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  • #31
    Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox View Post
    It makes sense, and these are all things I am well-aware of previous to this thread.
    But that is the point isn't it. Being aware of it and actually taking action to repent of it are 2 completely seperate things.

    Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox View Post
    It was unasked for, unwanted, and entirely unnecessary
    The reason I saw the neccessity was it appeared you are ready to admit wrong but not wiling to righ the wrong.

    That's why I posted the scripture I did. The wounds (truth that hurts) from those who care about you for your own good.

    Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox View Post
    and it has continued to a point that is near the limit of my tolerance. I am not going to move out of a house that I jointly own when my weekly income is $288 before taxes.
    Didn't say you had to move out. Said, don't have sex with someone you are not married to and don't marry an unbeliever.

    That is not the same as moving out. God will work that out as you follow His direction regarding sin.

    Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox View Post
    If we condemn all non-believers and force ourselves to remain separate from them, I don't see how we can expect to create new believers from them.
    No one even suggested that. Not having sex with someone you are not married to and not marrying an unbeliever is NOT "condemning them or seperating from them".

    Its simply not committing sin. You can't justify sin by saying its somehow helping to bring a person closer to God. It's not.

    Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox View Post
    Saying I have no intention of changing the situation is simply asinine. It will take many years to get her to a point when she can begin to trust in faith, and it is a goal that I have for her and one that I work on everyday. I'm am sorry to say there is no Instant-Convert button, at least not since the Dark Ages. Things take time, and I have little patience for those who want things their way on their time.
    Please describe how you plan to change the situation. I think that was VR's point. To change the situation you need to stop the deliberate sin.

    But bro, if you are getting angry then I'll just drop it and not make another post. If we can't discuss these things as brothers then I would just as soon let it go.

    Let me know.
    WDJD - what DID Jesus do

    He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
    securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

    Toolman

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
      I've already told you how to fix them, and if you won't listen to the Word but instead remain and wallow in sin . . . there is really nothing else anyone here can do.

      Again, you are in direct disobedience to God here. How someone can sit here, admit what they're doing is wrong and still want to remain in it even though it goes directly against what their Savior would have them do is completely beyond me. Me personally, I would have a hard time remaining in the sin that contributed to my Lord and Savior being nailed to a cross and suffering a death I would never want to experience. But you are free to do as you wish. Just don't be suprised if it doesn't turn out peachy.

      This isn't about "berating" you. This is about correcting your willful sin, which is what any brother/sister in Christ is supposed to do. I have a feeling that my "berating" is a lot more lenient than how someone like the apostle Paul would have handled this situation.
      Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself ~ Jesus Christ, circa the time of his sacrifice.

      Good job making two of us give up.

      EDIT: Make it 4, all of us sick of the condemnation. Jesus is about love. We'll pray for you.

      EDIT2: 2 Peter 2:1
      [ False Teachers and Their Destruction ] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Follow_Me_Infantry View Post
        Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself ~ Jesus Christ, circa the time of his sacrifice.

        Good job making two of us give up.

        EDIT: Make it 4, all of us sick of the condemnation. Jesus is about love. We'll pray for you.
        FMI,

        If "Tom" is cutting himself with a knife and "Bill" said "you should stop cutting yourself" and "Tom" says "I know I'm wrong for cutting myself, I don't need you to tell me that" and he continues to cut himself, was it condemnation and judgement that motivated "Bill" to tell "Tom" to quit cutting himself or was it out of true concern for his well being that he told him to quit cutting himself.

        Is willful sin really any different than cutting yourself?

        How does a brother in Christ calling for another brother in Christ to turn from willful sin end up with people "giving up".

        I don't see why we can't discuss this issue without all the hyper-emotional stuff. We are supposed to be men sharpening each other. Isn't part of sharpening removing off and whittling off the edges that are dulled?

        Maybe I'm missing something here. If I am please point out where VR is wrong in his counsel to CN. Aren't Christian brothers to encourage each other to rise above sin and follow Christ with every ounce of strength we have?

        WDJD - what DID Jesus do

        He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
        securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

        Toolman

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Toolman View Post
          FMI,

          If "Tom" is cutting himself with a knife and "Bill" said "you should stop cutting yourself" and "Tom" says "I know I'm wrong for cutting myself, I don't need you to tell me that" and he continues to cut himself, was it condemnation and judgement that motivated "Bill" to tell "Tom" to quit cutting himself or was it out of true concern for his well being that he told him to quite cutting himself.

          Is willful sin really any different than cutting yourself?

          How does a brother in Christ calling for another brother in Christ to turn from willful sin end up with people "giving up".

          I don't see why we can't discuss this issue without all these hyper-emotional outbursts. We are supposed to be men sharpening each other. Isn't part of sharpening removing off and whittling off the edges that are dulled?

          Maybe I'm missing something here. If I am please point out where VR is wrong in his counsel to CN. Aren't Christian brothers to encourage each other to rise above sin and follow Christ with every ounce of strength we have?

          I am not allowed to comment on the issue at hand.

          There is a way to correct from love and a way to worsen one's hurt.

          This man has 3 combat tours and chest cabbage to make a general raise eyebrows. He's no kid, regardless of his age. He's a hero.

          If you want to counsel him, that's one thing. But he came here, needing a sympathetic ear, not condemnation. He's essentially homeless, is jobless, suffering separation anxiety, and his true love just had an affair on him. Not to mention PTSD.

          And yet y'all piled on him. Tactless.

          What's more Christ-like: Your admonishment, or loving him back in to the fold?

          "Let he without sin cast the first stone." Jesus Christ.

          I see a lot of stones in this thread. All in the name of "help."

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Follow_Me_Infantry View Post
            If you want to counsel him, that's one thing. But he came here, needing a sympathetic ear, not condemnation.
            FMI, I guess I just have never thought of other godly men calling me to resist sin and follow Christ to be condemnation. I've just never viewed it that way.

            Originally posted by Follow_Me_Infantry View Post
            He's essentially homeless, is jobless, suffering separation anxiety, and his true love just had an affair on him. Not to mention PTSD.

            And yet y'all piled on him. Tactless.
            I guess we'll just differ there then. I didn't see it as "piling on" but because of love telling another to stop hurting themselves.

            Originally posted by Follow_Me_Infantry View Post
            What's more Christ-like: Your admonishment, or loving him back in to the fold?
            They are one and the same.

            Originally posted by Follow_Me_Infantry View Post
            "Let he without sin cast the first stone." Jesus Christ.

            I see a lot of stones in this thread. All in the name of "help."
            FMI, I'm all about the grace of God. Anyone who has spent anytime on this board with me knows that (I'm very often accused of believing in God's grace TOO much!). But grace does not enable sin and gloss over it but gently directs us toward what is hurting us (sin) so that we may cut it out of our lives.

            But obviously that is not coming across and since it appears CN does not want this to continue I will graciously bow out of the conversation. I do pray and believe that God would have us (the men of Solomon's porch) be there for each other, in all ways, comforting hurts and wounds and encouraging a resistance to sin and walking with Christ.
            WDJD - what DID Jesus do

            He died on a cross for our sin and rose from the dead,
            securing, for all who believe, eternal life and forgiveness of sin

            Toolman

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Clavicula_Nox View Post
              This will also be my last post in this thread because it has served it's purpose to me, and helped in an unforseen way in the direction of prayer, but I simply marvel at how many times you can tell me I'm wrong as if I'm disagreeing with you. What are you more concerned with? Pointing out wrongs or fixing them?
              Honestly, this was my concern too as I read this thread. I read every single post up to this point. If I was CN, I would have felt like killing myself to know that everyone "says" they're trying to help me but it sure doesn't seem that way. What kills me is that so many people take this stance that they are "holier than thou" and that the slightest mistake is grounds for immediate rebuke and chastizment. This guy came here to look for someone to sympathize with him and understand his situation. Not chastize him for the circumstance he is in. I am all for trying to fellowship and encourage one another to build each other up but some of you take it to a level that makes people feel like they'll never measure up to the life that some of you claim to live.

              I do the absolute best that I can to live my life as sin free as I can. I encourage my family and friends and I am always an ear to those in need. But I never use the Word of God to belittle them. How many of you have ever made a mistake or was living not-so-perfect and God chastized you the way some of you do to others?

              Maybe I'm wrong but sometimes I think you guys take things too far....
              Here is where battles are won....


              I Corinthians 10:13 (my verse for a while)

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Follow_Me_Infantry View Post
                Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself ~ Jesus Christ, circa the time of his sacrifice.

                Good job making two of us give up.

                EDIT: Make it 4, all of us sick of the condemnation. Jesus is about love. We'll pray for you.

                EDIT2: 2 Peter 2:1
                [ False Teachers and Their Destruction ] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
                1 Corinthians 5:1-13
                It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

                Should I comfort Clavicula Nox in his time of sin or should I fear God instead and correct my brother with God's Word in order to bring him back to where he is supposed to be? Should I be sympathetic of his sin or should I mourn the fact that he is out of God's will and is in danger of a much higher and swift judgment than what I'm giving him now? I expect folks to not understand where I'm coming from. The Word declares that folks will take offense to such things. However, I'm much more concerned about answering to my God than I am answering to folks who are comfortable in sin. God's grace certainly does not give us freedom to sin, and willful sin attempts to make a mockery of what our Lord Jesus Christ has done for us. Who do you love? Somehow I believe that if Clavicula Nox knew tomorrow that his lady friend's life would be ended if he chose to commit sexual immorality with her once more, he would refrain from this sin. Why is the same consideration not given to the fact that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ hung on a cross because of our disobedience? He died for our sin . . . not so that we could keep on sinning, but so that we could have victory over darkness and walk in righteousness. Willful sin is taking lightly the sacrifice of our Lord. There was no tolerance for it during the apostle Paul's time, and there will be no tolerance from me either. I will continue to fear God and not man. Let God be true and every man a liar!
                "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post

                  However, I'm much more concerned about answering to my God than I am answering to folks who are comfortable in sin.
                  This is exactly what I'm talking about. He NEVER said that he was comfortable in sin. He said that due to his circumstances, he had no where else to go at this time. He has acknoledged over and over again how he knows that "shacking up" is wrong. I don't know that he could have made it more clear. Using scolding words on the front end will certainly drive away anyone that would otherwise recieve what it is your saying.

                  If you really want to know what makes me mad?? When the woman with the alabastor box washed, kissed and anointed the feet of Jesus, Jesus didn't scold her for the sins she had commited as the Pharasee's made a big deal about. He forgave her of her sins without condemnation. Her heart was heavy with all that she carried. Which CN, IMHO was trying to do. But of course, instead of forgiving our brother for his sin, no we throw hot coffee on him and call him a scoffer first.

                  Wow yall.
                  Here is where battles are won....


                  I Corinthians 10:13 (my verse for a while)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one anotherís burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. (Galatians 6:1-2)

                    We all need to back up and take a deep breath here....

                    We should need no reminder that what is written above is NOT a SUGGESTION: it is God's command.

                    You know why it is important? BECAUSE SIN HURTS, SIN DAMAGES, SIN KILLS!

                    It hurts us and the ones we love...It damages our relationship with God, It can lead to every kind of burden, bondage, depression and yes...even death.

                    Bottom line: If I don't love you enough to point out that you're running full tilt into a minefield...then I don't love you at all! If I don't love you enough to try and restrain you going deeper (even at the risk of angering you), then I love Christ even less.

                    The spirit of gentleness is hard to convey on a message board...If I had been talking to this young man (whom I have a great respect for); I'd have said the same thing...difference is he would have heard the tone of my voice, he would have seen the posture of my body, he would have sensed the deep concern that I have....Because I've been around the block a couple of times myself and know from hard-won experience that God's word is true in regards to sin, repentance, and restoration.

                    And I've got news for you...were he a member of our church and (after a reasonable amount of time) failed to repent...then we would have no option but to go down the road outlined in Matthew 18...no matter how much it hurt us to do so...That's how serious it is in God's eyes.

                    You can't just treat the symptom and ignore the disease...

                    So before we start tearing down each other for standing upon the word of God, let us re-examine our priorities, and check our own hearts...OK?
                    Ιησούς Χριστός ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου



                    ****When the Lord opens a door, don't walk through it....run full speed; if it's the wrong one He'll let ya know...sometimes He just wants to see if you'll move at all!****


                    A Minister of God Ministry - Support and understanding for a Christian serving in the military

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by IWalkWithHim View Post
                      This is exactly what I'm talking about. He NEVER said that he was comfortable in sin. He said that due to his circumstances, he had no where else to go at this time. He has acknoledged over and over again how he knows that "shacking up" is wrong. I don't know that he could have made it more clear. Using scolding words on the front end will certainly drive away anyone that would otherwise recieve what it is your saying.

                      If you really want to know what makes me mad?? When the woman with the alabastor box washed, kissed and anointed the feet of Jesus, Jesus didn't scold her for the sins she had commited as the Pharasee's made a big deal about. He forgave her of her sins without condemnation. Her heart was heavy with all that she carried. Which CN, IMHO was trying to do. But of course, instead of forgiving our brother for his sin, no we throw hot coffee on him and call him a scoffer first.

                      Wow yall.

                      Pardon me, but you perhaps need to go back and reread this thread. Clavicula Nox is not just living with this girl, he is willfully and admittedly committing sexual immorality with her. The same sort of sexual immorality that was enough for the apostle Paul to judge that a man in Corinth needed to be thrown out of the church over it. Sexual immorality is sin, and it is required of me to both judge this as sin and correct him on it as well. Do you not see how serious this issue is? This is not a "Oh brother, you poor thing . . . you need to try to do better . . ." sort of situation. This is a "WAKE UP you are in clear disobedience to our Lord here and you are in danger of judgment" sort of situation. I would not be loving in this situation if I were to sit back and sympathize and pity him in such a situation. It would be different if he had come here saying that he had committed sin, he was sorry for this and repentant, and he wanted advice on how he could come back to where the Lord wanted him to be. Instead, he came admitting that he knows what he's doing is wrong, yet he's not prepared to bring these wrongful actions to an immediate hault. This shows that there is no repentance. Therefore, this fellow is living in sin and is in danger of judgment. Clear Scripture instructs this, so perhaps your issue is not with me but with God's very own Word.
                      "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                      -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Well, I realize my comments are going to get me banned.

                        But you guys are so busy naming sins that you forgot that the basic tenet of this faith is love. LOVE. You're hurting him, and for no reason than you wanting to play God. Let God do that.

                        This is contemptible.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                          Pardon me, but you perhaps need to go back and reread this thread. Clavicula Nox is not just living with this girl, he is willfully and admittedly committing sexual immorality with her. The same sort of sexual immorality that was enough for the apostle Paul to judge that a man in Corinth needed to be thrown out of the church over it. Sexual immorality is sin, and it is required of me to both judge this as sin and correct him on it as well. Do you not see how serious this issue is? This is not a "Oh brother, you poor thing . . . you need to try to do better . . ." sort of situation. This is a "WAKE UP you are in clear disobedience to our Lord here and you are in danger of judgment" sort of situation. I would not be loving in this situation if I were to sit back and sympathize and pity him in such a situation. It would be different if he had come here saying that he had committed sin, he was sorry for this and repentant, and he wanted advice on how he could come back to where the Lord wanted him to be. Instead, he came admitting that he knows what he's doing is wrong, yet he's not prepared to bring these wrongful actions to an immediate hault. This shows that there is no repentance. Therefore, this fellow is living in sin and is in danger of judgment. Clear Scripture instructs this, so perhaps your issue is not with me but with God's very own Word.
                          Sorry, my friend, but you are pushing many away from the faith that came here seeking to know Him. I'd rather be guilty of Clavicula's sin than knowing I have to explain to Jesus that I tried to preach His word and forgot His love in the process, thus driving people away because they wanted to listen to Jesus, and not you.

                          We truly are our own worse enemy.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Toolman View Post
                            I do pray and believe that God would have us (the men of Solomon's porch) be there for each other, in all ways, comforting hurts and wounds and encouraging a resistance to sin and walking with Christ.
                            Ya, y'all have done such a great job there, I tell ya. He's on the verge of suicide, but you're on the verge of telling people what God says.

                            Good job guys!

                            Let's pile the condemnation on a bit more, eh?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Follow_Me_Infantry View Post
                              Well, I realize my comments are going to get me banned.

                              But you guys are so busy naming sins that you forgot that the basic tenet of this faith is love. LOVE. You're hurting him, and for no reason than you wanting to play God. Let God do that.

                              This is contemptible.
                              Actually, you have it backwards, and the fact is that's just the truth. True love, and that is agape love, is going to judge sin and correct it. That's point blank and period. The question Clavicula Nox has to answer is whether he wants to obediently accept correction from the judgment he is receiving from his brothers in Christ here in this thread who are trying to lead him back into the truth, or does Clavicula Nox want to receive judgment from God who is much more fearful than anyone in this thread could ever be.

                              Whether you realize it or not, you are not helping anything here.
                              "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                              -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Follow_Me_Infantry View Post
                                Sorry, my friend, but you are pushing many away from the faith that came here seeking to know Him. I'd rather be guilty of Clavicula's sin than knowing I have to explain to Jesus that I tried to preach His word and forgot His love in the process, thus driving people away because they wanted to listen to Jesus, and not you.

                                We truly are our own worse enemy.
                                Or perhaps you are too spiritually blind to see the love in this thread. It's not love to play paddy cake about sin. Do you dare call Paul unloving in 1 Corinthians 5 when he judged that this brother committing sexual immorality needed to be thrown out of the church and into the hands of Satan so that his flesh could be destroyed? Do you dare make such a proclamation? It is our duty to judge sin. The simple fact that the church doesn't judge as it is supposed to is one of the reasons the church is such a mess right now.
                                "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                                -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

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