in the OT. Now you are not capable of reading those holy books without seeing the 'logical' connection between them and Jesus.

      I'm prejudiced because I was taught from an early age that the Law is eternal and God's covenant with the Jews is unconditional and permanent. I was taught that the messiah will be a holy man who will lead the Jews back to Israel and cause us to follow the Law, rebuild the temple, and bring about world peace and universal knowledge of God. I read the NT and don't see any of that.

      So you see, my friend, neither of us is capable of being completely intellectually honest here. The best we can hope for is to understand each other's position, even if we can't agree with it.


      You don't know how wrong you are about this. I have much to learn about the God of the Jews and His Messiah.
      Ah, on this we are in agreement.

      And I can point to at least one instance where your bias led you to believe something about Jesus that isn't true.

      "You are not to repeat false rumors..." Ex.23:1
      Oh really? Do tell. When did I repeat false rumors?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Teke View Post
        I cite it as a "tradition", because it is a liturgical practice only Jews (an ethnic group) require.
        Well, it's in the bible. God told us to do it.
        Why is the bible unique to the Jews, because of Israels history. Other than that, I would say the Jew is where most others are with the ancient text, some is understood, some is not.
        I don't understand.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Fenris View Post
          Well, it's in the bible. God told us to do it.
          Granted historical text are subject to interpretation. I can only assume this means that Judaism follows a similar approach as Protestants and evangelicals of scripture only. The only problem with such an approach, alone, is it is without validity.
          I don't understand.
          That is what I have demonstrated.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Teke View Post
            Granted historical text are subject to interpretation.
            The procedure seems pretty straightforward to me.

            I can only assume this means that Judaism follows a similar approach as Protestants and evangelicals of scripture only. The only problem with such an approach, alone, is it is without validity.
            Uh, no, we have the Oral Law which is far longer and more detailed than the bible itself.
            That is what I have demonstrated.
            What a clarifying answer.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Fenris View Post
              The procedure seems pretty straightforward to me.

              "Seems"...........Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

              What seems to be and what is demonstrated as factual are two different things. The ashes of the red heifer may seem to be a means of purifying oneself to a more holier state, but that has not been proven by demonstration.

              Christianity demonstrates the validity of Jesus Christ and His teachings by living examples. Ashes nor a book is necessary to do so.

              Seeing is believing in the flesh.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Teke View Post
                "Seems"...........Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
                The procedure about the ashes doesn't 'seemeth right', it doesn't make sense at all. Still, the procedure is very straightforward.

                What seems to be and what is demonstrated as factual are two different things. The ashes of the red heifer may seem to be a means of purifying oneself to a more holier state, but that has not been proven by demonstration.
                that's true, because purity and impurity are metaphysical concepts. They can't be perceived at all.

                Christianity demonstrates the validity of Jesus Christ and His teachings by living examples. Ashes nor a book is necessary to do so.
                That's a point of faith, not fact.
                Seeing is believing in the flesh.
                I haven't seen Jesus or ritual impurity.

                Comment


                • Quote Teke:
                  Christianity demonstrates the validity of Jesus Christ and His teachings by living examples. Ashes nor a book is necessary to do so.

                  Quote Fenris:
                  That's a point of faith, not fact.
                  ________________________________________

                  No, it's a fact.

                  Comparison wise.

                  I have seen those who have left all and followed Christ.
                  I have never seen those purified by red heifer ashes.

                  Which brings the Jew back to the book only. Be that scripture (OT) or oral tradition written down. These things are not living breathing witnesses.

                  Faith is active and alive. Without that fact, it is pointless.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Teke View Post
                    No, it's a fact.

                    Comparison wise.

                    I have seen those who have left all and followed Christ.
                    I have never seen those purified by red heifer ashes.
                    That's because no one has been purified by those ashes for 1600 years. But so what? It's not a vital part of Judaism today.

                    Which brings the Jew back to the book only. Be that scripture (OT) or oral tradition written down. These things are not living breathing witnesses.
                    The living, breathing witnesses are those who came before us, carrying down the oral tradition of the revelation at Sinai.
                    Faith is active and alive. Without that fact, it is pointless.
                    Jew also have faith. Millions have been slaughtered through the centuries for not forsaking it.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                      That's because no one has been purified by those ashes for 1600 years. But so what? It's not a vital part of Judaism today.
                      In essence this means it has no ontological reality.

                      Jew also have faith. Millions have been slaughtered through the centuries for not forsaking it.
                      You never cease to call to remembrance the slaughter of Jews at some point of history. How does that strengthen the case for Judaism? There are many of other nations who have been slaughtered throughout history. As a matter of fact, Christians have never stopped being slaughtered for their faith to this present day. But that doesn't seem to matter to Jews.

                      Is historical slaughter of people, in this case specifically Jews, a guideline in Judaism to strengthen faith.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Teke View Post
                        In essence this means it has no ontological reality.
                        I don't know what that means.

                        You never cease to call to remembrance the slaughter of Jews at some point of history. How does that strengthen the case for Judaism?
                        I use it as an example of faith, since you seem to feel that Jews don't have any.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                          I don't know what that means.
                          Ontology is "being".
                          I use it as an example of faith, since you seem to feel that Jews don't have any.
                          Oh, I believe God has given everyone a measure of faith. What they choose to put it in differs.

                          For Christians, our Lord in His wisdom, gave us a Counselor known as the Holy Spirit (there is no contradiction of the laws of Torah BTW). When the Church first began, enlightenment by the Holy Spirit could be given by an elder such as the Apostles. This kind of guidance is not given to our times, nor are we worthy of such.

                          But the counsel of the Holy Spirit is given to us. ie. life by counsel
                          This must be tested by experience. Experience by being is ontological.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Teke View Post
                            Ontology is "being".
                            Well, it has no 'being' now but it it will in the future. As will animal sacrifice.


                            Oh, I believe God has given everyone a measure of faith. What they choose to put it in differs.
                            I don't believe anyone chooses their faith. That's why God doesn't judge us on faith, but on action.

                            Comment


                            • Hi Fenris.
                              None of those men actualized that potential because we as a people were not worthy.
                              What does this mean? Do you believe Messiah will not come until Jews attain some type of worthiness that will allow his coming?

                              I was taught that the messiah will be a holy man who will lead the Jews back to Israel
                              Do you believe it is necessary for Messiah to lead Jews back or Israel, or do you think Jews will return on their own?

                              Oh really? Do tell. When did I repeat false rumors?
                              When I said Jesus never changed Torah and you responded,
                              "Sure Jesus did. He took 613 commandments and reduced it to 2. Major major change." Jesus never said there were only two commandments. In fact, He said,

                              "Until Heaven and earth pass, not one iota will perish from the law until all has been fulfilled. Therefore, anyone who breaks one of these least commandments and teaches men so will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever does and teaches them will be called great..." Mt.5:18-19

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JesusisGod View Post
                                Hi Fenris.
                                Morning.

                                What does this mean? Do you believe Messiah will not come until Jews attain some type of worthiness that will allow his coming?
                                That is what the prophets said, yes.

                                Do you believe it is necessary for Messiah to lead Jews back or Israel, or do you think Jews will return on their own?
                                Well, Jews are returning to Israel even today. But since most of the world doesn't seem to accept Israel's right to exist, I would say that we aren't there yet.
                                When I said Jesus never changed Torah and you responded,
                                "Sure Jesus did. He took 613 commandments and reduced it to 2. Major major change." Jesus never said there were only two commandments. In fact, He said,

                                "Until Heaven and earth pass, not one iota will perish from the law until all has been fulfilled. Therefore, anyone who breaks one of these least commandments and teaches men so will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven, but whoever does and teaches them will be called great..." Mt.5:18-19
                                Then why is it that Christians do not keep kosher, for example?

                                Comment

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