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  • How should Christians view the word 'evolution'?

    moved from another thread http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=117006
    Originally posted by ikester7579
    Not to start another debate in this thread when I say this. But as far as evolution goes... What is for God cannot turn someone against God. You have to think about that one because there are theistic evolutionists (people who believe in God and evolution) out there. They usually and eventually lose their faith.
    (Not to debate. . . .)

    Well, what do we mean by evolution? If I said, "I believe in evolution!"; what would be the first thing to pop into everyone's head? I think for the majority of us, we would automatically assume fish with legs, 'chimps evolving into man" or, apes evolving into man, as is mistakenly held. When the majority of us use the word evolution, what I really think we're saying is macro evolution--species 'X' turning into species 'Y' over hundreds of millions of years (time, chance, matter), and so forth. For the record, I don't agree with macro evolution.

    But here is where I become controversial; I believe Darwin was a responsible biologist. I believe Richard Dawkins and Stephen J. Gould are (or were, in the latter case) brilliant scientists among many other brilliant scientists. I believe some parts of the evolutionary theory are true; micro evolution (adaptation), speciation, etc. I believe the theory of evolution has revealed fascinating aspects of God's creation.

    And so, atheists, secularists, humanists. . . They don't treat Christianity fairly; in fact, they treat us like dogs, and I really mean that. But I think that we as Christians need to become more aware of what's going on (not saying that anyone here isn't). We can only deny an umbrella term-evolution-for so long. Personally (and I know this is not an indication) I haven't many any theistic evolutionists who abandoned their faith. They would otherwise be stuck with the famous question, "Why is there something, rather than nothing?"
    Last edited by Studyin'2Show; Mar 3rd 2008, 11:18 AM. Reason: added link to former thread

  • #2
    Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
    moved from another thread http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=117006

    (Not to debate. . . .)

    Well, what do we mean by evolution? If I said, "I believe in evolution!"; what would be the first thing to pop into everyone's head? I think for the majority of us, we would automatically assume fish with legs, 'chimps evolving into man" or, apes evolving into man, as is mistakenly held. When the majority of us use the word evolution, what I really think we're saying is macro evolution--species 'X' turning into species 'Y' over hundreds of millions of years (time, chance, matter), and so forth. For the record, I don't agree with macro evolution.

    But here is where I become controversial; I believe Darwin was a responsible biologist. I believe Richard Dawkins and Stephen J. Gould are (or were, in the latter case) brilliant scientists among many other brilliant scientists. I believe some parts of the evolutionary theory are true; micro evolution (adaptation), speciation, etc. I believe the theory of evolution has revealed fascinating aspects of God's creation.

    And so, atheists, secularists, humanists. . . They don't treat Christianity fairly; in fact, they treat us like dogs, and I really mean that. But I think that we as Christians need to become more aware of what's going on (not saying that anyone here isn't). We can only deny an umbrella term-evolution-for so long. Personally (and I know this is not an indication) I haven't many any theistic evolutionists who abandoned their faith. They would otherwise be stuck with the famous question, "Why is there something, rather than nothing?"
    Evolution is the exact opposite of creation on every issue. So to believe in it plus God, requires one to make an excuse for why Genesis say what it does. What would be your answer for Genesis chapter one not lining up with God's word?

    Don't believe evolution is the exact opposite?

    What God's word says...................What evolution theory says.
    1) Earth before sun................................1) Sun before earth.
    2) Oceans before land.............................2) Land before oceans.
    3) Light before sun.................................3) Sun before light.
    4) Land plants first.................................4) Marine life first.
    5) All life came from the water..................5) Life came from land and water.
    6) Fish before insects..............................6) Insect before fish.
    7) Plants before sun................................7) Sun before plants.
    8) Bird before reptiles..............................8) Reptiles before birds.
    9) God created man................................9) Man created God out of need.
    10) Man has a soul.................................10) Man has no soul.

    If evolution is so intertwined with God, why does it deny what is written about creation on every issue? According to God's word, the exact opposite of good is evil.

    So you choices are:

    1) If you believe that evolution is true. Then evolution is good and creation is evil because it is the opposite of what is considered good. Which makes the first chapter of the bble evil.

    2) If you believe creation is true. Then creation is good and evolution is evil because it is the opposite of what is good.

    The is so only because both are opposites of one another. So you have to choose which one you want to be good, and which one you want to be evil. Because which ever you choose automatically defaults the other to the opposite.

    Also, in evolution, what did God create? And how could you prove it scientifically?

    For evolution requires scientific evidence, correct? So how could you prove that anything in evolution was ever created by God?

    The other side of believing in evolution and God is: Any verse that reconfirms what is claimed about what is said in Genesis 1 is also wrong.

    Example: How does like exist when there is no sun?

    1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    So God was the light that existed on day one of creation. But if you believe in evolution this verse is wrong.

    rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    This verse also reconfirms this as well. But if you believe in evolution. This verse is wrong also.

    Etc...

    This is why I prefer to be YEC. It denies nothing in God's word.
    Note: By request I can only post and see the tech section of this forum. So don't respond to my posts in the other sections because I cannot see them so I cannot respond. You can PM me if you need to.
    My site: http://www.yecheadquarters.org/

    Comment


    • #3
      Not meaning to offend, Isaac, but I think you may be missing the point Xel'Naga is making. I don't believe he's saying he is a theistic evolutionist or that he believes in goo to you evolution. I was hoping the thread might focus on how we view the word 'evolution'. I'm sure you have heard the terms speciation and adaptation. These are considered micro-evolution by most creationists. So, in that case I believe in that form of evolution and it does not go against the creation account.

      As for theistic evolutionists, I was one when I was saved so I would have to say that when we come off as if we 'know' that theistic evolutionists have no faith, it can do more harm than good as far as informing them of the truth. People tend to become defensive, especially as a believer hearing someone else question their faith. We are much more effective if we simply share the truth without making any open judgment concerning the state of someone's faith.

      I believe that if we properly define evolution so that intelligent people can see that when we deny darwinian evolution, we are not denying those facets that are evident (adaptation and speciation) which is what Darwin observed on the Galapagos Islands, they are more likely to listen to the truth we have to offer. Just my two cents.

      God Bless!
      II Timothy 2:15
      Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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      • #4
        Originally posted by ikester7579 View Post
        Evolution is the exact opposite of creation on every issue. So to believe in it plus God, requires one to make an excuse for why Genesis say what it does. What would be your answer for Genesis chapter one not lining up with God's word?

        Don't believe evolution is the exact opposite?

        What God's word says...................What evolution theory says.
        1) Earth before sun................................1) Sun before earth.
        2) Oceans before land.............................2) Land before oceans.
        3) Light before sun.................................3) Sun before light.
        4) Land plants first.................................4) Marine life first.
        5) All life came from the water..................5) Life came from land and water.
        6) Fish before insects..............................6) Insect before fish.
        7) Plants before sun................................7) Sun before plants.
        8) Bird before reptiles..............................8) Reptiles before birds.
        9) God created man................................9) Man created God out of need.
        10) Man has a soul.................................10) Man has no soul.

        If evolution is so intertwined with God, why does it deny what is written about creation on every issue? According to God's word, the exact opposite of good is evil.
        Well no, that's not what I'm trying to say. And please, don't take offense, I'm not trying to cause trouble or promote some sort of theistic evolutionary theory of creation. What I am trying to point out, however, is that when we as Christians go against evolution; and we say evolution, we are going not only against macro evolution; which I absolutely don't agree with. And we are going against micro evolution, which I, and many Creationists, do agree with. I think Darwin, when visiting the Galapagos islands discovered speciation in finches, uncovered a remarkable resiliency of God's creation. Darwin himself, on positing the theory of macro evolution of 'X' into 'Y' species, stated that if we cannot, within one hundred years, find any transitional forms, his theory of macro evolution had to be tossed out. It isn't Darwin's fault that subsequent scientists grasped onto his theory.

        The other thing is that evolution is tied into, but doesn't deal with, the formation of the universe. On that I must also say that what modern scientists call the 'Big Bang', we might better define as when God initially created the heavens and the earth in an instant. And so we can on mutual grounds agree that the universe came into being like that. And we can then disagree on the time line following.

        The issue, I think, and I don't want to accuse anyone here of this, is that Christianity, speaking in generals, is ignorant of evolution especially. I'm not advocating macro evolution as truth, but I do wish to bring an awareness of what exactly we're going up against when we generalize scientific theories like we do with evolution. I think we best next ask the question, "are theistic evolutionists saved?"; against scripture, do they meet the requirements of salvation? If they 'pass the test', then I would much rather see a saved theistic evolutionist, then an atheist who I tried to convince of a literal creation.

        What I'm really getting at is if these people are saved, the Spirit will renew their minds.

        Originally posted by ikester7579 View Post
        So you choices are:

        1) If you believe that evolution is true. Then evolution is good and creation is evil because it is the opposite of what is considered good. Which makes the first chapter of the bble evil.

        2) If you believe creation is true. Then creation is good and evolution is evil because it is the opposite of what is good.
        That's the thing; it isn't so black and white when you take the whole of the evolutionary theory. I believe creation occurred exactly as the Bible describes it. Going against many influential theologians, I naively believe (As British Theologian Colin Gunton would say) in a literal creation. I do believe, however, that creation continues and as such God has given his creation the ability to adapt to the world. I don't believe 'X' turns into 'Y', but I do believe that 'X' modifies itself according to extrinisic factors.

        Originally posted by ikester7579 View Post
        The is so only because both are opposites of one another. So you have to choose which one you want to be good, and which one you want to be evil. Because which ever you choose automatically defaults the other to the opposite.

        Also, in evolution, what did God create? And how could you prove it scientifically?

        For evolution requires scientific evidence, correct? So how could you prove that anything in evolution was ever created by God?

        The other side of believing in evolution and God is: Any verse that reconfirms what is claimed about what is said in Genesis 1 is also wrong.

        This is why I prefer to be YEC. It denies nothing in God's word.
        I can't your first question; I'm not advocating theistic evolution. For your second question, there have been many studies of speciation and adaptation--finches, for one. Worms, RNA, dogs in Siberia. . .

        You'll have to excuse my question, what does YEC stand for?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
          I think for the majority of us, we would automatically assume fish with legs, 'chimps evolving into man" or, apes evolving into man, as is mistakenly held.
          I agree it's mistakenly held, but apparently only by folks on this forum. I've seen a lot of talk about apes and chimps evolving into people on this forum, which is a straw man argument. Evolution science says that humans and apes have evolved from a common ancestor, not that humans evolved from apes.

          I belong to the Epsicopal Church, and am proud that it was one of the first Christian churches who officially stood up in behalf of evolution science. The Anglican Communion, of which we are a part, was also one of the first to defend the heliocentric theories of Galileo against religious abuse and sectarian pseudoscience.
          If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. - John 8:36

          Comment


          • #6
            I think evolution for the majority of Christians today is much like the issue of food sanctified for Pagans, addressed by Paul in Romans 14 (verses 20-23, I believe). I think there are enough inferences (and I mean no disprect to anyone) for that to stand by itself.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
              moved from another thread http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=117006

              (Not to debate. . . .)

              Well, what do we mean by evolution? If I said, "I believe in evolution!"; what would be the first thing to pop into everyone's head? I think for the majority of us, we would automatically assume fish with legs, 'chimps evolving into man" or, apes evolving into man, as is mistakenly held. When the majority of us use the word evolution, what I really think we're saying is macro evolution--species 'X' turning into species 'Y' over hundreds of millions of years (time, chance, matter), and so forth. For the record, I don't agree with macro evolution.

              But here is where I become controversial; I believe Darwin was a responsible biologist. I believe Richard Dawkins and Stephen J. Gould are (or were, in the latter case) brilliant scientists among many other brilliant scientists. I believe some parts of the evolutionary theory are true; micro evolution (adaptation), speciation, etc. I believe the theory of evolution has revealed fascinating aspects of God's creation.

              And so, atheists, secularists, humanists. . . They don't treat Christianity fairly; in fact, they treat us like dogs, and I really mean that. But I think that we as Christians need to become more aware of what's going on (not saying that anyone here isn't). We can only deny an umbrella term-evolution-for so long. Personally (and I know this is not an indication) I haven't many any theistic evolutionists who abandoned their faith. They would otherwise be stuck with the famous question, "Why is there something, rather than nothing?"
              I agree with your whole post here. Having had evolution in school and growing up thinking it was true...I actually had to turn my thoughts around in seeing how it conflicted with Genesis (though there are many Christians who do not see that conflict and believe evolution is how God did it and after years of these kinds of debates, I decided its not worth debating with them on...that it was causing separation instead of us remembering we both agree Jesus is our Lord and Savior). Having studied it more indepth I also discovered the lies (the leaps so to speak) on the macro evolution part of it.

              Yet we cannot deny things like the thousands of different breeds of dogs...God didn't start out making thousands of different breeds of dogs. We manipulated in their breeding, they evolved...they are all still dogs..none can fly, nor can live in the sea, but they are all very different. This is micro evolution...small changes in an animal...though it seems like a big change, none of them have evolved into another animal all together...they are still dogs.

              Anyway yes I agree...if a Christian is going to even discuss this with anyone they need to first know what they are talking about.

              Oh YEC, means Young Earth Creation...that the earth is 7 thousands years old and not billions of years old (which frankly I is true because their way of dating is not reliable and that has been proven) I also think the Big Bang proves God is perfectly capable of creating everything...in an instant! So why would He need billions of years to create the stars, planets and the earth?

              God bless
              "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Knight Templar View Post
                I agree it's mistakenly held, but apparently only by folks on this forum. I've seen a lot of talk about apes and chimps evolving into people on this forum, which is a straw man argument. Evolution science says that humans and apes have evolved from a common ancestor, not that humans evolved from apes.

                I belong to the Epsicopal Church, and am proud that it was one of the first Christian churches who officially stood up in behalf of evolution science. The Anglican Communion, of which we are a part, was also one of the first to defend the heliocentric theories of Galileo against religious abuse and sectarian pseudoscience.
                Yes I agree..the Catholic church actively killed those that were in the field of science that said anything they thought went against their beliefs hundreds of years ago ...and people today seem to think we would still like to burn alive those that hold a view that goes against the bible ...the thing is..science is just now catching up with God and all the early scientist were Christians...they came to many of their discoveries because of the written word of God.

                I think in the end, provided this earth remains long enough..the science in the bible will be proven. Including creation.

                As far as the public school debates on whether evolution should be taught or not...personally I think its wrong for us to expect a secular school system to teach creation...I think that is the parents job. When I learned about evolution in school...though some of it was simply not true ...I just thought this is how God did it...I didn't think twice about it. It never affected my views on the bible or on God..those that lose their faith because of evolution such as happened to Lee Stobel...I don't know...I guess I don't understand why they would lose their faith over it. But I know some do...

                God bless
                "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                  Oh YEC, means Young Earth Creation...that the earth is 7 thousands years old and not billions of years old (which frankly I is true because their way of dating is not reliable and that has been proven) I also think the Big Bang proves God is perfectly capable of creating everything...in an instant! So why would He need billions of years to create the stars, planets and the earth?
                  Ahh, thought so. Well, I guess I would be included in young earth creationists. Thanks for the reply, moonglow!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
                    Ahh, thought so. Well, I guess I would be included in young earth creationists. Thanks for the reply, moonglow!
                    Sure...as I said I used to get into this type of discussion alot. I agree so much with what you are saying that we need to know what we are talking about before even entering into such a discussion...at least know enough to know if its worth discussing (debating/arguing).. For me it just really depends on who it is and the motive behind it. I have burst the bubble on many would be debates by telling them many Christians do believe in evolution...I don't exactly example to them what kind of evolution though...as you said, people tend to view that word on way and that goes for nonbelievers too. It gives them little to attack our faith with if they are trying to use evolution as a reason to reject our faith. I still see us being accused of believing the earth in flat too! At least accuse us of things that are true!

                    You would think it would occur to them that they are making these accusations of us being cave dwelling backwards dense people WHILE engaging us on a computer!

                    (insert here a picture of cave man using computer, Ipod, cell phone, HD TV, etc, etc....)

                    but yet we are the dense ones...
                    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                      Sure...as I said I used to get into this type of discussion alot. I agree so much with what you are saying that we need to know what we are talking about before even entering into such a discussion...at least know enough to know if its worth discussing (debating/arguing).. For me it just really depends on who it is and the motive behind it. I have burst the bubble on many would be debates by telling them many Christians do believe in evolution...I don't exactly example to them what kind of evolution though...as you said, people tend to view that word on way and that goes for nonbelievers too. It gives them little to attack our faith with if they are trying to use evolution as a reason to reject our faith. I still see us being accused of believing the earth in flat too! At least accuse us of things that are true!
                      There was actually a poster in the CA forum a few weeks ago that felt the need to ask, and point out, that the earth wasn't flat anymore--did we still believe so!? I agree completely with you; there are some debates which aren't worth getting int--well, many debates. And there are those few debates which God really uses. My experience has been the same as yours; what? Christians believe in evolution? Eh?! You're against religion too? For some reason, it still catches a lot of people off guard. I'm sure I'm not the first person to have said such things.

                      Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                      You would think it would occur to them that they are making these accusations of us being cave dwelling backwards dense people WHILE engaging us on a computer!

                      (insert here a picture of cave man using computer, Ipod, cell phone, HD TV, etc, etc....)

                      but yet we are the dense ones...
                      Well, right now I've got my desk, monitor on top, tower underneath the desk. A wall to my left and bookshelves behind and to the right of me. That personal library of mine. . . Filled with many books; half of which, I would say, aren't written by Christians.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                        Yes I agree..the Catholic church actively killed those that were in the field of science that said anything they thought went against their beliefs hundreds of years ago
                        True, and unfortunate to say the least.

                        the thing is..science is just now catching up with God and all the early scientist were Christians...they came to many of their discoveries because of the written word of God.
                        I have to disagree because early science originated in pre-Christian times, especially with early scientists such as Aristotle and mathematicians such as Pythagoras.

                        In more modern times, both Newton and Darwin considered themselves Christians, but modern evangelical Christians would not consider them such because they were Unitarians. Einstein was raised Jewish, but rejected Judaism and religion in general.

                        I do agree that science is just now catching up with God. I just hope that we don't fail to see what God is telling us through nature due to our own personal biases and preconceived conceptions. Those who have studied physics, evolution, and astronomy often find themselves in complete awe, and this awe should properly be applied to the Creator. But when some well-intentioned theists tell them that the evidence before their very eyes is not real because a book says something different, they will dismiss the book as a fraud. This why I consider creationism not only bad science but a stumblingblock, at least in the sense that some evangelicals consider creationism not only historical fact, but a prerequisite to salvation.
                        If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. - John 8:36

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Knight Templar View Post
                          True, and unfortunate to say the least.



                          I have to disagree because early science originated in pre-Christian times, especially with early scientists such as Aristotle and mathematicians such as Pythagoras.

                          Well no I wasn't thinking that far back!! I was thinking of when the Catholic church was reigning and actively persecuting some of these early star gazes...

                          In more modern times, both Newton and Darwin considered themselves Christians, but modern evangelical Christians would not consider them such because they were Unitarians. Einstein was raised Jewish, but rejected Judaism and religion in general.

                          I have been doing some reading on Einstein and I don't think he rejected God as much as people say. While he didn't follow his Jewish roots, so many comments he made in references to God really makes you wonder. He really seemed to think if he could just figure it all out (in relation to time/space, etc) he could know the 'mind of God'..I think is the quote. I really think he was looking for God...and hadn't rejected Him as much as some writings make it appear. Several scientist says they 'regret' how Einstein phrased things in refence to God...they think he didn't mean God as in the God we know but God as in the 'thing' that runs it all...if that makes any sense.

                          I do agree that science is just now catching up with God. I just hope that we don't fail to see what God is telling us through nature due to our own personal biases and preconceived conceptions. Those who have studied physics, evolution, and astronomy often find themselves in complete awe, and this awe should properly be applied to the Creator. But when some well-intentioned theists tell them that the evidence before their very eyes is not real because a book says something different, they will dismiss the book as a fraud. This why I consider creationism not only bad science but a stumblingblock, at least in the sense that some evangelicals consider creationism not only historical fact, but a prerequisite to salvation.
                          I have heard this argument before..that there is no science in creationism and it is a stumbling block...do you care to explain exactly what you mean by this? Thanks. I agree with the rest of your statement for sure. How one can look at this universe and not know their is a God...is beyond me. To think its all just a big accident makes no sense to me.

                          On another note I keep complaining to God about the terrible winds we have had lately and I tell my son their should be a 'law' against such high winds...you know a law of nature they can't go pass so many miles an hour...

                          And God reminded me there is a 'law'...that on some planets the winds reach hundreds of miles an hour...and even more! And those are light winds... So I guess I have to quit complaining about this now...

                          God bless
                          "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
                            There was actually a poster in the CA forum a few weeks ago that felt the need to ask, and point out, that the earth wasn't flat anymore--did we still believe so!? I agree completely with you; there are some debates which aren't worth getting int--well, many debates. And there are those few debates which God really uses. My experience has been the same as yours; what? Christians believe in evolution? Eh?! You're against religion too? For some reason, it still catches a lot of people off guard. I'm sure I'm not the first person to have said such things.



                            Well, right now I've got my desk, monitor on top, tower underneath the desk. A wall to my left and bookshelves behind and to the right of me. That personal library of mine. . . Filled with many books; half of which, I would say, aren't written by Christians.
                            you are still a backwards cave dweller!!!

                            heh
                            "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Knight Templar View Post
                              I have to disagree because early science originated in pre-Christian times, especially with early scientists such as Aristotle and mathematicians such as Pythagoras.

                              In more modern times, both Newton and Darwin considered themselves Christians, but modern evangelical Christians would not consider them such because they were Unitarians. Einstein was raised Jewish, but rejected Judaism and religion in general.

                              I do agree that science is just now catching up with God. I just hope that we don't fail to see what God is telling us through nature due to our own personal biases and preconceived conceptions. Those who have studied physics, evolution, and astronomy often find themselves in complete awe, and this awe should properly be applied to the Creator. But when some well-intentioned theists tell them that the evidence before their very eyes is not real because a book says something different, they will dismiss the book as a fraud. This why I consider creationism not only bad science but a stumblingblock, at least in the sense that some evangelicals consider creationism not only historical fact, but a prerequisite to salvation.
                              The Word of God existed before Messiah came in the flesh, so moonglow speaking of science catching up with the word of God, in no way limited the time to that after Messiah. Whether a particular group would consider a certain person a believer or not is something that would have no bearing on the discussion whether it could be posited or not. And I am almost certain that Einstein was a theist.

                              However, the topic of this thread is how believers view the WORD 'evolution'. I'm not sure if you are aware that there are many different forms of 'evolution' many of which even YECs accept because they are observable and verifiable. Whereas macro-evolution is something that must be accepted by faith. Either way, I am not one that believes that whatever camp a believer might come down on in some way relates to their relationship with God. When I came to faith in Yeshua I was a theistic evolutionist (much as you seem to be). I absolutely, positively know that I was saved at that point. Over the years since accepting Messiah, as I have seriously studied this issue scientifically, I have come to be a firm YEC. Most people are surprised finding out that I came from an Ivy League college with a physical sciences background and have ended up with the belief that I have....but, hey, I have! Do you recognize the different facets of evolution that separate, let's say probiotic soup to simple celled organism 'evolution' from the type of speciation Darwin observed amongst the Galapagos finches?
                              II Timothy 2:15
                              Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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