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  • How could "Babylon" in Rev. 17-18 be 1st Century Rome?

    I wanted to pose a question for thought and discussion, as seen in the title of this thread:

    How could the concept of "Babylon" in Rev. 17-18 be referencing 1st Century Rome; conversely, how could the "scarlet beast" she is riding, who eventually betrays her in an alliance with ten kings who despise her, represent Nero, Domitian, or any other Roman Caesar up through 500 A.D.?

    The bulk of the evidence that Babylon = Rome and the scarlet beast = Nero comes from Rev. 13:18 and the appeal to gematria related to Nero's name as well as Rev. 17:3 & 9, related to appeals to royalty ("purple & scarlet", purple being the color of Caesar's sash denoting his station beginning with Julius Caesar) and location ("seven mountains", on which the woman sits).

    The problem is, interpreting Babylon to be Rome or even Jerusalem ignores the details of the narrative that the two chapters establish related to Babylon's fall; I believe it also severely diminishes the scope and impact of the Babylonian world "system" that the peoples of the earth have been knit to since Genesis 11. Even the phrase, "Babylon is fallen, fallen..." is an allusion to Isaiah 21, speaking of the fall of the literal city and not Rome or Jerusalem.

    There is a great mystery surrounding Babylon the Great - the "Mother of Harlots and of the abominations of the earth", and to pin such a charge on Rome greatly lessens the impact and scope of the title; to pin such a charge on Jerusalem itself is a monstrous charge against Judaism that, even as the spiritual leadership was corrupt from the time of the Hasmoneans to the destruction of Jerusalem would still seem to overestimate the impact of apostate Israel on the whole earth over its history in those days. It would also be too heinous a charge to level at the Catholic Church, despite the insistence of the Reformers.

    Finally, the details (which are too numerous to explore in this opening post) - if Babylon (and the Beast) = Rome and Nero Caesar, then what do we say about the "bowl" judgments and the manner in which they target that very same "scarlet beast" and his kingdom? Who were the ten kings that the emperor aligns with to betray the city - when did this happen? When was her unthinkable fall, one in which the whole earth mourns her passing? How is this fall related to the rejoicing in heaven that precedes the marriage supper of the Lamb?

    If Babylon = Jerusalem, how do we explain the interrelationship with Babylon and the beast? How does this "great city" reign over the kings of the earth? How does one explain the level of commerce and the relationship to the merchants and the power brokers of the earth? One would seemingly have to manipulate the narrative of 17:7-18 in ways that do not fit the historical narrative to relegate this passage to 1st century Jerusalem.

    OK, I'll stop there for now. I normally dislike long, difficult to follow OP's, but in this case, I couldn't help it.

    What do you think?
    The Rookie

    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

  • #2
    Secondarily, primarily spiritual interpretations that attribute the identity of Babylon to, say, New York City, Las Vegas, etc. have to answer to the narrative, descriptions, and title ascribed to Babylon as well as the heavenly celebration knit to the finality of the fall (and the timing related to the seventh bowl and the wedding supper of the lamb).

    Just a side note to, hopefully, discourage that interpretation.
    The Rookie

    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by the rookie View Post
      I wanted to pose a question for thought and discussion, as seen in the title of this thread:

      How could the concept of "Babylon" in Rev. 17-18 be referencing 1st Century Rome; conversely, how could the "scarlet beast" she is riding, who eventually betrays her in an alliance with ten kings who despise her, represent Nero, Domitian, or any other Roman Caesar up through 500 A.D.?

      The bulk of the evidence that Babylon = Rome and the scarlet beast = Nero comes from Rev. 13:18 and the appeal to gematria related to Nero's name as well as Rev. 17:3 & 9, related to appeals to royalty ("purple & scarlet", purple being the color of Caesar's sash denoting his station beginning with Julius Caesar) and location ("seven mountains", on which the woman sits).

      The problem is, interpreting Babylon to be Rome or even Jerusalem ignores the details of the narrative that the two chapters establish related to Babylon's fall; I believe it also severely diminishes the scope and impact of the Babylonian world "system" that the peoples of the earth have been knit to since Genesis 11. Even the phrase, "Babylon is fallen, fallen..." is an allusion to Isaiah 21, speaking of the fall of the literal city and not Rome or Jerusalem.

      There is a great mystery surrounding Babylon the Great - the "Mother of Harlots and of the abominations of the earth", and to pin such a charge on Rome greatly lessens the impact and scope of the title; to pin such a charge on Jerusalem itself is a monstrous charge against Judaism that, even as the spiritual leadership was corrupt from the time of the Hasmoneans to the destruction of Jerusalem would still seem to overestimate the impact of apostate Israel on the whole earth over its history in those days. It would also be too heinous a charge to level at the Catholic Church, despite the insistence of the Reformers.

      Finally, the details (which are too numerous to explore in this opening post) - if Babylon (and the Beast) = Rome and Nero Caesar, then what do we say about the "bowl" judgments and the manner in which they target that very same "scarlet beast" and his kingdom? Who were the ten kings that the emperor aligns with to betray the city - when did this happen? When was her unthinkable fall, one in which the whole earth mourns her passing? How is this fall related to the rejoicing in heaven that precedes the marriage supper of the Lamb?

      If Babylon = Jerusalem, how do we explain the interrelationship with Babylon and the beast? How does this "great city" reign over the kings of the earth? How does one explain the level of commerce and the relationship to the merchants and the power brokers of the earth? One would seemingly have to manipulate the narrative of 17:7-18 in ways that do not fit the historical narrative to relegate this passage to 1st century Jerusalem.

      OK, I'll stop there for now. I normally dislike long, difficult to follow OP's, but in this case, I couldn't help it.

      What do you think?
      Great questions!
      This also makes a Busy / popular debate!!
      LOL!!

      There's a lot of evidence to support The Beast of Revelation being Nero & the Roman Empire.
      Also, the woman riding the Beast, I interpret as "Apostate Israel" in the 1st century. (This belief coming from the wording of scripture, & the way the Bible has often referred to Israel.0

      There has been one point brought up in particular though, that I have to admit has me puzzled, & a bit stumped at the moment.
      (Thanks Clifton!! LOL!!)

      That being, John's reference to Antipas, in his letter to Pergamos....

      I can confidently dispute the dating of Revelation being around or after 92 AD concerning the other arguments frequently used... but this one still leaves me with more research & studying to do.

      I've run across some excellent articles that explainin the 10 kings, as well as the rest of the questions you brought up.
      (I'll have to find them & post the links in a bit.)

      That's all I got for now!!!

      Hebrews 11:1 Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
      _______________________________________________
      There was a time when I used to think Macro-evolution might be a possibility..... but then I GREW UP!
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Meike & I have the same birthday! Na-na na, na-na!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        What would be helpful is for you to study the articles and break down the passage, rather than posting it wholly. That way we can really examine the passages together and not be limited to the viewpoints expressed in a few articles. Also, it saves me from having to discuss this with guys that can't speak for themselves

        As I said, I am aware of the evidence, I just think that the evidence does not really answer these objections to Rome / Nero, which, to summarize, involve: the narrative, descriptions, and title ascribed to Babylon as well as the heavenly celebration knit to the finality of the fall (and the timing related to the seventh bowl and the wedding supper of the lamb).

        The woman being apostate Israel, as I stated, seems to grossly overestimate her world impact religiously, politically, and economically. One would also have to ignore the finality of Babylon's fall, Isaiah 21, and Jeremiah 50-51 as well as many other details of scripture related to Babylon and her relationship with the nations throughout history.

        In other words, one would have to seriously overlook the OT scriptural allusions that John is making throughout as well as the interpretations of those passages related to Babylon; the descriptive of Rev. 17-19:10 is of a city and a system or religious network with great influence and wealth that impacts the whole earth and births many offshoots.

        So again, my preference would be that you dialogue on the above rather than post an article in response, but I understand the difficulty of the subject matter.
        The Rookie

        Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

        Comment


        • #5
          I see:

          Beast = Rome
          Harlot = "Apostate" Israel

          The Beast is up for debate, I say, but the harlot I can only see as Biblically being an apostate Israel.

          In the OT, yes there was a literal Babylon with doom prophesied over it... but by John's time, the literal Babylon was nothing. However, in the OT, apostate Israel is often referred to as a "prostitute" or "harlot;" is the literal Babylon ever really called as such? The faithful followers of God are often identified as the Bride, and even the bride is mentioned late in the Revelation (the "city" of New Jerusalem is the "bride," so the city/bride is symbolic of the faithful in Christ). As I see, "apostate Jerusalem" (as opposed to faithful "new Jerusalem") is being compared to ancient nations who sinned greatly against God.

          The greatest support for this within the Revelation is in chapter 16, where we see Babylon called "the great city." Well, the first mentioning of any city is in chapter 11, the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt," where the "Lord was crucified." After that point, anytime a "city" is mentioned, it is simply called "the city," referring back to chapter 11's "great city." The "great city" (Jerusalem) is being compared to Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon. Babylon is relatively prominent in OT prophecy for its wickedness, so it could be that John is using "Babylon" as the moniker for apostate Jerusalem (representing "apostate Israel") because of the city's wickedness. How Jerusalem as Babylon is seen to "reign over the kings of the earth" is up for debate, but the Revelation itself specifically identifies Babylon with "the great city" where Christ was crucified, which we know was Jerusalem.
          To This Day

          Comment


          • #6
            Surely, Mark Edwards, if we are to accept the Old Testament precedent for calling apostate Israel a "harlot" we would also be forced to accept the Old Testament precedent for calling Babylon "Babylon"?

            In point of fact, I should think that if Babylon represents a more modern and symbolic avatar, then this harlot ought also to represent the unfaithful Church, both Jew and Gentile?

            While I personally see neither as attractive interpretations, I believe that this point stands strongly against your intent to turn unbelieving Israel into John's Scarlet Woman.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by the rookie View Post
              I wanted to pose a question for thought and discussion, as seen in the title of this thread:

              How could the concept of "Babylon" in Rev. 17-18 be referencing 1st Century Rome; conversely, how could the "scarlet beast" she is riding, who eventually betrays her in an alliance with ten kings who despise her, represent Nero, Domitian, or any other Roman Caesar up through 500 A.D.?

              The bulk of the evidence that Babylon = Rome and the scarlet beast = Nero comes from Rev. 13:18 and the appeal to gematria related to Nero's name as well as Rev. 17:3 & 9, related to appeals to royalty ("purple & scarlet", purple being the color of Caesar's sash denoting his station beginning with Julius Caesar) and location ("seven mountains", on which the woman sits).

              The problem is, interpreting Babylon to be Rome or even Jerusalem ignores the details of the narrative that the two chapters establish related to Babylon's fall; I believe it also severely diminishes the scope and impact of the Babylonian world "system" that the peoples of the earth have been knit to since Genesis 11. Even the phrase, "Babylon is fallen, fallen..." is an allusion to Isaiah 21, speaking of the fall of the literal city and not Rome or Jerusalem.

              There is a great mystery surrounding Babylon the Great - the "Mother of Harlots and of the abominations of the earth", and to pin such a charge on Rome greatly lessens the impact and scope of the title; to pin such a charge on Jerusalem itself is a monstrous charge against Judaism that, even as the spiritual leadership was corrupt from the time of the Hasmoneans to the destruction of Jerusalem would still seem to overestimate the impact of apostate Israel on the whole earth over its history in those days. It would also be too heinous a charge to level at the Catholic Church, despite the insistence of the Reformers.

              Finally, the details (which are too numerous to explore in this opening post) - if Babylon (and the Beast) = Rome and Nero Caesar, then what do we say about the "bowl" judgments and the manner in which they target that very same "scarlet beast" and his kingdom? Who were the ten kings that the emperor aligns with to betray the city - when did this happen? When was her unthinkable fall, one in which the whole earth mourns her passing? How is this fall related to the rejoicing in heaven that precedes the marriage supper of the Lamb?

              If Babylon = Jerusalem, how do we explain the interrelationship with Babylon and the beast? How does this "great city" reign over the kings of the earth? How does one explain the level of commerce and the relationship to the merchants and the power brokers of the earth? One would seemingly have to manipulate the narrative of 17:7-18 in ways that do not fit the historical narrative to relegate this passage to 1st century Jerusalem.

              OK, I'll stop there for now. I normally dislike long, difficult to follow OP's, but in this case, I couldn't help it.

              What do you think?
              Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

              I cannot think this is Apostate Israel, but Rome.
              The holy Roman Empire that sits on the Roman Empire.

              The saints and martyrs of Jesus have been throughout the ages by Rome and RCC.

              We also see that of the Four beasts, Babylon was defeated by the Persians, and the Persians were defeated by the Greeks, and the Greeks were defeated by the Romans.

              Question; who defeated the Romans?

              No one as yet. Rome has declined after being split into Eastern and Western (two legs of the image), by Diocletian who greatly persecuted Christians.
              It has not yet been defeated by another Empire, but;

              Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

              Comment


              • #8
                Bing,

                Are you making your second comeback since a year ago?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bing View Post
                  Surely, Mark Edwards, if we are to accept the Old Testament precedent for calling apostate Israel a "harlot" we would also be forced to accept the Old Testament precedent for calling Babylon "Babylon"?
                  Right, and don't forget the OT precedent that Egypt is Egypt and Sodom is Sodom, right? Yet John called "the great city" where Jesus was crucified as "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt," even though we know Jesus was crucified in neither Sodom nor Egypt. It is then equally likely, I'd say, that "the great city" is spiritually called Babylon as well.

                  Chapter 11
                  "The great city." It is called "Sodom and Egypt" spiritually (or "figuratively" or something similar, depending on your translation). It is the city where Christ was crucified. Though the direct name is not used, this can only be Jerusalem. The city is struck with an earthquake, seen to be God's wrath, followed by the victory cry for Christ as the King. We see flashing of lightning, thundering, rumbling, an earthquake, and a hailstorm to accompany this victory cry.

                  Chapter 14
                  Refers to "the city." The text assumes the reader know which city is the city. This is also the first chapter that "Babylon" is mentioned.

                  Chapter 16
                  "The city" is struck with an earthquake, seen to be God's wrath. The city here is directly identified as "Babylon." We see flashing of lightning, thundering, rumbling, an earthquake, and a hailstorm, to bring us parallel to chapter 11.

                  Chapter 17
                  The harlot Babylon is called "the great city."

                  Chapter 18
                  This city is the location of the deaths of "the prophets and the saints." Of course, Christians "saints" have died in all sorts of places, but the prophets? Matthew 5:12, 23:29-39, Luke 13:33-35. And following this is the victory cry for Christ as King (paralleling chapter 11).

                  When John sees a different angel, he explicitly states that he saw another angel. But throughout the whole text, he refers to only one "[great] city," which is directly identified as Egypt, Sodom, and Babylon, and the place of Christ's death.

                  In point of fact, I should think that if Babylon represents a more modern and symbolic avatar, then this harlot ought also to represent the unfaithful Church, both Jew and Gentile?
                  Well I would suppose that as well, though I should mention that I disagree with the "modern" aspect.
                  To This Day

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by markedward View Post
                    Right, and don't forget the OT precedent that Egypt is Egypt and Sodom is Sodom, right? Yet John called "the great city" where Jesus was crucified as "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt," even though we know Jesus was crucified in neither Sodom nor Egypt. It is then equally likely, I'd say, that "the great city" is spiritually called Babylon as well.

                    Chapter 11
                    "The great city." It is called "Sodom and Egypt" spiritually (or "figuratively" or something similar, depending on your translation). It is the city where Christ was crucified. Though the direct name is not used, this can only be Jerusalem. The city is struck with an earthquake, seen to be God's wrath, followed by the victory cry for Christ as the King. We see flashing of lightning, thundering, rumbling, an earthquake, and a hailstorm to accompany this victory cry.

                    Chapter 14
                    Refers to "the city." The text assumes the reader know which city is the city. This is also the first chapter that "Babylon" is mentioned.

                    Chapter 16
                    "The city" is struck with an earthquake, seen to be God's wrath. The city here is directly identified as "Babylon." We see flashing of lightning, thundering, rumbling, an earthquake, and a hailstorm, to bring us parallel to chapter 11.

                    Chapter 17
                    The harlot Babylon is called "the great city."

                    Chapter 18
                    This city is the location of the deaths of "the prophets and the saints." Of course, Christians "saints" have died in all sorts of places, but the prophets? Matthew 5:12, 23:29-39, Luke 13:33-35. And following this is the victory cry for Christ as King (paralleling chapter 11).

                    When John sees a different angel, he explicitly states that he saw another angel. But throughout the whole text, he refers to only one "[great] city," which is directly identified as Egypt, Sodom, and Babylon, and the place of Christ's death.

                    Well I would suppose that as well, though I should mention that I disagree with the "modern" aspect.
                    Again, I should point out that I was aware of these arguments before I posted - what I was hoping was that these arguments, which tend to be circumstantial at best, could be conclusively tied to the details of the passage as they are presented.

                    Either Rome or Jerusalem, both viewpoints seem to have large holes related to the narrative as it is presented as well as the descriptives given to this city / religious system that holds sway over the earth:

                    1. Religiously, both as an initiator and an example (the chief harlot and the "mother" of harlotry); thus we must say then that apostate Judaism is both an initiator of other copycats (though one would be hard pressed to point out who, where, and when) as well as an overarching example to many as the "great" example of religious harlotry. Catholic Rome may fit better but again, the scope historically doesn't seem to fit.

                    2. Economically, as a center of trade and commerce whose fall causes the merchants and tradesmen from nearby ports to mourn over the swiftness / unexpected suddenness of her fall (Jerusalem in 67-70 AD was neither sudden nor swift, particularly when one examines the decade long build-up to the main event; the details of Rome's fall don't fit the descriptive)

                    3. Militarily, with the power of the "scarlet beast" supporting her - I guess Jerusalem, if you stretch the details a bit, could maybe fit this descriptive but really? The relationship between the two in Rev 17 seems a bit cozier than the historic relationship between Jerusalem & Rome. Rome doesn't work well here either, as the analogy would be clumsy.

                    4. Politically, connected to all the kings of the earth (and the peoples) - here neither Rome nor Jerusalem fit quite right, as the Parthians didn't like Rome much (one of many examples); and nobody liked Jerusalem much. Still don't.

                    One still has the exultation of heaven celebrating the final fall of Babylon just prior to the wedding supper of the lamb as well as the "remembrance" of Babylon by God at the end of His judgments; why does heaven celebrate the fall of Babylon so enthusiastically if we are talking about Jerusalem as the "great city" in view? Is the Bible itself not a tale of two great cities not one?

                    I don't know that anyone has answered my questions definitively by finding cursory connections between passages and saying, "See? It's the same city throughout!" To do so, again, seems to ignore or shift key details in my book in a way that leaves me unsettled relating to the "mystery" that doesn't seem as clear as we would like it to be.
                    The Rookie

                    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Jerusalem will again play the harlot as Babylon
                      Does it really makes sense for one claiming to be God to set up in any other city?


                      The Whore

                      The bible only has spoken of one such city as a whore, Jerusalem.

                      Chapters which relate Jerusalem to being a WHORE.

                      Isaiah chapter 1
                      Jeremiah chapter 3
                      Ezekiel chapter 16
                      Hosea chapter 4

                      Rev. 17:16 - We see lovers will strip her, this is seen happening to Jerusalem in EZ 16:37.

                      Rev. 18: 4 - In addition, God called for “MY PEOPLE” to come out of this city and not be partakers of her sins. This reference is to those you will keep the commandments his people Israel.

                      Rev. 18:6 – This woman is rewarded double for her iniquity. This “double” punishment is seen to Jerusalem in Isaiah 4:2 and Jer. 16:18, 17:18.

                      Rev. 18:7 - She denies that she is a whore and a widow, Jerusalem is described as a widow in Lam 1:1.

                      Rev. 18:22, 23 – We see that the LIGHT OF A CANDLE and the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and SOUNS OF MILLSTONES shall be heard no more out from this city. This event is seen occurring to Jerusalem in Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11.

                      Rev. 18:24 - We see found in her the slain of the prophets. Matt 23:37 states JERUSALEM kills the prophets, no other city.


                      In Christ, Mark.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        No-one has replied to Partaker , I really believe that what he says is true. The Roman Empire and the RCC represent the Harlot , all spoken of the harlot fits in perfectly , and the method of Rome's destruction is still a future prophecy that has not as yet been fulfilled , therefore we don't need to compare the past fall of Rome to prophecy about the fall of Babylon , the RCC is more powerful than we think and in many ways controls earth politically , through various strategies , the world bank included. Whenever the world bank loans to countries , that country is forced to follow certain economic and military strategies to get the loan. In democratic countries the manipulation is the normal method of funding and supporting the party whose agenda is most similar to your own , the RCC's agenda being world unity and co-operation , and regionalisation.

                        I believe that Israel is the final manifestation of the beast , that final little horn that rises up AFTER the earth has been regionalised into ten political regions at the end. Note that the beast is represented by seven heads (heads represent political empires that dominate the middle east and the Meditteranean) which are consecutive. When Revelation was written only five empires had existed in history tht dominated here , namely Egypt , Assyria , Babylon , Persia , Greece (5 WERE). Rome existed at that time , yet the bible says only one more empire would exist before the rising of the little horn (the small country) that would rule earth. History shows us that this last head of the seven heads is the RCC ,who although it appeared to have a fatal wound during the reformation and conquering of Napolean , has risen up again to take its place of world political prominence. The RCC is setting up the ten regions of earth which in turn will give their power to the little horn , the beast, Israel. The final AC will set up his rule in Israel and reign from there , and will be in Israel defending Israel (not attacking Israel as some mistakenly interpret) at the final battle.

                        At the moment there are 3 main political factions preventing the unity of earth , Israel is desperately protecting itself by keeping its political hold over the USA , and keeping its fingers in the political affairs of the EU , mainly through the UK. The RCC is competing strongly in the USA but not quite able to wrest control from the Jews. The RCC controls the EU , South America , and many individual countries throughout earth. The Moslems control most of the Middle East and Africa with inroads into the EU , and massive support from Russia and its allies. I would guess China allies with Russia , yet Japan and India with the USA , India needing a non-Moslem support structure against its hostile Moslem neighbours.

                        How to reconcile these three powerhouses? You get the false prophet (Moslem religion) to support a coming king , who is Jewish , yet conforms to the Christian expectation of a returning Messiah , resulting in earth being run from Israel by an AC , looking very much like the predicted future of a period of peace ruled from Israel that the bible predicts.

                        Practically this is impossible to organise unless firstly the earth is regionalised into ten easy to control governments , not hundreds as it is today. That is why the RCC is regionalising earth at the moment , encouraging all countries throughout earth to join together into commercial economic and political zones.

                        In summary , harlot is Rome , the beast will be Israel when Rome sets it all up to gain world peace. At the moment the RCC and Israel are two competing world factions , neither able to dominate the other , but the RCC has a unifying strategy based on religious manipulation.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by the rookie View Post
                          I wanted to pose a question for thought and discussion, as seen in the title of this thread:

                          how could the "scarlet beast" she is riding, who eventually betrays her in an alliance with ten kings who despise her,
                          I pose this question of this part of your OP.

                          If you are referring to this verse--

                          Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.


                          How do you identify this whore as being Babylon the mother of harlots, when the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth is a spirit which the beast loves, which love is not diminished until the end of the beast when the great city is burnt by fire and not burnt by the ten kings.

                          Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to naught. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
                          Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What cityis like unto this great city!
                          Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

                          Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
                          Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
                          Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
                          Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, everystone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


                          Such a destruction certainly can not be upon the whole world, but is confined to the Kingdom of Babylon and can be quite extensive but not all of the world--


                          Isa 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
                          Isa 14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
                          Merton.
                          One can know a lot about the Bible and still not live righteously. Mat ch 23.

                          A little knowledge lived rightly is better that much knowledge lived wrongly.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DurbanDude View Post
                            I believe that Israel is the final manifestation of the beast , that final little horn that rises up AFTER the earth has been regionalised into ten political regions at the end. The RCC is setting up the ten regions of earth which in turn will give their power to the little horn , the beast, Israel. The final AC will set up his rule in Israel and reign from there , and will be in Israel defending Israel (not attacking Israel as some mistakenly interpret) at the final battle.
                            In summary , harlot is Rome , the beast will be Israel when Rome sets it all up to gain world peace. At the moment the RCC and Israel are two competing world factions , neither able to dominate the other , but the RCC has a unifying strategy based on religious manipulation.
                            In reading Daniel 7, He seems to indicate that the little horn is a person, a 'He' who rises amongst the 10 other horns, (10 kings/rulers) and uproots three of them, leaving seven + Himself.
                            He rises out of Daniels forth beast kingdom, the Roman empire. How can this be referring to the nation of Israel?

                            I believe the little horn to be the Antichrist who rules from Jerusalem, where He is defeated upon Christs return.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by markedward View Post
                              Right, and don't forget the OT precedent that Egypt is Egypt and Sodom is Sodom, right? Yet John called "the great city" where Jesus was crucified as "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt," even though we know Jesus was crucified in neither Sodom nor Egypt. It is then equally likely, I'd say, that "the great city" is spiritually called Babylon as well.

                              Chapter 11
                              "The great city." It is called "Sodom and Egypt" spiritually (or "figuratively" or something similar, depending on your translation). It is the city where Christ was crucified. Though the direct name is not used, this can only be Jerusalem.
                              Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem. He was crucified outside the city gates.

                              10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. - Hebrews 13:10-14

                              Babylon encompasses far more than just Jerusalem. The whore "sits upon many waters", which represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.". That does not describe Jerusalem.

                              Eric

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