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  • Tithing

    My question is that I haven't started tithing because i can't find in the bible where tithing was meant for us gentiles. Jesus is always talking about tithing when he is speaking to Israelites. Also in none of the apostles letters to the churches do they mention tithing. And according to the Law of tithing, tithing was meant for the use of helping widows and taking care of the orphans. And i don't see my church doing either, instead i see my church building a bigger and prettier temple with more basketball courts to attract more younger people to join the church and a bigger parking lot. Oh and the pastor now drives a mercedes. I don't see how that is gods purpose for his money. How can you teach to tithe, yet not follow the law of tithing?

  • #2
    Originally posted by j79k2000 View Post
    My question is that I haven't started tithing because i can't find in the bible where tithing was meant for us gentiles. Jesus is always talking about tithing when he is speaking to Israelites. Also in none of the apostles letters to the churches do they mention tithing. And according to the Law of tithing, tithing was meant for the use of helping widows and taking care of the orphans. And i don't see my church doing either, instead i see my church building a bigger and prettier temple with more basketball courts to attract more younger people to join the church and a bigger parking lot. Oh and the pastor now drives a mercedes. I don't see how that is gods purpose for his money. How can you teach to tithe, yet not follow the law of tithing?
    The real heart and soul of the old tithing law was that God wants us to put him first in our lives. This principal transferrs to the New Covenant, Christians put aside a certain (undefined) amount as they could afford for God's work. In the first and second centuries people met in homes, which meant that there was no overhead as it was done with the hospitality of the women in the Church. The home has always been the domain of the women - and still is. (I know - just yesterday I told my wife we should modify the kitchen and she disagreed - end of subject).

    Justyn Martyr left a description of an early Church assembly and he said that collections were made from the wealthy and the willing to distribute to the widows and the poor. There was no tithe in the church until the forth century after the Church had been taken out of the hands of the women and transferred to the men - when the Church started buying real estate.

    Larry

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    • #3
      Originally posted by j79k2000 View Post
      My question is that I haven't started tithing because i can't find in the bible where tithing was meant for us gentiles. Jesus is always talking about tithing when he is speaking to Israelites. Also in none of the apostles letters to the churches do they mention tithing. And according to the Law of tithing, tithing was meant for the use of helping widows and taking care of the orphans. And i don't see my church doing either, instead i see my church building a bigger and prettier temple with more basketball courts to attract more younger people to join the church and a bigger parking lot. Oh and the pastor now drives a mercedes. I don't see how that is gods purpose for his money. How can you teach to tithe, yet not follow the law of tithing?
      You will find debate after debate on this forum about this subject. I will give you my side of the debate and I'm sure the other side will jump right in and give you theirs.

      I believe that the Law was done away with when Jesus cried "It is finished". Tithing was one of those laws. The word literally means "tenth". The NT teaches giving but it is NOT the structured system of the OT. Many churches teach the 10% thing and I strongly disagree with this teaching. Not because giving is wrong but because they make the person feel like that is the only way to submit yourself to God and that is wrong! They make such a big deal out of it that if the person can't give 10% then they feel like they have sinned and that is wrong as well! Have you ever wondered what the older teaching were on tithing? I did and started to study it a little. John Wesley didn't teach 10%. He actually taught the opposite of it! Here is part of his Sermon #50. It is long but a good interesting read...

      THREE PRINCIPALS OF CHRISTIAN PRUDENCE FROM THE USE OF MONEY JOHN WESLEY’S SERMON #50
      I. GAIN ALL YOU CAN
      1. The first of these is (he that hears, let him understand!) "Gain all you can." Here we may speak like the children of the world: We meet them on their own ground. And it is our bounden duty to do this: We ought to gain all we can gain, without buying gold too dear, without paying more for it than it is worth. But this it is certain we ought not to do; we ought not to gain money at the expense of life, or (which is in effect the same thing) at the expense of our health.
      2. We are, Secondly, to gain all we can without hurting our mind any more than our body. For neither may we hurt this. We must preserve, at all events, the spirit of a healthful mind. Therefore we may not engage or continue in any sinful trade that is contrary to the law of God, or of our country. None therefore can here determine for another; but every man must judge for himself, and abstain from whatever he in particular finds to be hurtful to his soul.
      3. We are. Thirdly, to gain all we can without hurting our neighbor. But this we may not, cannot do, if we love our neighbor as ourselves. We cannot, if we love everyone as ourselves, hurt anyone in his substance. We cannot devour the increase of his lands, and perhaps the lands and houses themselves, by gaming, by overgrown bills (whether on account of physic, or law, or anything else,) or by requiring or taking such interest as even the laws of our country forbid. None can gain by swallowing up his neighbor's substance, without gaining the damnation of hell!
      II. SAVE ALL YOU CAN
      1. After having gained all you can, by honest wisdom and unwearied diligence, the second rule of Christian prudence is," Save all you can." Do not throw the precious talent into the sea: Leave that folly to heathen philosophers. Do not throw it away in idle expenses, which is just the same as throwing it into the sea. Expend no part of it merely to gratify the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eye, or the pride of life.
      III. GIVE ALL YOU CAN
      1. But let not any man imagine that he has done anything, barely by going thus far, by "gaining and saving all he can," if he were to stop here. All this is nothing, if a man doesn’t go forward, if he does not point all this at a farther end. Nor, indeed, can a man properly be said to save anything, if he only lays it up. You may as well throw your money into the sea, as bury it in the earth. Not to use, is effectually to throw it away. If, therefore, you would indeed "make yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness," add the Third rule to the two preceding. Having, first, gained all you can, and, secondly saved all you can, then "give all you can."
      2. In order to see the ground and reason of this, consider, when the Possessor of heaven and earth brought you into being, and placed you in this world, he placed you here not as a proprietor, but a steward: As such he entrusted you, for a season, with goods of various kinds; but the sole property of these still rests in him, nor can be alienated from him. As you yourself are not your own, but his, such is, likewise, all that you enjoy. Such is your soul and your body, not your own, but God's. And so is your substance in particular. And he has told you, in the most clear and express terms, how you are to employ it for him, in such a manner, that it may be all an holy sacrifice, acceptable through Christ Jesus. And this light, easy service, he has promised to reward with an eternal weight of glory.
      3. The directions which God has given us, touching the use of our worldly substance, may be comprised in the following particulars. If you desire to be a faithful and a wise steward, out of that portion of your Lord's goods which he has for the present lodged in your hands, but with the right of resuming whenever it pleases him, First, provide things needful for yourself; food to eat, raiment to put on, whatever nature moderately requires for preserving the body in health and strength. Secondly, provide these for your wife, your children, your servants, or any others who pertain to your household. If when this is done there be an excess left, then "do good to them that are of the household of faith." If there be an excess still, "as you have opportunity, do good unto all men." In so doing, you give all you can; nay, in a sound sense, all you have: For all that is laid out in this manner is really given to God. You "render unto God the things that are God's," not only by what you give to the poor, but also by that which you expend in providing things needful for yourself and your household.
      4. If, then, a doubt should at any time arise in your mind concerning what you are going to expend, either on yourself or any part of your family, you have an easy way to remove it. Calmly and seriously inquire, "(1.) In expending this, am I acting according to my character? Am I acting accordingly, not as a proprietor, but as a steward of my Lord's goods? (2.) Am I doing this in obedience to his Word? In what Scripture does he require me so to do? (3.) Can I offer up this action, this expense, as a sacrifice to God through Jesus Christ? (4.) Have I reason to believe that for this very work I shall have a reward at the resurrection of the just?" You will seldom need anything more to remove any doubt which arises on this head; but by this four-fold consideration you will receive clear light as to the way wherein you should go.
      5. If any doubt still remains, you may farther examine yourself by prayer according to those heads of inquiry. Try whether you can say to the Searcher of hearts, your conscience not condemning you, "Lord, you see I am going to expend this sum on that food, apparel, furniture. And you know, I act herein with a single eye as a steward of thy goods, expending this portion of them thus in pursuance of the design you are entrusting me with them. You know I do this in obedience to the Lord, as you command, and because you command it. Let this, I beseech thee, be a holy sacrifice, acceptable through Jesus Christ! And give me a witness in myself that for this labor of love I shall have recompense when you reward every man according to his works." Now if your conscience bears you witness in the Holy Ghost that this prayer is well-pleasing to God, then have you no reason to doubt but that expense is right and good, and such as will never make you ashamed.
      6. You see the nature and extent of truly Christian prudence so far as it relates to the use of that great talent, money. Gain all you can, without hurting either yourself or your neighbor, in soul or body, by applying hereto with unintermitted diligence, and with all the understanding which God has given you; -- Save all you can, by cutting off every expense which serves only to indulge foolish desire; to gratify either the desire of flesh, the desire of the eye, or the pride of life; waste nothing, living or dying, on sin or folly, whether for yourself or your children; -- and then, give all you can, or, in other words, give all you have to God. Do not stint yourself, like a Jew rather than a Christian, to this or that proportion. "Render unto God," not a tenth, not a third, not half, but all that is God's, be it more or less; by employing all on yourself, your household, the household of faith, and all mankind, in such a manner, that you may give a good account of your stewardship when ye can be no longer stewards; in such a manner as the oracles of God direct, both by general and particular precepts; in such a manner, that whatever ye do may be "a sacrifice of a sweet-smelling saviour to God," and that every act may be rewarded in that day when the Lord cometh with all his saints.

      I come from a small town in WV and you do not hear the tithing message preached. Why do you think that is?? Why would you preach a message to a group of poor folks that have a hard time just making it from one pay check to another. It is the same crowd Wesley was preaching to. People who were under paid and over taxed and the last thing they needed to hear was how they needed to give 10% to get close to God. There are many different ways to serve God!

      The NT says this about giving...

      2 Cor. 9
      7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

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      • #4
        I agree that the 10 percent rule no longer applies to us. We should give what we can afford to give. You don't want to put your power bill or rent or grocery money at risk obviously...especially if you have a family to support. But if you find that you have an extra ten bucks in your pocket that is not needed to pay a bill or buy food, then drop it into the plate. Some people can afford to give 10 percent, many cannot. The main thing is to be a cheerful giver, not a giver that feels coerced into giving a pre-set amount. Give back to God because you want to, not because you feel you have to.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by j79k2000 View Post
          My question is that I haven't started tithing because i can't find in the bible where tithing was meant for us gentiles. Jesus is always talking about tithing when he is speaking to Israelites. Also in none of the apostles letters to the churches do they mention tithing. And according to the Law of tithing, tithing was meant for the use of helping widows and taking care of the orphans. And i don't see my church doing either, instead i see my church building a bigger and prettier temple with more basketball courts to attract more younger people to join the church and a bigger parking lot. Oh and the pastor now drives a mercedes. I don't see how that is gods purpose for his money. How can you teach to tithe, yet not follow the law of tithing?
          Today's churches are scumbags. They make light of the laws of God.

          It's better off that you skip Church and actually get some edumucation from the Bible leaves themselves.

          Sounds like your trying to apply what you find. That's better than going to most churches today who support evil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Chachynga View Post
            Today's churches are scumbags. They make light of the laws of God.

            It's better off that you skip Church and actually get some edumucation from the Bible leaves themselves.

            Sounds like your trying to apply what you find. That's better than going to most churches today who support evil.
            I disagree; in the words of Augustine, "The church may be a whore, but it's still my mother". Now, the church is still Christs church, and whether or not we agree with its practices. . .It's still Christ's church. Furthermore; we make up the church, so if there's a problem with it, we have a hand in the responsibility.

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            • #7
              I am new here but I'll jump in with both feet. The Bible does not swing to the left sometimes and then swing to the right - it goes right down the center all contained within the pages of what was written. I don't believe the versions to be changed. It clearly states that we are to give 10% of our first fruits. Plain and simple.

              I believe to obey the Lord. Pay him first, then pay yourself and then pay your bills. I know there are those living paycheck to paycheck but I'd wager that they never have tried tithing to see what God can really do.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by CarolP View Post
                I am new here but I'll jump in with both feet. The Bible does not swing to the left sometimes and then swing to the right - it goes right down the center all contained within the pages of what was written. I don't believe the versions to be changed. It clearly states that we are to give 10% of our first fruits. Plain and simple.

                I believe to obey the Lord. Pay him first, then pay yourself and then pay your bills. I know there are those living paycheck to paycheck but I'd wager that they never have tried tithing to see what God can really do.
                Welcome to the forums

                I agree that the Bible doesn't swing both ways but there are many passages in the NT that talks about the Law of the OT being done away with. I will give you just a few from a Man (Jesus) who knew exactly what was meant...

                Matt. 5 (The Sermon on the Mount)
                Murder

                21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

                23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
                25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. Adultery

                27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
                Divorce

                31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
                Oaths

                33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
                An Eye for an Eye

                38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
                Love for Enemies

                43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

                These things were a certain way in the OT and He changed them in the NT.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
                  I disagree; in the words of Augustine, "The church may be a whore, but it's still my mother". Now, the church is still Christs church, and whether or not we agree with its practices. . .It's still Christ's church. Furthermore; we make up the church, so if there's a problem with it, we have a hand in the responsibility.
                  No. That is SO wrong.
                  One church is an organisation- manmade and dead.
                  The other church is a body- spirit-filled and alive!

                  I love ALL people who ARE the church but hate the mentallity and inforcements that bind people to the church organisation that is dead.
                  I get really angry and have very little tolerance to those who believe they 'run' church. I disagree with them but I don't hate them. I feel sorry for them- they are victims usually of the organisation they originally created by accident. These people are dangerous and need to be removed- even if they think they own it (they don't!). It's for their own good and for the sake of the body's well being. No man should have to bear their load or be tempted to wield such authority over other people.
                  Nothing more. Nothing less.
                  My faith in Christ is righteousness!
                  Jesus came to save us, His Spirit to change us.
                  Christ covers OUR imperfection with HIS perfection!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It is written

                    The Law of Tithing (as given to Moses)
                    1. Only land owners that were growing crops or raising cattle had to tithe. The only thing acceptable as a tithing offering were agricultural products like corn, wine, strong drinks, oil, tithe of the herd or of the flock (lambs, sheep, goats, etc..). (see Deu 14:23,26; 2Chr 31:6; Neh 10:37; Neh 13:5,12)
                    2. Carpenters were not required to tithe 10% of their income. Money was not accepted as a tithing offering.
                    3. The poor people that did not own any land could not tithe.
                    4. The Israelites had to give 10 % of their land products to the Levites because they did not have land as an inheritance, they had the Lord as their inheritance and the poor and needy (widows, fatherless, newcomers to the land). Tithing was part of God’s welfare program. (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13).
                    5. The poor did not give tithe, the poor received the tithe (Deu 12:29; Deu 14:28-29; Deu 26:12-13).
                    6. The tithing for the poor had to be placed at the entrance of the cities in Israel where the Levites and the poor will come to collect it (Deu 14:28-29).
                    7. The tithing offering for the Levite was only acceptable by God when it was presented to the Levites in the Temple of God in Jerusalem (Deu 12:5-6,11,18; Deu 14:23).
                    8. If the Jews lived too far from Jerusalem, they were allowed to turn their tithe into money (to eliminate traveling with produce and animals). But they had to turn the money into agricultural products so that they could be eaten before the Lord in his Temple. (Deu 14:24-26)
                    9. Because they had to bring their tithes to the Temple in Jerusalem, God did not make it a burden to travel every week or every month to bring the tithe. Instead, he told the Israelites that they had to bring their tithes once every 3 years. That year was called the year of tithing (see Deu 14:28; Deu 26:12; Amos 4:4).
                    10. If the people failed to bring in their tithes in the year of tithing, they were commanded by the law to bring them back the next year of tithing (3 years later) with 20 percent interest. To be financially accurate, twenty percent interest every 3 years translates to 6.3 % interest per year or 0.12 % interest per week.
                    11. The tithe or the 10th part of the agricultural products in Israel belonged to the Lord. The Lord in turn, gave what belonged to him to the Levite and the poor. (Lev 27:30; Num 18:24; Deu 26:12; Neh 13:5; Mal 3:8-10)
                    12. The tithe was defined as the tenth part (the last 10th, not the first 10th ). If a man had 39 sheep born in his farm, he owed 3 sheep as his tithes, not 4.
                    13. The Law of God required the Levites to give a tenth of the tithes that they received back unto the Lord. (Num 18:26). This had to be the best of the tithe and the Levite had to give it to the priests that ministered in the Temple (for their consumption).
                    Because the Temple is no longer in place in Jerusalem and there are no Levites running a priesthood anymore, the laws connected with the Levitical priesthood and the Temple are no longer in effect. Those laws are gone with the temple and the priesthood. The law of tithing is part of that group. Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13 and 1 Jo 3:4 say that where there is no law there is no transgression and sin cannot be inputted where there is no law. Because of that, since the Temple was destroyed and the Levitical priesthood disappeared, no one is robbing God of anything when people fail to bring their tithes (their agricultural products to the Levites in the Temple). Furthermore, Colossians 2:14 and Eph 2:15 reiterate that Jesus removed those laws when he was nailed to the cross.
                    Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
                    Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace.

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                    • #11
                      A different perspective?

                      I pay about thirty-five percent of what I earn to the government much of which goes to welfare programs that feed and house the poor. The OT act of tithing did the same thing namely because the Jewish laws were their government. So basically they were paying to the government of the day. No different than my taxes today.

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                      • #12
                        OH Yeah!

                        I'm willing to bet that more of my tax money goes to feed and house the poor than my tithes to most churches would.

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                        • #13
                          This is something i have wrestle with for sometime and i am still not quite sure. I read the new testament on this and didn't find anything saying we are still bind by this 10%.

                          What i did find in the new testament is that you are to give to the church to pay its ministers etc. This can be 10%, 20% or 100%, but no specific figure is given.

                          i am always a bit worried when persons are meant to feel guilty about giving from a position which can only be supported from the old testament. Remember what happen to the husband and wife team in the new testament who gave unwillingly to the church.

                          But bear in mine, however, that great blessings can come from giving to the church, especially when you give it with a good heart.
                          Psa 122:1 I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.

                          Daily Christian News and Events

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                          • #14
                            these sermons helped me:

                            listen to "triumph Q & A". the best teaching i have ever heard

                            http://www.walkintheword.com/broadcast.aspx

                            God bless,
                            Todd
                            FORGIVEN!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mikebr View Post
                              I pay about thirty-five percent of what I earn to the government much of which goes to welfare programs that feed and house the poor. The OT act of tithing did the same thing namely because the Jewish laws were their government. So basically they were paying to the government of the day. No different than my taxes today.
                              Wow. I hadn't really thought of that! Thanks for the insight.

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