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  • Question about sins in the OT

    someone in a dif thread said:

    If you look back through the Hebrew Scripture, you'll find that there are no sacrifices described for intentional sins. They all say something like, If a man sins unintentionally...and so on.
    Any comments?
    1Peter 3:15
    (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

  • #2
    How could we describe intentional and unintentional? I know that

    (James 4:17) Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
    but Jesus was (and is) the sacrifice for all sin. I take that as ALL SIN!
    Not saying we should chose to live in sin. I am sure we could show with many verses just about David where God forgave him of many sins that when David did them he knew it was wrong.

    (1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Buck shot View Post
      How could we describe intentional and unintentional? I know that

      (James 4:17) Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
      but Jesus was (and is) the sacrifice for all sin. I take that as ALL SIN!
      Not saying we should chose to live in sin. I am sure we could show with many verses just about David where God forgave him of many sins that when David did them he knew it was wrong.

      (1 John 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
      I meant more along the lines of OT scripture. Were "intentional sins" not forgiven? Aren't intentional sins the majority of the sins in the world? How often do we accidentally or unintentionally sin??
      1Peter 3:15
      (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Naphal View Post
        How often do we accidentally or unintentionally sin??
        Well, until a person reads the Bible and is "informed" what is and isn't sinful... can then determine what is intentional sin vs. unintentional sin.

        Scripture clearly stipulates what is sinful and once this is understood and a person who has put faith in Christ and doesn't offer these sins up to the Lord and continues to do the actions that the Bible has clearly laid out as sin... are living in sin.

        Ya just have to separate our born sin vs. our freewilled sin. I can't offer up Adams and Eve's sin to God but I can offer up any sin that "I" willfully do as I live.

        Anyone being sinful and offering it up to God for forgiveness and then at that time forward doing their utmost "not" to repeat the sin... are being repentant.

        By asking for forgiveness and willfully continuing the sinful act or nature... why ask for forgiveness if you don't intend to stop the sinful act?
        Slug1--out

        ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Slug1 View Post
          Well, until a person reads the Bible and is "informed" what is and isn't sinful... can then determine what is intentional sin vs. unintentional sin.
          Lets narrow this down to Christians that know the law and know right from wrong. We aren't talking about those without the law where no sin exists.



          Scripture clearly stipulates what is sinful and once this is understood and a person who has put faith in Christ and doesn't offer these sins up to the Lord and continues to do the actions that the Bible has clearly laid out as sin... are living in sin.
          And what if they do "offer them up"?


          Ya just have to separate our born sin vs. our freewilled sin. I can't offer up Adams and Eve's sin to God but I can offer up any sin that "I" willfully do as I live.
          This is what I have been saying. This is the process of repenting after a sin. Any time you commit this or another sin as a Christian you should repent and try to avoid it, but no condemnation comes up those that re-commit the sin.


          Anyone being sinful and offering it up to God for forgiveness and then at that time forward doing their utmost "not" to repeat the sin... are being repentant.
          That's not the only example of repentance. That's one of the most ideal situations which few obtain.


          By asking for forgiveness and willfully continuing the sinful act or nature... why ask for forgiveness if you don't intend to stop the sinful act?
          Because your heart desires to be made clean by Christ of course. This is the differences between a Christian that sins and a non-Christian that sins!
          1Peter 3:15
          (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

          Comment


          • #6
            It is stated in Lev.4:2,22,27; 5:15,18; 22:14; Num.15:24-28; 35:11,15; Dt.4:42; 19:4; Jos.20:3,9; Unintentional sins.

            Therefore it seems intentional sins don't have forgiveness in the Jewish system. The Jews were raised knowing their scriptures and knowing what God expected from them.

            Now does this understanding gives insight to Pharisaical behavior as to why they identified sinners and had nothing to do with them, because they sinned purposely and if you sinned purposely then you were lost, for there was no sacrifice for your disobedience.

            But along comes Jesus from Galilee and He is forgiving people of all sins? Man they got excited because now they had their first chance to get back with God because there was no sacrifice for intentional sins.

            Does this reasoning make sense, I would like to hear discussion on this.

            RJ

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RJ Mac View Post
              Therefore it seems intentional sins don't have forgiveness in the Jewish system. The Jews were raised knowing their scriptures and knowing what God expected from them.
              No.


              Leviticus 5:1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.
              Leviticus 5:2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
              Leviticus 5:3 Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty.
              Leviticus 5:4 Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these.
              Leviticus 5:5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:
              Leviticus 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

              This is one of many examples of intentional sins being dealt with according to the regulations of the OT.
              1Peter 3:15
              (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

              Comment


              • #8
                Was David's sins unintentional?

                Was Moses sins unintentional?

                Was Abrahams sins unintentional?

                What about most of Israel, who often committed several intentional sins. Did not God may times, say that if they turned back to Him, that He would forgive them?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Naphal View Post
                  someone in a dif thread said:



                  Any comments?
                  There were sin offerings for unintentional sins. It would be like a child telling a lie, but that child doesn't know what a lie is? Same thing.

                  "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering." Leviticus 4:1-3

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by partaker of Christ View Post
                    Was David's sins unintentional?

                    Was Moses sins unintentional?

                    Was Abrahams sins unintentional?

                    What about most of Israel, who often committed several intentional sins. Did not God may times, say that if they turned back to Him, that He would forgive them?
                    You bring an interesting set of points to a thread which is arguing over something irrelevant. . . . (But I like your points!)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sold Out View Post
                      There were sin offerings for unintentional sins. It would be like a child telling a lie, but that child doesn't know what a lie is? Same thing.

                      "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering." Leviticus 4:1-3
                      Yes but the claim is that intentional sins were unforgiveable. That the sin offerings and forgiveness was only for unintentional sins.
                      1Peter 3:15
                      (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Naphal View Post
                        Yes but the claim is that intentional sins were unforgiveable. That the sin offerings and forgiveness was only for unintentional sins.
                        OH...sorry I misunderstood the question. Leviticus ch. 5 tells us about the sacrifice for the trespass offering. There were two offerings to deal with sin:

                        1. Sin offering - unintentional
                        2. Trespass offering - intentional

                        Here are some notes from my study bible on the five offerings:

                        a. Note - The voluntary offerings (See – Lev 22:17-21) were offered to God out of appreciation for what the LORD (i.e., CHRIST) had done for them when He saved them out of Egypt (See - Exo 13:21,22). The burnt offering pictured CHRIST in all His perfections (i.e., without blemish – vss 3,10) dedicating Himself voluntarily (See - Jn 10:17,18) and entirely to God (i.e., burn all – vs 9) in our place (See – II Cor 5:21). Just as CHRIST voluntarily choose to bring us Christianity, so we who have become Christians through faith in CHRIST must voluntarily choose to live it (See - II Cor 4:16 & Rom 12:1,2)! Of the five offerings, three were voluntary (the burnt, meal, and peace) and two were mandatory (the sin and trespass) Whereas the burnt, meal, and peace offerings were used to approach God for the purpose of maintaining daily fellowship, the sin and trespass offerings were used to approach God for the purpose of restoring fellowship that had been broken (See - I Jn 1:9).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Nephal - Lev.5:1ff all these he mentions are unintentional sins, are they not? "if he is unaware". Could you show with scriptures what the sacrifice for intentional sin is.

                          Partaker - David's sin with Bathsheba and killing Uriah was intentional and his life was in ruin because of it. Not until Nathan showed up was he forgiven by God, not by a sacrifice. 2Sam.12:13;
                          Moses sins of striking the stone was unintentional, done in anger.
                          Abraham did not have the Law, to know the difference.
                          The sins Israel committed had no forgiveness therefore God said I will forgive if you turn. God gave them an option that was not made available in the sacrificial system.

                          I am not claiming there is no sacrifice for intentional sins, I am asking if there is and where is it? For if there isn't then what Jesus did in forgiving sins was even a greater revelation than I originally thought for the Jews of His day.

                          RJ

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RJ Mac View Post

                            I am not claiming there is no sacrifice for intentional sins, I am asking if there is and where is it? For if there isn't then what Jesus did in forgiving sins was even a greater revelation than I originally thought for the Jews of His day.

                            RJ

                            I have already posted one example that took me 30 secs to locate. I assume there are a great many more.
                            1Peter 3:15
                            (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              God never wanted sacrifices for sin and He told His people repeatedly.

                              Jeremiah 7:22-23
                              22"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
                              23"But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'

                              Psalm 40:6
                              6Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
                              My ears You have opened;
                              Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required
                              .

                              Psalm 51:15-17
                              15 O Lord, open my lips,
                              That my mouth may declare Your praise.
                              16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
                              You are not pleased with burnt offering
                              .
                              17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
                              A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

                              Hebrews 10:8
                              8After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them"


                              Hosea 6:6
                              What I want is mercy, not sacrifice.

                              Isaiah 1:11-16
                              To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me?" sayeth the Lord. "I am full
                              of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs or of he-goats...bring no more vain oblations.... Your new moon and your appointed feasts my soul hateth;...and when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.

                              Proverbs 21:3
                              Deeds of compassion and kindness toward all creation are of greater significance to God than sacrifices: "To do charity and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice".

                              God didn't institute the practice of sacrificial offerings. It is no where in the Ten Commandments and the first time its mentioned in Leviticus it is mentioned as an optional practice.

                              When God chose Israel the people were already heavily influenced by neighboring, idolatrous nations and as such worshiping via sacrifices was how they (as well as almost every nation on earth) worshiped deity. God tolerated the sacrifices and essentially told His people, "Look, I don't want your sacrifices but if you're going to do it, then do it like this." That distinguished the worship to Yahweh vs. pagan gods.

                              The sacrifices were for man to feel less guilty about the committed sin/wrong-doing. The OT sacrifices never removed sin - they just made man feel better about it and Israel's sacrifices were often with no love or mercy attached which is what God wanted.

                              So the sacrifices were to appease man, not God. Like Adam, when we sin, the first thing we want to do is retreat from God and hide. We dont feel worthy to be in His presence. God sent His Son to deal with our sin problem once and for all. Thats how much He loves and wants us in relationship with Him.

                              Sin happens. Repent, God still loves you, move on quickly. Thats what Hes always wanted and what Israel could never give Him. The more we dwell on the sin that the Father has already forgiven, the more we empower sin. Sin really is just a nuisance and not worth more than a nanosecond of our lives and time.

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