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  • The Messiah in the Tenakh

    This thread is started for the purpose of discussing the Messiah as seen in the Tenakh (Old Testament), from the Christian perspective and the Jewish perspective. It is primarily a discussion between Fenris and myself. However, others can provide their input as well.
    But I want it clear from the beginning that this is to be a peaceful discussion, not an argument, nor an attempt to sway anyone's beliefs, nor an opportunity to accuse and judge anyone, but rather a simple laying out of our different views for the sake of understanding each other's views.
    With that out of the way, let's begin.

    Genesis is always a good place for beginnings, so let's start there.

    In Genesis 1, chapter 1, verse 1, there are seven words, in Hebrew.
    They are:
    Gen 1:1 בראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃
    Transliterated, they are
    B'rayshiyth bara Elohiym et ha'shamayim v'et ha'eretz.
    This verse sets up, at the very outset of God's revelation to man, a divine pattern, a pattern that is carried out throughout the rest of scripture. This pattern can be seen again in the seven days of creation, the seven patriarchs, the seven festivals of the Lord, the seven furnishings in the tabernacle, seven events in the Exodus, and many others, right down to the seven millennium of man upon the earth.
    That pattern is, in my mind, best illustrated pictographically in the menorah, the seven branched lamp-stand in the tabernacle.
    Seven branches, the center of which is a bit higher than the others.
    From the Christian perspective, the Messiah was called the 'beginning and the end', the 'first and the last', the 'alpha and omega', or in Hebrew, the 'alef and the tet', the first and the last letters of the alef beyt, the Hebrew alphabet.
    In the center word in that first verse, we have the alef and tet, forming an unpronounced word 'et'.
    Thus, we have the 'first and the last' presented to us in the same position as that center shaft of the menorah.
    In keeping with the pattern, in the fourth day of creation, the sun and moon are created, and set in the heaven to 'rule' the day and the night, to establish the (set)times and seasons, the days and years.
    Mal'akhi (Malachi) 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    The 'sun of righteousness' in this verse, according to some ancient rabbis, spoke of the Messiah, whom they expected to come sometime during the 'fourth day', or fourth millennium. From the Christian perspective, He did indeed come on the fourth day, right at the very end of it, bringing with Him that healing in his wings, as seen in
    Matthew 9:20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind [him], and touched the hem of his garment:
    Matthew 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.
    That center position is also seen in the fourth furnishing in the tabernacle, that being the lamp-stand. The lamp-stand is what provided light within the Holy Place in the tabernacle.
    From the Christian perspective, the Messiah is 'the light of the world', and the 'Word of God', the Word that lightens our path.
    John 1:1-5
    (1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    (2) The same was in the beginning with God.
    (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    (4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    (5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    Tehillim (Psalms) 119:105 NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

    There is more, of course, but I don't want to detract too much from that center word, so I'll leave it at that. We have a million rabbit-trails we could go down already.
    We can go further into the letters themselves if you desire.

  • #2
    OK, I see some interesting things right off the bat.

    Jews and Christians read through the bible in a much different manner. The bible was given to everyone, but that doesn't mean that just anyone can sit down and come up with an analysis of the bible and be correct. Someone has to be the authority who determines what is and isn't within the bounds of interpretation on biblical text. In Christianity, I see people all the time who sit down and reason out some verses, come up with the conclusion that it points to Jesus, and are satisfied with the results. The problem with that (from the Jewish perspective) is that said interpretation is based on no precedent; it's just something a single individual came up with, based on their pre-existing religious beliefs. It's sort of like saying "I know this verse refers to Jesus because I believe it does", which is circular logic. Not that it's wrong, of course. But it won't be convincing for someone who believes otherwise.

    OK, so on to the content of your post itself.
    In Genesis 1, chapter 1, verse 1, there are seven words, in Hebrew.
    Right, seven words. Seven is a powerful number for many reasons. Is it significant in this verse? I don't know. There are many questions one can ask about this verse. Why does it start with the second letter of the alphabet? Why doesn't the bible start at Exodus 12:2, the first of God's commandments to the Jewish people? Why does God spend 6 days creating the universe? Couldn't He have done it all in a single instance?

    From the Christian perspective, the Messiah was called the 'beginning and the end', the 'first and the last', the 'alpha and omega', or in Hebrew, the 'alef and the tet', the first and the last letters of the alef beyt, the Hebrew alphabet.
    In the center word in that first verse, we have the alef and tet, forming an unpronounced word 'et'.
    Ok , a couple of points here. First of all, basing theology on the location of a word in it's position of a verse is tenuous at best. This is one of those cases I mentioned above: Your belief colors your understanding of the verse. Secondly, the Hebrew word 'et' is all over the bible. If it refers to God here, does it refer to God in other verses as well?


    Mal'akhi (Malachi) 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

    Now here we come to another interesting way that Christians read the bible differently from Jews: Context. Christians are very apt to take a single verse and use it for a proof outside of the verses (or sometimes chapters) around it. Again, this doesn't make it wrong but it's not something that Jews do. Now, Malachi is the last prophet in the Tanach and this chapter is messianic- a Jew just wouldn't see how it refers to Jesus if the whole chapter is read as a unit. The verse "
    Remember ye the law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, even statutes and ordinances." in particular is interesting in that regard.

    Tehillim (Psalms) 119:105 NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

    Here again we have the issue of context. psalms 119 starts with the verses "
    1. Praiseworthy are those whose way is perfect, who walk with the law of the Lord.
    2. Praiseworthy are those who keep His testimonies; who seek Him wholeheartedly."

    and contains verses like

    10. With all my heart I searched for You; do not cause me to stray from Your commandments.


    12. Blessed are You, O Lord; teach me Your statutes.

    16. With Your statutes I shall occupy myself

    33. Instruct me, O Lord, [in] the way of Your statutes, and I shall keep it at every step.


    35. Lead me in the path of Your commandments for I desired it.
    44. And I shall keep Your Torah constantly, forever and ever.

    47. And I shall engage in Your commandments, which I love.

    etc etc.

    The rabbis always understood Psalm 119 as referring to the Jewish love of the Torah and it's the Laws. In that context, the meaning of verse 105 becomes quite clear: "Your words are a lamp for my foot, and light for my path" obviously refers to the words in the bible, which teach us how to go down the right path.




    Our perception of the bible is quite different. This is proving to be a most interesting discussion.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Fenris View Post
      Our perception of the bible is quite different. This is proving to be a most interesting discussion.
      Good. That really is what I was hoping, was to see the differences in our perceptions, or perspectives.
      As to basing a doctrine upon two letters located in a single verse, no, I would not recommend such either, but you are correct that my perspective is colored, because of course, the Christian perspective, as a whole, is based upon what is presented in the New Testament, and those things we 'see' in the OT are derived, to some extent, from there.
      For instance, in the writings of Luke, we read:
      Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
      and so we learn from this that the Torah, Nevi'im and K'tuvim contain things that speak of the Messiah, and which point to Yahshua as being that Messiah.
      And so one searches through the scriptures for those things. Some of course, are brought out directly by the writers of the NT. Matthew was good about that, and the writer of Hebrews.

      Comment


      • #4
        In addressing your previous post, just a few comments:
        "Jews and Christians read through the bible in a much different manner"
        This is true. For the most part, we tend to view it from a linear Greek mindset. It is difficult for us, who have been raised up that way to change our perceptions. One reason for this discussion.
        "Right, seven words. Seven is a powerful number for many reasons. Is it significant in this verse? I don't know. There are many questions one can ask about this verse. Why does it start with the second letter of the alphabet? Why doesn't the bible start at Exodus 12:2, the first of God's commandments to the Jewish people? Why does God spend 6 days creating the universe? Couldn't He have done it all in a single instance?"
        I would enjoy discussing all these things you mentioned. I'll address only the last one briefly, because it applies to our topic to a degree. It is my understanding first that of course He could have created the whole thing in an instant, and had no need for 'seven days' to do it in. But He did do it that way, and, from my experience and understanding, He never does something 'offhand'. All He does is with purpose, and quite often more than one purpose.
        In the case of the seven days, I believe He did it that way specifically to establish a divine pattern, as previously mentioned, for our teaching and understanding. He clearly established a set pattern in the feasts, and in the construction of the tabernacle and temple, and all their service. All was done for our learning and instruction in righteousness.
        "If it refers to God here, does it refer to God in other verses as well? "
        It very well may, but I can't provide you with an instance at this time. I'm not sure that it is necessary for it to always refer to God, however.
        Have you spent any time studying the ancient Hebrew characters? Each one was a pictograph, and had meaning, and the name of each one corresponded to that meaning.
        It is my firm conviction that each and every letter, every jot and tittle, has meaning, and meaning deeper than simply the literal, surface understanding of what is written.
        Just to provide an example, let's take a quick peek at the letter alef.
        To quote the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon:
        The original pictograph for this letter is a picture of an ox head - a representing strength and power from the work performed by the animal. This pictograph also represents a chief or other leader. When two oxen are yoked together for pulling a wagon or plow, one is the older and more experienced one who leads the other. Within the clan, tribe or family the chief or father is seen as the elder who is yoked to the others as the leader and teacher.
        The Modern name for this letter is aleph (pla) and corresponds to the Greek name alpha and the Arabic name aleph. The various meanings of this root are oxen, yoke and learn. Each of these meanings is related to the meanings of the pictograph a. The root pla is an adopted root from the parent root la (AL) meaning, strength, power and chief and is the probable original name of the pictograph a.

        The l is a shepherd staff and represents authority as well as a yoke (see Lam below). Combined these two pictographs mean “strong authority”. The chief or father is the “strong authority”. The la can also be understood as the “ox in the yoke”. Many Near Eastern cultures worshipped the god la / AL, most commonly pronounced as “el” and depicted as a bull in carvings and statues. Israel chose the form of a calf (young bull) as an image of God at Mount Sinai showing their association between the word la and the ox or bull. The word la is also commonly used in the Hebrew Bible for God or any god.
        The concept of the ox and the shepherd staff in the word la has been carried over into modern times as the scepter and crown of a monarch, the leader of a nation. These modern items are representative of the shepherd staff, an ancient sign of authority, and the horns of the ox, an ancient sign of strength.
        In Modern Hebrew this letter is silent but was originally used as the vowel “a” as well as a glottal stop. The Greek letter “alpha” derived from the “aleph” is also used for the “a” sound.
        The Early Semitic pictograph a was simplified to A and a in the Middle Hebrew script and continued to evolve into the a in the Late Hebrew script. The Modern Hebrew letter a developed out of the Late Semitic. The Middle Semitic was adopted by the Greeks to be the letter “A” and carried over into the Roman “A”. The Middle Semitic script became the number “1” we use today.
        Now, I am not sharp enough to go through the Tanach letter by letter and derive all the meaning presented there. However, I am sharp enough to see the possibility, and perhaps probability, that such meaning exists. So whether or not the alef tet speaks directly of God each time, I don't know, but I am quite sure it does speak of something, if the Holy Spirit so chooses to reveal it.
        "Now, Malachi is the last prophet in the Tanach and this chapter is messianic- a Jew just wouldn't see how it refers to Jesus if the whole chapter is read as a unit."
        As I alluded to in my previous post, the Jews did in fact believe it referred to the Messiah to come. But let me see if I can locate my source on that for you.
        Edit:
        Okay, in the Midrash Exodus Rabbah, it says:
        "with Moses, too, did I make this condition concerning them; as it says, 'If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor' (Ex. 22,24);but if you transgress these commands, I will hand over two pledges, as it says, 'If thou at all take thy neighbour's garment to pledge - habol tahbol' (ib.25).' Moses asked: 'Shall they remain in pledge for ever?' God replied: 'No, only Until the sun appears' (ib.) that is, till the coming of the Messiah; for it says, 'But unto you that fear My name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings (Mal. 3,20).'

        "The rabbis always understood Psalm 119 as referring to the Jewish love of the Torah and it's the Laws. In that context, the meaning of verse 105 becomes quite clear: "Your words are a lamp for my foot, and light for my path" obviously refers to the words in the bible, which teach us how to go down the right path. "
        We are not so far apart on this really, for Christians also understand it to be speaking of the words in the Bible, and those words truly are a lamp unto our feet. The difference of course is that we believe that Jesus, whom we believe to be the Messiah, was that very Word made flesh, Who dwelt among us.
        You must understand, of course, that within Christiandom, there are many varied beliefs, and so when I refer to Christians, it must be with the understanding that probably not all will agree with what I am saying in every instance. Not so different from Jews, who also have different sects and beliefs. A casual reading of nearly any portion of the Talmud exemplifies that fact.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
          For instance, in the writings of Luke, we read:
          Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
          Well, this basically proves my point that the facts concerning Jesus that you find in the Tanach are actually based on faith.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
            In addressing your previous post, just a few comments:
            This is true. For the most part, we tend to view it from a linear Greek mindset. It is difficult for us, who have been raised up that way to change our perceptions. One reason for this discussion.

            Well, one of the reasons I'm here is to see how Christians think. So it's mutually beneficial.

            I would enjoy discussing all these things you mentioned. I'll address only the last one briefly, because it applies to our topic to a degree. It is my understanding first that of course He could have created the whole thing in an instant, and had no need for 'seven days' to do it in. But He did do it that way, and, from my experience and understanding, He never does something 'offhand'. All He does is with purpose, and quite often more than one purpose.
            In the case of the seven days, I believe He did it that way specifically to establish a divine pattern, as previously mentioned, for our teaching and understanding. He clearly established a set pattern in the feasts, and in the construction of the tabernacle and temple, and all their service. All was done for our learning and instruction in righteousness.
            Right. Well again, this goes back to finding hints of Jesus based on belief that they are there.
            It very well may, but I can't provide you with an instance at this time. I'm not sure that it is necessary for it to always refer to God, however.
            Have you spent any time studying the ancient Hebrew characters? Each one was a pictograph, and had meaning, and the name of each one corresponded to that meaning.
            It is my firm conviction that each and every letter, every jot and tittle, has meaning, and meaning deeper than simply the literal, surface understanding of what is written.
            I am in agreement with you here. But that deeper meaning may not be what you think it is.

            An interesting aside: On a Torah scroll some letters have 'crowns' on them. The story goes that Moses asked God what they were for. God told Moses that in the distant future a rabbi named Akiva would glean many laws from the placement of those crowns.

            Just to provide an example, let's take a quick peek at the letter alef.
            To quote the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon:
            OK, it's an interesting read. But I would never try to glean theology from it.
            Now, I am not sharp enough to go through the Tanach letter by letter and derive all the meaning presented there. However, I am sharp enough to see the possibility, and perhaps probability, that such meaning exists. So whether or not the alef tet speaks directly of God each time, I don't know, but I am quite sure it does speak of something, if the Holy Spirit so chooses to reveal it.
            Again, true. But it may not mean what you think. For example, in the Ten Commandments we have the phrase 'Honor your father and your mother'. In Hebrew 'Kabed et avicha v'et Imecha'. The second instance of 'et' (v'et, in this sentence) is grammatically superfluous. The rabbis deduced from it that one most not only honor their parents, but also their older siblings who do, after all, all have a parenting role.

            As I alluded to in my previous post, the Jews did in fact believe it referred to the Messiah to come. But let me see if I can locate my source on that for you.
            Edit:
            Okay, in the Midrash Exodus Rabbah, it says:
            Right, we won't disagree here because it seems pretty obviously messianic.
            We are not so far apart on this really, for Christians also understand it to be speaking of the words in the Bible, and those words truly are a lamp unto our feet. The difference of course is that we believe that Jesus, whom we believe to be the Messiah, was that very Word made flesh, Who dwelt among us.
            I see.

            I'll make an interesting observation. The Jewish understanding of this Psalm makes Jesus superfluous.
            ]
            You must understand, of course, that within Christiandom, there are many varied beliefs, and so when I refer to Christians, it must be with the understanding that probably not all will agree with what I am saying in every instance.
            Yes, I have noticed.
            Not so different from Jews, who also have different sects and beliefs. A casual reading of nearly any portion of the Talmud exemplifies that fact.
            Right, that is true. The difference of course being that the content of one's beliefs is not of tremendous importance in Judaism.

            Comment


            • #7
              An interesting aside: On a Torah scroll some letters have 'crowns' on them. The story goes that Moses asked God what they were for. God told Moses that in the distant future a rabbi named Akiva would glean many laws from the placement of those crowns.
              I'd be interesting in knowing more about those crowns. First time I've anything about them.


              Okay, we'll go with something perhaps a bit more familiar. That last was a bit obscure even for most Christians.
              So let's look at B'reshiyth (Genesis) 3:14-15.
              Genesis 3:15-16
              (15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
              (16) Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

              It is commonly taught (in the Christian realm at least) that this serpent is speaking of Satan, that his seed speaks of those who follow him, either knowingly or unknowingly, and that the woman represents Israel, and her seed represents the Messiah, prophecied to be born of a virgin by the prophet Yesha'yahu:
              Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
              and again here:
              Isaiah 9:6-7
              (6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
              (7) Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

              This story of the virgin birth, and the crushing of the head of the serpent is declared in the constellations.
              The virgin is seen in Bethulah (Virgo), in the decan Comah, the desired one, which is a pictograph of a woman seated and holding a child on her lap,
              Haggai 2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.
              and in the decan Bezah, the despised one (Centaurus), a pictograph of a centaur, a despised creature
              Isaiah 53:2-12
              (2) For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
              (3) He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
              (4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
              (5) But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
              (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
              (7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
              (8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
              (9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
              (10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
              (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
              (12) Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
              and in the decan Bo, To come, or Coming, (Bootes) a pictograph of a man, perhaps a prince, with a cycle in one hand ready to reap the harvest of the earth.
              Psalms 96:11-13
              (11) Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be glad; let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof.
              (12) Let the field be joyful, and all that [is] therein: then shall all the trees of the wood rejoice
              (13) Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.
              The story of this constellation and it's 3 associated decans speak of one born of a virgin, who would come, and be despised and hated, but would become the King and Ruler and Judge of the earth and it's inhabitants.
              What is the Jewish understanding of the seed of the virgin?
              And feel free to comment on any of the other passages cited, as well.

              Comment


              • #8
                OK, here's a paragraph that Jews consider messianic:

                Ezekiel 37: 21 And say unto them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; 22 23 24 And My servant David shall be king over them, and they all shall have one shepherd; they shall also walk in Mine ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, for ever; and David My servant shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them--it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. 27 My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever.' and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

                Pretty straightforward. Understood quite literally.

                How do Christians understand this?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                  Okay, we'll go with something perhaps a bit more familiar. That last was a bit obscure even for most Christians.
                  So let's look at B'reshiyth (Genesis) 3:14-15.
                  Genesis 3:15-16
                  (15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
                  (16) Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
                  Jews understand this to mean that people won't like snakes. Which is actually true!


                  Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
                  The Hebrew actually reads "A young woman is pregnant..." present tense, nothing about virgins.

                  and again here:
                  Isaiah 9:6-7
                  (6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
                  (7) Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
                  In Hebrew this is translated "The Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, will call his name 'The Prince of Peace.' Commonly inferred as speaking of king Hezekiah.

                  Isaiah 53:2-12
                  (2) For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
                  (3) He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
                  (4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
                  (5) But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
                  (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
                  (7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
                  (8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
                  (9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
                  (10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
                  (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
                  (12) Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
                  Understood as referring to the Jewish people as a whole, who are referred to as God's servant five times in Isaiah. See my sig for one such example.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Pretty straightforward. Understood quite literally.
                    How do Christians understand this?

                    Good question. Among Christians there is a differing of opinion on the end times, the millennial reign, etc. So I cannot speak for all Christians. I can speak for myself however.
                    I understand this as saying that the children of Israel will gather in their own land. (I think we are seeing that today). I understand that One from the house of David, ie, one of his descendants, will be king over them, and not them only, but over all nations. I believe that He will establish His ordinances and statutes, and that we shall observe and do them. I believe that He will set His sanctuary at Jerusalem, and shall rule the earth from that place.
                    Where you and I differ is that I believe this coming Messiah will have scars in his wrists and feet, and side, that He has already come a first time, as a suffering servant, to atone once and for all the sins of all mankind (who are willing to accept it), and will come the second time as reigning King.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                      Jews understand this to mean that people won't like snakes. Which is actually true!
                      Yes, it is true. I can be included in that number.

                      The Hebrew actually reads "A young woman is pregnant..." present tense, nothing about virgins.
                      I see. So then, should it be interpretted as 'A young woman is pregnant, and is bearing a son, and is calling him Emmanuel.'?
                      In Hebrew this is translated "The Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, will call his name 'The Prince of Peace.' Commonly inferred as speaking of king Hezekiah.
                      Okay.

                      [uote]Understood as referring to the Jewish people as a whole, who are referred to as God's servant five times in Isaiah. See my sig for one such example.[/quote]You have probably already heard the Christian version of that passage. You view the 'he' as all Israel, whereas we view the 'he' as the Messiah, Who having come in the flesh the first time, suffered on the cross, was despised by his brethren, and all others, Who was wounded and bruised, and bore stripes, was brought as a lamb to the slaughter, all this for the transgression of His people, and all mankind, Whose soul was made an offering for sin, and bore our iniquities, and Who shall return to rule over the earth.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                        Where you and I differ is that I believe this coming Messiah will have scars in his wrists and feet, and side, that He has already come a first time, as a suffering servant, to atone once and for all the sins of all mankind (who are willing to accept it), and will come the second time as reigning King.
                        Well, the biggest difference really is that we see the messiah as a man and you see the messiah as a god.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kahtar View Post

                          I see. So then, should it be interpretted as 'A young woman is pregnant, and is bearing a son, and is calling him Emmanuel.'?
                          The context for the verse:

                          7: 3. And the Lord said to Isaiah, "Now go out toward Ahaz, you and Shear-Yashuv your son, to the edge of the conduit of the upper pool, to the road of the washer's field.

                          4. And you shall say to him, "Feel secure and calm yourself, do not fear, and let your heart not be faint because of these two smoking stubs of firebrands, because of the raging anger of Rezin and Aram and the son of Remaliah.

                          He's giving a prophecy to king Ahaz: Don't be afraid of the two empires.

                          11. "Ask for yourself a sign from the Lord, your God: ask it either in the depths, or in the heights above."


                          What is the sign?

                          14. Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

                          16. For, when the lad does not yet know to reject bad and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread, shall be abandoned."

                          And the fulfillment of this prophecy?

                          2 Kings
                          16:5 Then Rezin king of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war; and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him. 6 At that time Rezin king of Aram recovered Elath to Aram, and drove the Jews from Elath; and the Edomites came to Elath, and dwelt there, unto this day. {P} 7 So Ahaz sent messengers to Tiglath-pileser king of Assyria, saying: 'I am thy servant and thy son; come up, and save me out of the hand of the king of Aram, and out of the hand of the king of Israel, who rise up against me.' 8 And Ahaz took the silver and gold that was found in the house of the LORD, and in the treasures of the king's house, and sent it for a present to the king of Assyria. 9 And the king of Assyria hearkened unto him; and the king of Assyria went up against Damascus, and took it, and carried the people of it captive to Kir, and slew Rezin.


                          and

                          15: 29 In the days of Pekah king of Israel came Tiglath-pileser king of Assyria, and took Ijon, and Abel-beth-maacah, and Janoah, and Kedesh, and Hazor, and Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naphtali; and he carried them captive to Assyria. 30 And Hoshea the son of Elah made a conspiracy against Pekah the son of Remaliah, and smote him, and slew him, and reigned in his stead, in the twentieth year of Jotham the son of Uzziah.







                          You have probably already heard the Christian version of that passage. You view the 'he' as all Israel, whereas we view the 'he' as the Messiah, Who having come in the flesh the first time, suffered on the cross, was despised by his brethren, and all others, Who was wounded and bruised, and bore stripes, was brought as a lamb to the slaughter, all this for the transgression of His people, and all mankind, Whose soul was made an offering for sin, and bore our iniquities, and Who shall return to rule over the earth.
                          I am well familiar with it. Again, this is an interpretation that makes sense only if you already believe that it's about Jesus.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                            Well, the biggest difference really is that we see the messiah as a man and you see the messiah as a god.
                            mmmm, that too, except we see the Messiah as God, rather than 'a god'.

                            In the fulfillment you provided, which one was Immanuel, the prophecied son?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kahtar View Post
                              In the fulfillment you provided, which one was Immanuel, the prophecied son?
                              He isn't a prophesied son, he's a foil. By the time he's old enough to know good from bad, the threat to Israel will be gone. That's the plain text.

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