Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Validity of Paul's Gospel to Gentiles

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Validity of Paul's Gospel to Gentiles

    Our family are in the middle of reading a book entitled 'Islam and Christianity', wanting to learn the differences between the two beliefs.
    Unfortunately the book was written from a Muslim's perspective but he raises an interesting claim.

    He claims that the Apostles and Jesus' brothers were deceived by the teachings of Paul. What did Paul teach them?
    Paul taught them his Gospel of Grace and his Gospel of Glory- these gospels to the gentiles and believers.

    Now this writer states that's why Gabriel appeared to Mohammad. What biblical proof is there that what he preaches in his epistles or in Acts is scriptural? Revelations and the entire new testament will be ruled out because these gospels and letters (except James), were written after the Jerusalem Church meeting.

    Any old testament prophecy? Any commands from Moses? Anything teachings through the Law?

    We as a whole are fairly stumped. The question also had us all stumped at our Bible Study.

    So to all you scholars and theologians, figure this one out. I'll be reading that comes up. The question I am simply asking is:

    How can we prove that the Apostles and Jesus' brothers were not deceived by the teachings of Paul and what he preached? How can we know that Paul wasn't tricked or thought this was the ideal way to try to kill the movement of Christianity?
    Nothing more. Nothing less.
    My faith in Christ is righteousness!
    Jesus came to save us, His Spirit to change us.
    Christ covers OUR imperfection with HIS perfection!!!

  • #2
    Well I guess the only anwser is that, read what JESUS said in: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. If JESUS says stuff that supports Paul and his claims then we know that Paul taught the truth. And Paul bases everything he writes on JESUS CHRIST and realizes that he cannot do anything without GOD.

    Plus if a musilum wrote it I do not know if you would want to believe it because it is probably bias. I do not know though because I do not know the claims that he is making.

    But go and compair what JESUS said to what Paul claims, what GOD said through Paul.
    9For zeal for Your house has consumed me,
    And the reproaches of those who reproach You have fallen on me.
    Psalm 69:9

    4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
    James 4:4

    19 You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder
    James 2:19

    "5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Genesis 6:5

    Comment


    • #3
      It makes sense to do that. But what Paul preaches is exactly quite opposite to what Jesus teaches.
      Jesus taught under Law. Paul taught outside of the Law. Paul teaches the 'mysteries' and says we are not bound by Jewish Law! Thats quite a claim.
      The Muslim writer highlights this. Before we even read this mans book, we knew that Paul and Jesus taught different things.

      Jesus didn't teach what happened after Calvary nor did any of Jesus' disciples. They were preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom and then teaching Jews how to live under and according to the Law of Moses.

      Paul didn't. Paul preached what the Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross- onwards. Then continued teaching us who we are in Christ.

      This Muslim man raises a valid point. Sorry to throw what you said back in your face.
      Nothing more. Nothing less.
      My faith in Christ is righteousness!
      Jesus came to save us, His Spirit to change us.
      Christ covers OUR imperfection with HIS perfection!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        This is just typical anti-Pauline propaganda. It is the first step in discrediting Christianity. It's a typical tactic by non-Christians. I suggest not reading that book any further and accepting the words of scripture:

        Act 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
        27 But Barnabas took him, and brought [him] to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that He had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus


        Any Christian is already a disciple of Christ. Paul WAS/IS a disciple. Sure, he tried to join with the other disciples and they at first didn't want him but that doesn't affect his discipleship, or ours. Now, an Apostle is a different matter.
        652
        652 apostolos {ap-os'-tol-os}
        from 649; TDNT - 1:407,67; n m
        AV - apostle 78, messenger 2, he that is sent 1; 81
        1) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
        1a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
        1b) in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
        1b1) of Barnabas
        1b2) of Timothy and Silvanus

        This isnt something that anyone can simply make themselves. God has to choose you and make you an Apostle.

        Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

        Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)
        Paul was called by Christ to be an Apostle, and Paul was a disciple as well.


        Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
        Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
        Acts 9:12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
        Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
        Acts 9:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
        Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

        Here Peter makes very clear that Paul is a "chosen vessel unto" God.


        Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
        Peter writes that Paul was filled with the Holy (ghost) Spirit and if God felt Paul deserved that then who are we to deny it?

        Acts 14:8 And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
        Acts 14:9 The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,
        Acts 14:10 Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
        Here through the power of the HS, Paul heals a cripple who never walked in his life.

        Acts 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,
        Here Peter calls Paul an Apostle.
        Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, the One raising Him from the dead,

        Called an Apostle again.

        Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
        Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
        Credit for the miracles was given to God, being accomplished through Paul and Barnabas.

        Acts 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
        Acts 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

        Peter writes of Paul having a vision from the Lord.

        Acts 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
        Paul casts out a demon in Christs name, and the demon is cast out.

        Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
        Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
        Peter writes that Paul preached Christ died and rose from the dead.

        Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
        Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
        Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
        Yet another miracle God worked through Paul.

        Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
        Acts 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

        Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
        Here Christ says that Paul will be made a minister.

        2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
        2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
        2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
        2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
        2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

        Its pretty clear how peter feels about "our beloved brother Paul". Peter speaks of those who wrest and struggle to understand Pauls writings and wisdom, struggling unto their own destruction. Take care not to repeat their mistakes.

        2Pe 3:16
        (ALT) as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these [things], in which are some [things] difficult to be understood, which the untaught and unstable twist [fig., distort] to their own destruction, as [they do] also the rest of [the] Scriptures.
        (ASV) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
        (BBE) And as he said in all his letters, which had to do with these things; in which are some hard sayings, so that, like the rest of the holy Writings, they are twisted by those who are uncertain and without knowledge, to the destruction of their souls.
        (CEV) Paul talks about these same things in all his letters, but part of what he says is hard to understand. Some ignorant and unsteady people even destroy themselves by twisting what he said. They do the same thing with other Scriptures too.
        (Darby) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; among which some things are hard to be understood, which the untaught and ill-established wrest, as also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
        (DRB) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
        (EMTV) as also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
        (GB) As one, that in all his Epistles speaketh of these thinges: among the which some thinges are hard to be vnderstand, which they that are vnlearned and vnstable, wrest, as they do also other Scriptures vnto their owne destruction.
        (GNB) This is what he says in all his letters when he writes on the subject. There are some difficult things in his letters which ignorant and unstable people explain falsely, as they do with other passages of the Scriptures. So they bring on their own destruction.
        (GW) He talks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in his letters are hard to understand. Ignorant people and people who aren't sure of what they believe distort what Paul says in his letters the same way they distort the rest of the Scriptures. These people will be destroyed.
        (HNV) as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those, there are some things that are hard understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
        (ISV) He speaks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in them are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort to their own destruction, as they do the rest of the Scriptures.
        (KJV) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
        (KJVA) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
        (LITV) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
        (MKJV) as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).
        (MSG) refers to this in all his letters, and has written you essentially the same thing. Some things Paul writes are difficult to understand. Irresponsible people who don't know what they are talking about twist them every which way. They do it to the rest of the Scriptures, too, destroying themselves as they do it.
        (WEB) as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
        (Webster) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
        (WNT) That is what he says in all his letters, when speaking in them of these things. In those letters there are some statements hard to understand, which ill-taught and unprincipled people pervert, just as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own ruin.
        (YLT) as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, among which things are certain hard to be understood, which the untaught and unstable do wrest, as also the other Writings, unto their own destruction.


        Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

        Those rejecting whom He sent to reveal His Word and the message of the kingdom is one of the most outright evidences we have of the apostasy, or falling away from the true Word of God, we are told will come before that man of sin is revealed. This is part of the affliction that those who belong to Him have to endure during this time...seeing His truth rejected and spoken evil of because the Light of that truth has revealed the sin within the one who has rejected it.
        This rejection of Paul as a chosen vessel of the Master has been going on for some time. If they have called His Word evil, how much more will they call evil the ones who witness for Him??

        Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
        Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
        1Peter 3:15
        (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by joztok View Post
          How can we prove that the Apostles and Jesus' brothers were not deceived by the teachings of Paul and what he preached? How can we know that Paul wasn't tricked or thought this was the ideal way to try to kill the movement of Christianity?
          Well, simply because. . . James and Peter taught Paul his Gospel. How could Paul go around and begin deceiving them, especially since he returned to them on at least one occasion to make sure his Gospel was correct?

          You see, in 1 Corinthians 15:1-5 we read. . .

          Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved,if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

          Now the question is, where did Paul first receive this Gospel? Well, firstly in Galatians 1:18-19;

          Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas (Peter), and stayed with him fifteen days. But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother.

          Now, 'stayed with' is quite a misnomer. Being with them for fifteen days, he asked them about Christ, the crucifixion, resurrection etc. (Paul had seen the resurrected Christ a few verses prior).

          We then move again into Galatians 2:1-2;

          Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.

          Paul had submitted the Gospel he was teaching (1 Corinthians 15); the one he had learned from Peter and James (Galatians 1:18) to make sure that he wasn't running in vain (in other words, mistaken!; Galatians 2:2).

          There is simply no reason to believe that Paul was deceiving the other Apostles.

          Originally posted by joztok View Post
          It makes sense to do that. But what Paul preaches is exactly quite opposite to what Jesus teaches.
          Jesus taught under Law. Paul taught outside of the Law. Paul teaches the 'mysteries' and says we are not bound by Jewish Law! Thats quite a claim.
          The Muslim writer highlights this. Before we even read this mans book, we knew that Paul and Jesus taught different things.

          Jesus didn't teach what happened after Calvary nor did any of Jesus' disciples. They were preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom and then teaching Jews how to live under and according to the Law of Moses.

          Paul didn't. Paul preached what the Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross- onwards. Then continued teaching us who we are in Christ.

          This Muslim man raises a valid point. Sorry to throw what you said back in your face.
          This is a 'kinda' misunderstanding; but before we get into this (if at all we do), let's resolve the initial reason for this thread first.

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks Naphal! That really 'kinda' helps.
            And thanks for your concern too.
            You need not worry about me erring, I'm intrigued though how we can disprove this claim.
            The Holy Spirit being evident in Paul's ministry does help prove he is not false. However I'm looking for more doctrinal proof in the Old Testament to support what He says or endorse the 'Age of Grace' or his gospel messages.

            If you go up to any Muslim in the street and they claim Paul as false, how can we prove to them using the Old Testament Scriptures including Jesus' statements that Paul is not false?

            To clarify myself further:
            1. I don't reject what the Apostle Paul teaches. I hold strong to what he says.
            2. The main reason why I'm posting this is to see how we can rebuke this claim doctrinally, using scripture that Muslims are familiar with.
            3. To understand what this Muslim man is talking about and what I understand I will try to add the following attachments...

            001APOSTLE OF GRACE1.doc
            002APOSTLE OF GRACE2.doc
            Nothing more. Nothing less.
            My faith in Christ is righteousness!
            Jesus came to save us, His Spirit to change us.
            Christ covers OUR imperfection with HIS perfection!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't care what Muslims think of Paul or anyone else. I am only concerned by what Christians say about Paul. You said a lot of negative things about Paul:

              "what Paul preaches is exactly quite opposite to what Jesus teaches."


              "we knew that Paul and Jesus taught different things."

              That isn't true.

              Paul
              Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

              Jesus
              Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
              Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
              Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
              Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
              Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


              Both are making the same exact point.

              Jesus
              Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
              Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

              Paul

              Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
              Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

              Again, similar concepts. Both are being accused of destroying the law but both were teaching something deeper which fulfilled or established the law.


              Now, if you take one thing at a time from these Muslims then lets discuss these things in order.
              1Peter 3:15
              (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

              Comment


              • #8
                Uh... You took what I said out of context Naphal:
                "what Paul preaches is exactly quite opposite to what Jesus teaches.
                Jesus taught under Law. Paul taught outside of the Law. Paul teaches the 'mysteries' and says we are not bound by Jewish Law! Thats quite a claim." -->I'm simply saying that the 'opposites' were Jesus teaching the Law- Paul teaching the freedom FROM Law. That's fairly opposite to me.

                You used Galatians 5:14 to make the claim that Jesus and Paul taught the same thing. But keep reading...

                Galatians 5:14-18 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
                But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
                For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
                But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


                Paul is pretty much saying, "if you can't live by this law-abiding, fulfilled commandment, and continue to attack one another, walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. If you're led by the Spirit, you are not under Law."
                It's like he just made a greater commandment then 'love thy neighbour'.

                Now if Jesus said to anyone, ANYONE, that they were not under Jewish law to anyone in Jerusalem because they were 'led by the Spirit', not only would that not make scriptural sense for that time period, but he would be contradicting himself as you quoted him saying in Matt 5. He would have become an imperfect sacrifice because He was born under law and had to be submitted to it. Paul knew the freedom he had in Christ and fully understood what Christ did to the Law.

                "...we knew that Paul and Jesus taught different things.
                Jesus didn't teach what happened after Calvary nor did any of Jesus' disciples. They were preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom and then teaching Jews how to live under and according to the Law of Moses."

                Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
                Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


                Jesus couldn't destroy/abolish/remove the Law while He was alive. That would prove His perfect being to be corrupted. When He died, the Law died with Him! What He did was fulfill it by being the perfect sacrifice! That perfect godly sacrifice took AWAY the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD. The whole world is forgiven! So how can the Law operate to a forgiven world by the blood of God-the author of the Law and the finisher of the Law?

                When Jesus met the requirements of the Law by being the perfect sacrifice he FULFILLED it's purpose. According to the prophets writing, Jesus FULFILLED what was written about Him and what needed to be done. All was fulfilled on the cross.

                This brings me to the next verse you misquoted about the Law.

                Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


                It's through the fulfillment of the Law we see God's faithfulness to us! Therefore He has allowed us to operate in His faithfulness, in the fulness of all he is. We see why the Law was established to begin with to fully grasp and understand who God really is and actually comprehend what He had accomplished! =)

                So we see that Jesus preached the Law to those under Law. We see Paul preach to Gentile and Jew, grace, for those that know not the Law or how to uphold it's perfection. Jesus never talked about 'the mysteries', 'the rapture', 'the first resurrection', 'the great high priest who is forever interceding for us', 'the redemptive power of the cross',etc. These were Paul's gospels!

                = = = = =

                I love Paul and can't get enough of what has to say! But after all this, if you are not convinced with what I have said about the preaching different gospels, that being Paul and Jesus teaching different things, I have a question for you:

                None of the 12 apostles knew what Jesus Christ did on the cross; what He established when He rose again; and what He did and continues to do in Heaven. So how were the 12 apostles saved if they didn't have the four gospels to preach from or have Paul?

                = = = = =

                This is why I wanted to see doctrinally why Paul can be validated as a true to teacher and to have his teachings applied to the canon of scripture.
                Some claim him to be false because he preached this 'Gospel of Grace' and 'Gospel of Glory' that which not Jesus nor John the Baptist nor any of their disciples preached.

                The Jerusalem meeting saw them accept Paul's Gospels, his teachings and his message to Jew and Gentile while they continued preaching their gospel message to Jews alone. Peter himself said they were scripture- which I believe.

                But this Muslim man claims 'they were deceived'. How can we prove doctrinally that what Paul says or has done is in line with scripture?
                I totally accept your answer Naphal. In all honesty I forgot about the Holy Spirit using Paul for signs and wonders.

                But doctrinally, it is recorded that many can/will be deceived through signs and wonders. So what can be proved that Paul and the things he says are doctrinally correct using scripture? Prophecy? Law? Foreshadowing examples? Types and anti-types? Cristophanies? Spiritual encounters in the Old Testament/New Testament times? How can we prove these critics wrong?

                I wanna know! And these guys are willing to know. My family is looking into it. It's a real challenge, but I'd like to report our findings back to this author. I'm amazed of his understanding of the bible.
                Please pray for him!


                BTW. Thanks for all who have replied. Highly appreciated.
                Nothing more. Nothing less.
                My faith in Christ is righteousness!
                Jesus came to save us, His Spirit to change us.
                Christ covers OUR imperfection with HIS perfection!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Here's a link to my friends body of work which he has assembled as a bible study. If anyone at all is having trouble understanding where I am coming from, I recommend you check out his easy to read studies (and enjoy my friends poems if the gospel series aint your thing):


                  http://web.mac.com/weggl/Site/Gospel_of_Grace.html
                  Nothing more. Nothing less.
                  My faith in Christ is righteousness!
                  Jesus came to save us, His Spirit to change us.
                  Christ covers OUR imperfection with HIS perfection!!!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I believe most of the misunderstanding comes from the belief that Paul was against the law of God. Paul was a lawyer/pharisee. He writes like a lawyer in many ways which makes him, as Peter says, difficult to understand.

                    2 Peter 3:14-16

                    14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

                    When properly interpreted, Paul's writings line up with Yeshua and everything else in scripture.

                    God Bless!
                    II Timothy 2:15
                    Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                    Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Listen, when it comes down to it; accusing Paul of decieving the church is attributing to Satan what was done by Christ. There's a certain danger in that.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by joztok View Post
                        Our family are in the middle of reading a book entitled 'Islam and Christianity', wanting to learn the differences between the two beliefs.
                        Unfortunately the book was written from a Muslim's perspective but he raises an interesting claim.

                        He claims that the Apostles and Jesus' brothers were deceived by the teachings of Paul. What did Paul teach them?
                        Paul taught them his Gospel of Grace and his Gospel of Glory- these gospels to the gentiles and believers.

                        Now this writer states that's why Gabriel appeared to Mohammad. What biblical proof is there that what he preaches in his epistles or in Acts is scriptural? Revelations and the entire new testament will be ruled out because these gospels and letters (except James), were written after the Jerusalem Church meeting.

                        Any old testament prophecy? Any commands from Moses? Anything teachings through the Law?

                        We as a whole are fairly stumped. The question also had us all stumped at our Bible Study.

                        So to all you scholars and theologians, figure this one out. I'll be reading that comes up. The question I am simply asking is:

                        How can we prove that the Apostles and Jesus' brothers were not deceived by the teachings of Paul and what he preached? How can we know that Paul wasn't tricked or thought this was the ideal way to try to kill the movement of Christianity?
                        The simplest proof that the apostles were not deceived by Paul comes in two places.

                        First, the apostles were given perfect recall of everything Jesus taught:

                        Joh 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

                        Joh 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.


                        If Peter and John, etc., were inspired teachers, would it not follow that they could discern a deception from Paul?

                        Second, around AD 62 Peter wrote:

                        2Pe 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
                        2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.


                        There were some people distorting the message of Christ, but Peter and Paul were on the same page as to what they were teaching. This was the case in AD 62, and it was the case in AD 33 when the events recorded in Acts 2 were occuring.

                        You see, Peter taught the same things in AD 33 that he taught in AD 62. Paul's conversion happened after AD 33, probably around 40. Therefore, if Peter and the others were deceived, wouldn't his message have changed?

                        His message did not change, though, and neither did the message of any of the apostles.

                        What the Islam book says is not true.


                        [CENTER][SIZE=2]A FEW MINUTES WITH SOMEONE WHO LOVES YOU

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by joztok View Post
                          Uh... You took what I said out of context Naphal:
                          "what Paul preaches is exactly quite opposite to what Jesus teaches.
                          Jesus taught under Law. Paul taught outside of the Law. Paul teaches the 'mysteries' and says we are not bound by Jewish Law! Thats quite a claim." -->I'm simply saying that the 'opposites' were Jesus teaching the Law- Paul teaching the freedom FROM Law. That's fairly opposite to me.
                          I disagree that they taught oppositely. Paul was taught by divine inspiration directly from Christ so their teachings are the same.


                          Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.



                          You used Galatians 5:14 to make the claim that Jesus and Paul taught the same thing. But keep reading...

                          Galatians 5:14-18 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
                          But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
                          For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
                          But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

                          Paul is pretty much saying, "if you can't live by this law-abiding, fulfilled commandment, and continue to attack one another, walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. If you're led by the Spirit, you are not under Law."
                          It's like he just made a greater commandment then 'love thy neighbour'.

                          No, Paul didn't just add a new commandment. It's the same thing as what Jesus taught. Jesus taught a new interpretation of the law concerning obeying the Spirit of the law rather than strictly the letter of the law. Paul merely continues on from that teaching but they do not teach oppositely. That is the accusation of the enemy trying to divide Paul and Christ!


                          But this Muslim man claims 'they were deceived'. How can we prove doctrinally that what Paul says or has done is in line with scripture?
                          I totally accept your answer Naphal. In all honesty I forgot about the Holy Spirit using Paul for signs and wonders.

                          That should be enough let alone the testimonies of other writers of scripture on Paul's behalf.
                          1Peter 3:15
                          (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by joztok View Post
                            I love Paul and can't get enough of what has to say! But after all this, if you are not convinced with what I have said about the preaching different gospels, that being Paul and Jesus teaching different things, I have a question for you:

                            None of the 12 apostles knew what Jesus Christ did on the cross;
                            I don't agree. They may not have fully grasped it but he taught them about it.

                            what He established when He rose again;
                            I highly doubt that. He was with them after he arose!


                            Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
                            Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


                            Luke 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
                            Luke 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
                            Luke 24:8 And they remembered his words,

                            Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
                            Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
                            Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

                            Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
                            Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
                            Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
                            Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
                            Luke 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

                            John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

                            and what He did and continues to do in Heaven.

                            Oh come on! You don't think they know what Jesus is doing in heaven now when they are with him in heaven? You are being negatively affected by these anti-Pauline concepts. Doubt has crept into your faith and you are now in a struggle to believe one of Christ's greatest servants and his writings in the bible. This is very serious.



                            So how were the 12 apostles saved if they didn't have the four gospels to preach from or have Paul?
                            Is your point that if they were saved without Paul's writings then we can ignore Paul and still be saved too huh? This is very suspicious not to mention you are adding in the 4 gospels as possibly being unnecessary.
                            1Peter 3:15
                            (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't agree. They may not have fully grasped it but he taught them about it.
                              Please prove this statement scripturally.
                              The disciples had no clue what Jesus Christ did on the cross! I can say that boldly and without being in error of scripture. The scriptures you highlighted below was how Jesus proved the Old Testament Prophets and through the details of the Law how he was Israel's Messiah.

                              When Jesus said: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth", he could have said that anytime while He was on earth. It does not inform them what He did. But it did inform them who He was.

                              The apostles before Paul, did not teach anything to do with what God did on the cross, resurrection and ascension. Jesus spoke to them about the coming kingdom as covered at the start of the book of Acts. There was no mention of Jesus talking about what he had accomplished for the whole world in what he had done! They didn't know salvation by grace!
                              But they did know of salvation through the Promise given to Israel by God.

                              You posted this verse:

                              Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

                              God will justify the circumcised (Jew) by their faith. Yes! If they believe that Jesus Christ is their promised Messiah, they shall be saved. Never were they told to stop practicing the Law.

                              We see Peter preach at Pentecost that Jesus' death and resurrection were proof that He truly was their Messiah- so believe and be baptised everyone of you. NOT ONCE did he say that the cross took away the sins of the whole world and that 'we are saved by grace'. He didn't know! What Peter preached was the gospel that Jesus commissioned them to preach. This is the gospel of circumcision (the Gospel of the Kingdom), that Paul states that Peter and the other Apostles taught.
                              Gal 2:2 “And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.”

                              Gal 2:7
                              “But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter

                              Paul plainly states he had 'his' gospel to preach:

                              Rom 2:16 “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel

                              Now:

                              Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
                              Through the cross, the uncircumcised (us), are saved through God's faithfulness to showing the whole world who He is. We were never promised a Messiah- so Christ didn't come for us- he came for the house of Israel and commissioned his disciples to reach out to their fellow Jew.

                              But because God's plan was to save the whole world- his act of obedience and faith through the cross bought the whole world into a new covenant relationship with himself. Once again, this is what Paul preached- not what Peter preached.

                              Peter and the other Apostles were never told to stop practicing their Jewish laws. But Paul said that we Gentiles are not under it- and don't place yourself under it! It was never for us. The basics of the law are engraved on our hearts but we are to walk in the spirit, not under law.

                              Oh come on! You don't think they know what Jesus is doing in heaven now when they are with him in heaven? You are being negatively affected by these anti-Pauline concepts. Doubt has crept into your faith and you are now in a struggle to believe one of Christ's greatest servants and his writings in the bible. This is very serious.
                              While they were on EARTH they didn't have any idea 'what He did and continues to do in Heaven'. Please read the epistles of Paul! Read his gospel. Don't accuse me of doubting Paul's gospel message. I don't doubt what Paul has taught. I hold onto his words tightly.

                              We wouldn't know that salvation was for us if it wasn't for Jesus giving him the Gospel of Grace. Don't accuse me of being deceived when you continue to remain ignorant of the significance of what was given to Paul; HIS Gospel of Grace given by Jesus to him to preach salvation to the WHOLE world. He was the founding father of Christianity. Peter witnessed the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on gentiles but didn't know why they received God. He hid this truth for he was afraid of what the Jewish believers might do to him because of what had happened.

                              Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

                              It's claims like this that people like the Muslim man claim to show that Paul is false. I don't believe the Muslims claim, but I would like to dispute his claim biblically.

                              Thanks everyone for all your input. It seems as though we can only use the prophets and law to validate Christ's ministry here on earth and the Holy Spirit is the only proof we have to confirm that Paul's message for all of Christendom is valid. I particularly enjoyed Matt14's response.
                              Thanks mate!
                              Nothing more. Nothing less.
                              My faith in Christ is righteousness!
                              Jesus came to save us, His Spirit to change us.
                              Christ covers OUR imperfection with HIS perfection!!!

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X