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  • Who is the man whose number is 666?

    It is my humble opinion, that the high priest of the Jews, in Paul's day, was the man whose number is 666, for the following reasons;

    1. The events prophesied were to be "soon;" [Rev 1:1]

    2. Saul of Tarsus had reason to believe he was doing God a service, when he persued Christians for arrest, trial, and death. "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." [John 16:2]

    And though Saul of Tarsus killed Christians, he proclaimed his own innocence. This cannot be explained away by simply saying "I didn't know." "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men." [Acts 20:26]

    3. WHEN THE HIGH PRIEST SPOKE, he was the only man alive who knew whether his message was from God, or from himself. The High priest was the spokesman for God, before the Hebrew nation: "But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. 47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he NOT OF HIMSELF: but BEING HIGH PRIEST that year, HE PROPHESIED that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." [John 11:46-52]

    4. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS IN AT THE BEGINNING OF PERSECUTION
    The High priest was involved in the developement of the persecution which followed the first preaching of the gospel, in Acts the second chapter. "And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, 6 And Annas THE HIGH PRIEST, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel." [Acts 4:5-8]

    5. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS WITH THOSE WHO ARRESTED THE APOSTLES: "Then THE HIGH PRIEST rose up, and all they that were with him, which is the sect of the Sadducees, and were filled with indignation, 18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison." [Acts 5;17]

    6. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO CALLED THE COUNCIL - "And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But THE HIGH PRIEST came, and they that were with him, AND CALLED THE COUNCIL together, and all the senate of the children of Israel and sent to the prison to have them brought. 24 Now when THE HIGH PRIEST and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. 27...and THE HIGH PRIEST asked them," [Acts 5:21-27]

    7. AND IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO WITNESSED THE DEATH OF STEPHEN
    At the preaching of Stephen, and his subsequent death, the High Priest was witness: "Then said THE HIGH PRIEST, Are these things so? 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." [Acts 7:1,57-59]

    8. SAUL OF TARSUS HAD LOST FAMILY MEMBERS TO HERESY
    SAUL OF TARSUS had heard that family members were being drawn away into heresy, and sought out authority from the High Priest to stop it: "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets." [Acts 24:14] "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." [Rom 16:7]

    9. IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED, FOR ARREST AUTHORITY
    "And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto THE HIGH PRIEST, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." [Acts 9:1-2]

    10. AND IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHENTICATION
    "As also THE HIGH PRIEST doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished." [Acts 22:5]

    11. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO TURNED AGAINST PAUL THE APOSTLE
    It was the High Priest who testified against Paul to the Roman authorities. "And after five days Ananias THE HIGH PRIEST descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul. 25:2 Then THE HIGH PRIEST and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him," [Acts 24:1; 25:1]

    12. IT WAS TO THE CHIEF PRIESTS SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHORITY
    Paul testified as to whence his authority: "Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities. 12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests," [Acts 26:10-12]

    CONCLUSION: The High Priest was the only man who could possibly qualify to fulfill the prophecies relating to the man whose number is 666. Man was created the sixth day = 6. The Priests (6) were the closest to God (God being 7, or perfection), and the High Priest was the highest of the priests = 6. Thus 6+6+6 or 666

    What think ye?

  • #2
    This is better suited to End Times Chat - moving it there for continued discussion.
    Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
    Not second or third, but first.
    Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
    when He is the source of all hope,
    when His love is received and freely given,
    holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
    will all other things be added unto to you.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by the sinner View Post
      It is my humble opinion, that the high priest of the Jews, in Paul's day, was the man whose number is 666, for the following reasons;

      1. The events prophesied were to be "soon;" [Rev 1:1]
      It is a common misconception that Revelation 1:1 says that, but it does not say anything of the sort in the Greek New Testaments. I am aware that some English translations have failed to translate that verse properly (usually, their dropping of translating the Greek word "en" which is a preposition to the Greek Noun "taxei"). What it means is that "when" these things occur, they will occur "quickly", "with speed / suddenness / quickness." The time will be short when compared to thousands of years.

      (1) This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that are to occur with speed[1], in future ages[2], which he sent and made known by his angel[3] to his servant, John,
      (2) who testified to God’s word, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, about everything that he saw, both the things that are[4] and those that must happen after these.

      Footnotes:

      [1]
      Things that are to occur with speed: Or, quickness, suddenness [BAS]. The Greek here is ταχει and may be rendered several ways. Here it means something that occurs with a suddenness, not something that "will happen right away", unless, depending upon the context, an instruction is given to do it ‘right away’. The whole phrase is the same as that at #/LXX Daniel 2:28 [LXX]. Whether this is an interpretative paraphrase or just the borrowing of a phrase is left to the reader. The prophetic context of #Daniel 2$ may refer to those matters which occur near the end of the vision. Another issue here, is that The Seer’s knowledge of Greek in not fluent, so εν ταχει may be a term he only knew as of ‘fast, suddenness, etc.’. The term “with speed” here, is translated from the Greek expression, “eν ταχει”.

      [2] Arabic version has this phrase.

      [3] or, messenger (here and wherever angel is mentioned)

      [4] “the things that are” not in TR and NU, but is in the Byzantine version, and is conveyed in 1:19.

      ---

      2. Saul of Tarsus had reason to believe he was doing God a service, when he persued Christians for arrest, trial, and death. "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." [John 16:2]

      And though Saul of Tarsus killed Christians, he proclaimed his own innocence. This cannot be explained away by simply saying "I didn't know." "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men." [Acts 20:26]

      3. WHEN THE HIGH PRIEST SPOKE, he was the only man alive who knew whether his message was from God, or from himself. The High priest was the spokesman for God, before the Hebrew nation: "But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. 47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he NOT OF HIMSELF: but BEING HIGH PRIEST that year, HE PROPHESIED that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." [John 11:46-52]

      4. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS IN AT THE BEGINNING OF PERSECUTION
      The High priest was involved in the developement of the persecution which followed the first preaching of the gospel, in Acts the second chapter. "And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, 6 And Annas THE HIGH PRIEST, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel." [Acts 4:5-8]

      5. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS WITH THOSE WHO ARRESTED THE APOSTLES: "Then THE HIGH PRIEST rose up, and all they that were with him, which is the sect of the Sadducees, and were filled with indignation, 18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison." [Acts 5;17]

      6. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO CALLED THE COUNCIL - "And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But THE HIGH PRIEST came, and they that were with him, AND CALLED THE COUNCIL together, and all the senate of the children of Israel and sent to the prison to have them brought. 24 Now when THE HIGH PRIEST and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. 27...and THE HIGH PRIEST asked them," [Acts 5:21-27]

      7. AND IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO WITNESSED THE DEATH OF STEPHEN
      At the preaching of Stephen, and his subsequent death, the High Priest was witness: "Then said THE HIGH PRIEST, Are these things so? 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." [Acts 7:1,57-59]

      8. SAUL OF TARSUS HAD LOST FAMILY MEMBERS TO HERESY
      SAUL OF TARSUS had heard that family members were being drawn away into heresy, and sought out authority from the High Priest to stop it: "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets." [Acts 24:14] "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." [Rom 16:7]

      9. IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED, FOR ARREST AUTHORITY
      "And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto THE HIGH PRIEST, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." [Acts 9:1-2]

      10. AND IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHENTICATION
      "As also THE HIGH PRIEST doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished." [Acts 22:5]

      11. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO TURNED AGAINST PAUL THE APOSTLE
      It was the High Priest who testified against Paul to the Roman authorities. "And after five days Ananias THE HIGH PRIEST descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul. 25:2 Then THE HIGH PRIEST and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him," [Acts 24:1; 25:1]

      12. IT WAS TO THE CHIEF PRIESTS SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHORITY
      Paul testified as to whence his authority: "Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities. 12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests," [Acts 26:10-12]

      CONCLUSION: The High Priest was the only man who could possibly qualify to fulfill the prophecies relating to the man whose number is 666. Man was created the sixth day = 6. The Priests (6) were the closest to God (God being 7, or perfection), and the High Priest was the highest of the priests = 6. Thus 6+6+6 or 666

      What think ye?
      The Seer (aka John The Presbyter) had used freely not only his own visions of various dates, but also Jewish and Christian sources of Neronic and Vespasianic dates in the presentation of his great theme. But unhappily the prophet did not live to revise his work, or even to put the materials of 20:4-22 into their legitimate order. Much of Revelation is in disarray (with the exception of chaps. 1, 4, 5, 6 and 10 {chap. 8 is fine when the interpolations are removed]), but as for the 666 (616 is an alternate reading in some MSS), the source used to convey those words (and/or visions) was Neronic, meaning, the name used was "Neron", whose name in Hebrew add up to 666, and 616 in using the Latin variation spelling of his name, "Nero."

      As for The Book Of Acts, it is seen by some as "a subversion of the Book of Galations." (The "related" accounts in the 2 books do not agree, among other issues, thus, Galatians wins the votes.)

      As for Paul, (I just wrote this elsewhere tonight),
      you can find his real conversion in:
      1 Corinthians 15:1-9
      Galatians 1:13-24

      Keep on shining!
      "A text without context is a pretext."

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Clifton View Post
        It is a common misconception that Revelation 1:1 says that, but it does not say anything of the sort in the Greek New Testaments. I am aware that some English translations have failed to translate that verse properly (usually, their dropping of translating the Greek word "en" which is a preposition to the Greek Noun "taxei"). What it means is that "when" these things occur, they will occur "quickly", "with speed / suddenness / quickness." The time will be short when compared to thousands of years.

        (1) This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that are to occur with speed[1]
        I really don't see the difference. An event to come "en" (with quickness or speed (tachos) in relation to time(en)) is reasonably translated as "soon". We also have the example of the apostles and disciples themselves who all acted as if they believed that Jesus was going to return in their lifetime. In fact, Paul (I think it was Paul) had to comfort the recipients of one of his letters, as they were beginning to grow restless, a number of them having "fallen asleep".

        I think our problem is that we don't really understand God's sense of time. "Soon", unfortunately for us, can mean quite a lot of time on Earth. That is why Revelation 20:3 should send shivers down everyone's spine.

        "And after that [Satan] must be loosed a little season."

        A little season?! What does that mean? Three months? Nice try. I get the feeling this is going to be a rough time between the Millennial Age and the Kingdom Age.

        Anyway, we should be careful when trying to figure out time spans unless we are told specifically what it means.

        Lighthope

        Pearls of Wisdom - "If we accept that a mother can kill her own child, how can we tell people not to kill each other?" - Mother Teresa on abortion

        Comment


        • #5
          I would like to give comments from my Study Bible:

          The Beast from the Sea: Revelation 13 (KJV Bible Commentary)

          13:18. His number is Six hundred threescore and six (666). It is almost impossible to list the number of suggestions for 666; they range all the way from Nero in ancient Rome to persons in this day. Probably the most that can be gleaned is that since seven is the biblical number of completion, six, which falls short of it, is man’s failure at its worst. Man’s worship of man is, indeed, spiritual insanity to the highest degree.

          my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

          If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

          Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lighthope View Post
            I really don't see the difference. An event to come "en" (with quickness or speed (tachos) in relation to time(en)) is reasonably translated as "soon".
            ταχος is not found the Greek New Testament I checked. That is a nominative case noun, singular, neuter gender. That’s the lexicon/dictionary “entry” for it’s own form and other forms as well, which are governed by other factors such as PREPositions, etc., and a couple of times, the word by itself, as to whether it is in the GENITIVE CASE (e.g. “of”) or DATIVE CASE. It is common for a Greek Dictionary to give nouns in their nominative case and singular number forms.

            Also, the word “soon” is an Adverb, as well as “shortly” – there are already Greek Adverb forms of the stem ταχ, as well as other Greek Adverbs for that. In Revelation 1:1, here’s the clause:

            εν <1722> {PREP} ταχει <5034> {N-DSN} <- {Noun-Dative Singular Neuter}.

            So, reading the Greek, there is a difference - BTW, εν (en) does not mean "an event to come" or ‘relation’ to time from “this time (of writing / speaking) to another time”; εν is a PREPosition, basically meaning "in, by, with, through, etc." - furthermore, the noun ταχει (pronounced "tax-ay") itself is a DATIVE CASE, and even the word by itself means a supplied English word of "with", "by", "in", "for", so the Greek εν appears here to give ταχει a greater force since it itself is in the DATIVE. Thus, even without the Greek εν, ταχει by itself here word mean "in / with quickness, suddenness / speed." Also, besides the word "soon" being an Adverb, there are already Greek words for that: Adverbs παραχρημα (I believe this is the word that most folks are mistakenly reading the text as using, or adding to it), τανυν, μηκετι, νυν or ευθεως. Since the Greek εν is here, and since ταχει is a DATIVE CASE form, then when restoring the Greek εν into the text, without changing the English used for ταχει in some translations, it would read like:

            in /with shortly /swiftly / soon / shortly / quickly”, which does not make good English sense.

            Not all English translations fail on a good reading and replace a noun with an adverb for Revelation 1:1 (there are also two or more other places where Strong’s #5034 occurs in Revelation as well);

            1 ¶ (VW) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His servants; things which must happen quickly. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,

            1 ¶ (LIT) A Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to show to His slaves things which must occur quickly. And He signified [by] sending through His angel to His slave, John,

            I can understand how the English Reader might somehow inadvertently changed the text to read “things which must SOON happen/occur quickly”. But “quickly” here means, WHEN they do happen, they will happen quickly – swiftly – suddenly. As you correctly point out with your “little season” comments, you can understand that “by comparison”, that when the things happen which the Noun ταχει is referring to, they will happen in “a short manner of time”, in comparison of the time of the Earth in its current state.

            1 ¶ (ALT) [The] revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to show to His slaves what [things are] necessary to occur with quickness. And He made [it] known, having sent through His angel to His slave John,

            That translation, ALT (Analytical Literal Translation), provides one of the best readings. When one continues to increase their acquaintance with Koine Greek, they will recognize this, and will not need to jump in a New York TAXI or have a round with Mike Tyson to understand the meaning of "with speed". And anyone can also check with any Greek Grammar resources to see this as well.
            "A text without context is a pretext."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by the sinner View Post
              It is my humble opinion, that the high priest of the Jews, in Paul's day, was the man whose number is 666, for the following reasons;

              1. The events prophesied were to be "soon;" [Rev 1:1]

              2. Saul of Tarsus had reason to believe he was doing God a service, when he persued Christians for arrest, trial, and death. "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." [John 16:2]

              And though Saul of Tarsus killed Christians, he proclaimed his own innocence. This cannot be explained away by simply saying "I didn't know." "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men." [Acts 20:26]

              3. WHEN THE HIGH PRIEST SPOKE, he was the only man alive who knew whether his message was from God, or from himself. The High priest was the spokesman for God, before the Hebrew nation: "But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. 47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he NOT OF HIMSELF: but BEING HIGH PRIEST that year, HE PROPHESIED that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." [John 11:46-52]

              4. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS IN AT THE BEGINNING OF PERSECUTION
              The High priest was involved in the developement of the persecution which followed the first preaching of the gospel, in Acts the second chapter. "And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, 6 And Annas THE HIGH PRIEST, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel." [Acts 4:5-8]

              5. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS WITH THOSE WHO ARRESTED THE APOSTLES: "Then THE HIGH PRIEST rose up, and all they that were with him, which is the sect of the Sadducees, and were filled with indignation, 18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison." [Acts 5;17]

              6. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO CALLED THE COUNCIL - "And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But THE HIGH PRIEST came, and they that were with him, AND CALLED THE COUNCIL together, and all the senate of the children of Israel and sent to the prison to have them brought. 24 Now when THE HIGH PRIEST and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. 27...and THE HIGH PRIEST asked them," [Acts 5:21-27]

              7. AND IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO WITNESSED THE DEATH OF STEPHEN
              At the preaching of Stephen, and his subsequent death, the High Priest was witness: "Then said THE HIGH PRIEST, Are these things so? 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." [Acts 7:1,57-59]

              8. SAUL OF TARSUS HAD LOST FAMILY MEMBERS TO HERESY
              SAUL OF TARSUS had heard that family members were being drawn away into heresy, and sought out authority from the High Priest to stop it: "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets." [Acts 24:14] "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." [Rom 16:7]

              9. IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED, FOR ARREST AUTHORITY
              "And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto THE HIGH PRIEST, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." [Acts 9:1-2]

              10. AND IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHENTICATION
              "As also THE HIGH PRIEST doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished." [Acts 22:5]

              11. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO TURNED AGAINST PAUL THE APOSTLE
              It was the High Priest who testified against Paul to the Roman authorities. "And after five days Ananias THE HIGH PRIEST descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul. 25:2 Then THE HIGH PRIEST and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him," [Acts 24:1; 25:1]

              12. IT WAS TO THE CHIEF PRIESTS SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHORITY
              Paul testified as to whence his authority: "Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities. 12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests," [Acts 26:10-12]

              CONCLUSION: The High Priest was the only man who could possibly qualify to fulfill the prophecies relating to the man whose number is 666. Man was created the sixth day = 6. The Priests (6) were the closest to God (God being 7, or perfection), and the High Priest was the highest of the priests = 6. Thus 6+6+6 or 666

              What think ye?
              Where therefore would you put the beast and the false prophet that will be here at the return of Christ, and destroyed at that time.

              Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

              Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

              Comment


              • #8
                Depends - Figurative or literal combat?

                Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                Where therefore would you put the beast and the false prophet that will be here at the return of Christ, and destroyed at that time.

                Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

                Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
                If the battle referenced is literal, Your point is well made. If however, the battle is figurative, or in fact if it takes place after the end of life as we know it, then the High priest of the Jews would again lead the fray against the people of God.

                Depends upon literal or figurative use of "beast;" "kings of earth" (Which kings?); and the army of him who sat on his horse, at what point in time is the sitting on the horse?

                Too much to determine without further evidential examination. Also, GOOD POINT!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by the sinner View Post
                  If the battle referenced is literal, Your point is well made. If however, the battle is figurative, or in fact if it takes place after the end of life as we know it, then the High priest of the Jews would again lead the fray against the people of God.

                  Depends upon literal or figurative use of "beast;" "kings of earth" (Which kings?); and the army of him who sat on his horse, at what point in time is the sitting on the horse?

                  Too much to determine without further evidential examination. Also, GOOD POINT!
                  Do we believe that Armageddon will happen, and that this is just before the 7th trumpet when Christ will return to destroy the beast and the false prophet etc?

                  Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
                  Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

                  Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

                  Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

                  If Armageddon takes place before Jesus returns then can it be applied to the past?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Clifton View Post
                    I can understand how the English Reader might somehow inadvertently changed the text to read “things which must SOON happen/occur quickly”. But “quickly” here means, WHEN they do happen, they will happen quickly – swiftly – suddenly.
                    That is not how the early disciples understood that passage. And since they had, and used, the original Greek, we can rely on their interpretation. And their interpretation indicates that "soon" is the correct English translation. As I pointed out, the early disciples were becoming quite concerned that Jesus had not yet returned and they were starting to get old.

                    Lighthope

                    Pearls of Wisdom - My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by the sinner View Post
                      It is my humble opinion, that the high priest of the Jews, in Paul's day, was the man whose number is 666, for the following reasons;

                      1. The events prophesied were to be "soon;" [Rev 1:1]

                      2. Saul of Tarsus had reason to believe he was doing God a service, when he persued Christians for arrest, trial, and death. "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." [John 16:2]

                      And though Saul of Tarsus killed Christians, he proclaimed his own innocence. This cannot be explained away by simply saying "I didn't know." "Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men." [Acts 20:26]

                      3. WHEN THE HIGH PRIEST SPOKE, he was the only man alive who knew whether his message was from God, or from himself. The High priest was the spokesman for God, before the Hebrew nation: "But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. 47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. 49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this spake he NOT OF HIMSELF: but BEING HIGH PRIEST that year, HE PROPHESIED that Jesus should die for that nation; 52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." [John 11:46-52]

                      4. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS IN AT THE BEGINNING OF PERSECUTION
                      The High priest was involved in the developement of the persecution which followed the first preaching of the gospel, in Acts the second chapter. "And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, 6 And Annas THE HIGH PRIEST, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this? 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel." [Acts 4:5-8]

                      5. THE HIGH PRIEST WAS WITH THOSE WHO ARRESTED THE APOSTLES: "Then THE HIGH PRIEST rose up, and all they that were with him, which is the sect of the Sadducees, and were filled with indignation, 18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison." [Acts 5;17]

                      6. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO CALLED THE COUNCIL - "And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But THE HIGH PRIEST came, and they that were with him, AND CALLED THE COUNCIL together, and all the senate of the children of Israel and sent to the prison to have them brought. 24 Now when THE HIGH PRIEST and the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these things, they doubted of them whereunto this would grow. 27...and THE HIGH PRIEST asked them," [Acts 5:21-27]

                      7. AND IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO WITNESSED THE DEATH OF STEPHEN
                      At the preaching of Stephen, and his subsequent death, the High Priest was witness: "Then said THE HIGH PRIEST, Are these things so? 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." [Acts 7:1,57-59]

                      8. SAUL OF TARSUS HAD LOST FAMILY MEMBERS TO HERESY
                      SAUL OF TARSUS had heard that family members were being drawn away into heresy, and sought out authority from the High Priest to stop it: "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets." [Acts 24:14] "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." [Rom 16:7]

                      9. IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED, FOR ARREST AUTHORITY
                      "And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto THE HIGH PRIEST, 2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem." [Acts 9:1-2]

                      10. AND IT WAS TO THE HIGH PRIEST SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHENTICATION
                      "As also THE HIGH PRIEST doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished." [Acts 22:5]

                      11. IT WAS THE HIGH PRIEST WHO TURNED AGAINST PAUL THE APOSTLE
                      It was the High Priest who testified against Paul to the Roman authorities. "And after five days Ananias THE HIGH PRIEST descended with the elders, and with a certain orator named Tertullus, who informed the governor against Paul. 25:2 Then THE HIGH PRIEST and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him," [Acts 24:1; 25:1]

                      12. IT WAS TO THE CHIEF PRIESTS SAUL OF TARSUS TURNED FOR AUTHORITY
                      Paul testified as to whence his authority: "Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities. 12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests," [Acts 26:10-12]

                      CONCLUSION: The High Priest was the only man who could possibly qualify to fulfill the prophecies relating to the man whose number is 666. Man was created the sixth day = 6. The Priests (6) were the closest to God (God being 7, or perfection), and the High Priest was the highest of the priests = 6. Thus 6+6+6 or 666

                      What think ye?
                      Sinner,

                      '666' is, though there may be more involved, a reference to the fact the AC will claim to be the Jewish Messiah, the seed of David. And this is so in that the only other place it is used is in reference to Solomon, the son of David, the man of peace who would build the temple.

                      AC will also build the temple. But his false prophet, the Jewish High Priest, will honor him. And this FP is as the messenger of the covenant in Malachi. And he will cause all to be marked with the 666 of the AC.

                      2Witnesses

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lighthope View Post
                        That is not how the early disciples understood that passage. And since they had, and used, the original Greek, we can rely on their interpretation. And their interpretation indicates that "soon" is the correct English translation. As I pointed out, the early disciples were becoming quite concerned that Jesus had not yet returned and they were starting to get old.
                        Your statement "their interpretation indicates that "soon" is false in relation to Revelation and as has already been pointed out, is in error - re: grammatical error. And besides, what "disciples" are you referring to? Revelation was not compiled until the mid to late 90's A.D. so the early disciples were gone, at least most of them (then there is the issue of DSS Revelation). What you refer to as "the original Greek" was "The Koine Greek", of which I've been quite acquainted with for over a dozen years, and by no means did it (εν ταχει), or has it ever meant "with soon" (you dropped the Greek "εν" here and your rendering is nonsensical when "εν" is restored), and "Soon" is not a noun, it is an adverb, thus, is by no means a dative. Plus, there are no significant variants for Revelation 1:1 - if one wish the changes the underlying Greek into an unsupported reading, or just change the grammar and meaning of the words and clauses, that mangles up other Greek Scripture passages. I have provided the Koine Greek of it, and have noted that it can be confirmed by the experts on Greek Grammar and their resources. In this place, 1:1, it's not open for "private interpretation" and is not "optional": it says what it says and is plain and simple in Greek and to Greeks and those acquainted with Greek and are fluent in it.

                        If you drop "εν" from Luke 22:49, Mark 4:2, Acts 1:3, and John 1:26, they would sound a bit silly (Mark 4:2 would not "look" so bad, but by dropping "εν", it changes the context"). Shall I present those verses here without the "εν"?

                        I'm curious - and I wish to learn other's positions, so please help me out: why do you seek to omit the Greek preposition "en" and change a noun into an adverb (which all together is a different Greek word)? What purpose does it serve for you? What difference does it make to you?
                        "A text without context is a pretext."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 2Witnesses View Post
                          Sinner,

                          '666' is, though there may be more involved, a reference to the fact the AC will claim to be the Jewish Messiah, the seed of David. And this is so in that the only other place it is used is in reference to Solomon, the son of David, the man of peace who would build the temple.

                          AC will also build the temple. But his false prophet, the Jewish High Priest, will honor him. And this FP is as the messenger of the covenant in Malachi. And he will cause all to be marked with the 666 of the AC.

                          2Witnesses
                          Where are the scriptures for any of this? Where does it say another temple will be built...all the OT scriptures about the temple being rebuilt after the Babylons destroyed it already came true and it was rebuild then destroyed again by the Romans. Where are the scriptures that the antichrist will claim to be the Jewish Messiah, the seed of David? thanks!

                          John wrote Revelation to the early Christians who spoke either greek or hebrew...in their alphabet each letter was numbered. They could literally write a sentence using numbers only and it be readable to others that knew their language. The Hebrews also omitted vowels too. I believe Revelation was written before 90 AD ...before 70 AD when the temple was destroyed and Jerusalem 'trodden under by the gentiles"...would be unbelievable that John would not mention these events if they had already happened. It would be like someone writing our current history now and leaving out what happened on 911.

                          John wrote it in symbolic terms so the Romans would not understand it and he relates the symbolism to the OT wording. Likewise I believe he used a number to 'name' the beast instead of just saying the beast name because it would have gotten him killed. Nero's name adds up to 666 in Hebrew..616 in greek. This is why in some bibles you see a footnote saying 'some manuscripts have it as 616) both languages used numbers like this. If the Romans got their hands on the scroll it would make no sense to them since they didn't know either language. But the believers would know. John was trying to warn them as to who the beast was. Nero demanded he be worshiped as a god, or die. He slaughter a huge number of Christians in the most gruesome ways possible. He fed them to the lions...wrapped them in tar and set them on fire, cut out their tongues. The list of horrors he did goes on and on. He had kicked his own pregnant wife to death, had his mother killed and every relative killed ...he was very paranoid people were out to kill him!

                          He fits the description of the beast in Revelation 13 for sure.

                          Here is an example of what I am talking about:
                          http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_Eight/Hebrew_Gematria/hebrew_gematria.html
                          Hebrew Gematria
                          finding numberical relationships between words and phrases


                          God bless
                          "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Some extra food for thought.

                            Concerning, Nero / The Number of the Beast / & the date of Revelation being written, here's a quote by the late Robet Young, Bible Scholar.
                            Young shares this belief on Revelation's dating with many others....

                            "Dating Revelation"
                            "It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D.175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, ie., Domitius (Nero).

                            Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date."

                            So, there are numerous writings, & people who say that Irenaeus' statement was mis-interpreted as "Domitian".

                            Like I said,
                            Food for thought... / Details for debate.

                            Hebrews 11:1 Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
                            _______________________________________________
                            There was a time when I used to think Macro-evolution might be a possibility..... but then I GREW UP!
                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Meike & I have the same birthday! Na-na na, na-na!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by markdrums View Post
                              Concerning, Nero / The Number of the Beast / & the date of Revelation being written, here's a quote by the late Robet Young, Bible Scholar.
                              Young shares this belief on Revelation's dating with many others....

                              "Dating Revelation"
                              "It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D.175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, ie., Domitius (Nero).
                              As I have already stated in my 1st post in this thread, The Seer (aka John The Presbyter) had used freely not only his own visions of various dates, but also Jewish and Christian sources of Neronic and Vespasianic dates in the presentation of his great theme... but as for the 666 (616 is an alternate reading in some MSS), the source used to convey those words (and/or visions) was Neronic, meaning, the name used was "Neron", whose name in Hebrew add up to 666, and 616 in using the Latin variation spelling of his name, "Nero."

                              Materials used by The Seer for his themes ran anywhere from thousands of years B.C. on up to the 90's A.D. - then of course, there is DSS Revelation (which exhibits a pre-Christian text with much text underlying the Bible Revelation) - so it is more or less, better said "when the book was complied" (basically, it was first "penned" over several centuries prior to 100 A.D., in other texts) - the fact that materials used of various times in the 1st Century causes these "shifts" in "date determinations". Example for The first few verses of Chap. 12:

                              "...The vision goes back before the birth of Christ, and tells with mythological coloring how Satan sought to destroy Christ, and, after His ascension, the Church itself. In setting forth his theme The Seer has borrowed the main part of this chapter from Jewish sources, which had in turn been derived from international sources, and has adapted them -- though not wholly -- to their new and Christian setting..."

                              It relates also to Mary with the baby fleeing elsewhere due to Herod's attempt to kill the child. Thus, can we assume that the Bible Revelation was compiled while Mary was in Egypt???

                              If you would like to know about the sources used, you can see this in 2 web pages:

                              http://www.dabar.org/RHCharles/Revel...ntro-%20VI.htm

                              http://www.dabar.org/RHCharles/Revelation/intro-VII.htm

                              These pages contains the introduction section of Volume 1 of A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on The Revelation of St. John; R. H. Charles T. & T. Clark, 1920 (2 Volumes).

                              EXAMPLE ABSTRACT OF THE OUTLINES FROM THE ABOVE REFERENCED URL:
                              Chaps. 17-18 (71-79 A.D.). These chapters, though recast by our author to serve his own main purpose, preserve incongruous elements and traces of an earlier date. Thus 17:10-11 cannot be reasonably interpreted of a later time than Vespasian. And yet our author's additions in 17:8. 11, which refers to the demonic Nero coming up from the abyss, can only be explained by a Domitianic date. The sense is confused, but the date is clear. To leave this passage unaltered was an oversight on the part of our author. Similarly, 18:4 (see vol. ii. 96 sq.) postulates a Vespasianic date.

                              This is over 1000 pages worth between the two volumes. The copyright is expired and you can access the two volumes (in Acrobat Reader PDF Format) at:

                              Volume 1
                              http://www.archive.org/details/acrit...exeg01charuoft

                              Volume 2
                              http://www.archive.org/details/acrit...exeg02charuoft

                              The English Translation of Revelation is from pages 386 to 446 in Volume 2.

                              Charles' spent over 25 years in this work, and DOES give a list of the used sources, including a Critical Apparatus, etc.

                              Also, as has already been pointed out in the other thread in this forum (which I confirmed), Revelation 2:13 references the proto-martyr ANTIPAS, which was martyred in 92 A.D.

                              Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date."

                              So, there are numerous writings, & people who say that Irenaeus' statement was mis-interpreted as "Domitian".
                              This argument depends on ONE MS of a Handful that have been discovered, so the "stupidity" lies with the writer of this text. Besides, in the last quarter of the 2nd Century, Irenaeus spoke to people whom spoke to The Seer face to face, which works out well with a compilation date of the 90's A.D. (otherwise, putting John The Presbyter as an "earlier" individual would put these witnesses beyond a normal aged life, and/or too old to speak that plain) - and he (Irenaeus) was playing "guessing games" as to "whom" or "what" the Antichrist IS, or WILL BE, so he is a witness that this game was not over;

                              Not to mention, there is MORE than just Irenaeus - there are others including Papias.

                              Like I said,
                              Food for thought... / Details for debate.

                              Here's some food for thought:
                              Spanish Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613)

                              The founding father of preterism - but even his students did not attempt to back date the compilation of Revelation - that came about from offshoots of the Alcazar / Preterist system - a new system as of the 16th / 17th Century, and RCC was well pleased.
                              "A text without context is a pretext."

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