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Why is the Christian Sabbath on Sunday?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Souled Out View Post
    Who says that He can't?
    I thought that was a basic tenant of Christianity. I mean, if God can forgive without sacrifice, why did Jesus have to die?

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    • #77
      God can forgive without sacrifice. Just... it doesn't do us any good at all. In the same way as a parent forgiving an unrepentant child is doing the child no favours. An unrepentant child needs to be punished. For his own sake, as well as everyone elses.

      We don't realise how serious sin is, until there is sacrifice. Only when we are confronted with how serious sin is do we repent. That I think was the purpose of the sin offerings in ancient Israel, and it is that which I believe is completed through Christ. Israel was the only ancient civilisation which had a concept of God being Holy and righteous. Everyone else sacrificed to feed their God. Israel sacrificed because they knew how serious sin was to a Holy and a Righteous God.

      Of course God could forgive us without us having to sacrifice... just as I could forgive a brattishly badly behaved child who refused to apologise.

      But just because He can... should He?
      Please could everyone pray for Mieke and Charles.

      My testimony http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthr...ight=testimony

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      • #78
        Originally posted by daughter View Post
        God can forgive without sacrifice. Just... it doesn't do us any good at all. In the same way as a parent forgiving an unrepentant child is doing the child no favours. An unrepentant child needs to be punished. For his own sake, as well as everyone elses.
        Why can't I be penitent without sacrifice? Why would a sacrifice make things better if I wasn't penitent?

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Fenris View Post
          I mean, if God can forgive without sacrifice, why did Jesus have to die?
          Because He is/was The Most Holy, and according to the law (Lev. 27:29) that is the only thing you can do with something so holy. IOW God is not redeemable.
          But we are redeemable by God (Ex. 6:6)

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Fenris View Post
            Why can't I be penitent without sacrifice? Why would a sacrifice make things better if I wasn't penitent?
            I don't know... but if you read the start of Isaiah, you see that God is more impressed with repentance than "sacrifice." Something for us all to think about.
            Please could everyone pray for Mieke and Charles.

            My testimony http://bibleforums.org/forum/showthr...ight=testimony

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Teke View Post
              Because He is/was The Most Holy, and according to the law (Lev. 27:29) that is the only thing you can do with something so holy. IOW God is not redeemable.
              But we are redeemable by God (Ex. 6:6)
              Another mystifying post by Teke.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                I thought that was a basic tenant of Christianity. I mean, if God can forgive without sacrifice, why did Jesus have to die?
                I think the prevailing idea is that Christ died to appease and angry God, but I don't see it that way anymore. That's just me.

                Some of the ancient and modern day Jewish writings and midrashes challenged my previously held view and flooded some light on the matter for me. Personally, it lined up perfectly with the scriptures and what I know about God's nature, so my view is not typical among the brethren.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Souled Out View Post
                  I think the prevailing idea is that Christ died to appease and angry God, but I don't see it that way anymore. That's just me.

                  Some of the ancient and modern day Jewish writings and midrashes challenged my previously held view and flooded some light on the matter for me. Personally, it lined up perfectly with the scriptures and what I know about God's nature, so my view is not typical among the brethren.
                  Very nice post, but it doesn't answer the question.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Teke View Post
                    Speaking of broad brushes. Why do I keep seeing this info about "catholics", be they Roman or otherwise, changing the sabbath day. There may have been historical calendar changes for work weeks, for instance the Romans came up with a ten day work week at one point, but other than that, I don't see any direct command for a change.

                    Even in the canons of the Apostles there is no mention of such a change. In fact, the only direct command is that worship on the Lord's Day (1st day of the week) is to be done standing up, no kneeling , sitting, or prostrations. And this is the way it has always been in the ancient historic Church.
                    So Saturday, you can still worship however you are inclined, and/or you can work for the good of the people (charity, the perpetual state of grace).
                    Teke,

                    I'm not painting with a broad brush, just recounting history. You say if we want to we can keep the 7th day but that has not always been the case. Over the past 2500 years many people, mostly Jews but also other followers of the Almighty have been persecuted for keeping the 7th day Sabbath. Much of the persecution in the past two millennium has occurred at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church. During the the Council of Trent this was said
                    “The authority of the Church is illustrated most clearly by the scriptures, for on one hand she recommends them, declares them to be divine, and offers them to us to be read, and on the other hand, the legal precepts in the scriptures taught by the Lord have ceased by virtue of the same authority. The Sabbath, the most glorious day in the law, has been changed into the Lord’s day. These and other similar matters have not ceased by virtue of Christ’s teaching (for He says that He has come to fulfill the law, not to destroy it), but they have been changed by the authority of the Church.” Gaspare de Posso, Archbishop of Reggio, Council of Trent, 1562.
                    There is also the more subtle implication.
                    "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s Day they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ." Catholic Church Council in Laodicea, 364AD, Canon 29.
                    History is not silent on this issue.

                    God Bless!
                    II Timothy 2:15
                    Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                    Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                      Another mystifying post by Teke.
                      If the law mystifys you, how else can I explain it to you. How about the Hebrew word herem, what does it mean to you?

                      There are plenty of Christians confused on this matter as well. Even though the Greek word [i]anathema[i] should clarify it better for them. Instead it becomes a stumbling block in it's relating the meanings of both, accursed, and offered up to God. This is why you'll hear both related by Christians in relation to Christ. ie. "He became a curse (literally accursed) for us", and "He was an offering to God on our behalf".

                      This is what they are trying to relate in words.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Teke View Post
                        This is what they are trying to relate in words.
                        That's great. Now I'm more confused than before.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                          Very nice post, but it doesn't answer the question.
                          Stickler...

                          To obey is better than sacrifice (paraphrased). I believe you would agree with that. God meets us where we are. Something in our conscience requires blood for wrong-doing (eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth). Sin, then payback (sacrifice) is a vicious cycle.

                          God, once and for all sent Christ to be the last, perfect sacrifice to stop the cycle. God has always wanted relationship and Christ makes that happen to satisfy our need.

                          We stop hiding, ashamed, because there's no reason to hide anymore. We stop the vicious cycle because the perfect sacrifice has covered all sin. Sin shouldn't hinder our ability to stand before Him because we have faith in what Christ did. We can enter into relationship with the Father once and for all, in spirit and in truth. (Paraphrased, elevator ride version)

                          I'm sure I forgot something...

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
                            Teke,

                            I'm not painting with a broad brush, just recounting history. You say if we want to we can keep the 7th day but that has not always been the case. Over the past 2500 years many people, mostly Jews but also other followers of the Almighty have been persecuted for keeping the 7th day Sabbath. Much of the persecution in the past two millennium has occurred at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church. During the the Council of Trent this was saidThere is also the more subtle implication. History is not silent on this issue.

                            God Bless!
                            The council of Trent was an independent council, meaning it is not recognized by the whole church. However, I do not believe it is indicating that they changed Saturday to Sunday, but that the Church puts more significance on the Lord's day than on the sabbath day. This supports the dogma of the Church, who's fullness is found in Christ and not Judaism.

                            The Council in Laodicea was dealing with a lot of judaizing going on at the time. It has always been a canon of the churches that if one receives the fullness of Christ and His Church and then turns their back on that, they are lost. This decision stands to date as far as I know.
                            One is either all for Christ or not. False ecumenism doesn't help anything.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Fenris View Post
                              That's great. Now I'm more confused than before.
                              Understandable, as great is the mystery of God.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Teke View Post
                                The council of Trent was an independent council, meaning it is not recognized by the whole church. However, I do not believe it is indicating that they changed Saturday to Sunday, but that the Church puts more significance on the Lord's day than on the sabbath day. This supports the dogma of the Church, who's fullness is found in Christ and not Judaism.

                                The Council in Laodicea was dealing with a lot of judaizing going on at the time. It has always been a canon of the churches that if one receives the fullness of Christ and His Church and then turns their back on that, they are lost. This decision stands to date as far as I know.
                                One is either all for Christ or not. False ecumenism doesn't help anything.
                                Saying that if you don't work on Saturday you are separated from Christ and that you shouldn't work on Sunday is pretty much tantamount to changing it. Plus, clearly you can't say we are free to keep the 7th day Sabbath, then agree with the council that said if we do, we are rejecting Messiah. How odd?
                                II Timothy 2:15
                                Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                                Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

                                Comment

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