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"For the letter killeth, but the spirit gives life", 2 corinthians 3:6

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  • Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
    Why did what was ordained to life bring death? That is the million dollar question. Paul answered the 'why', because SIN dwells in him. There's the answer! It is sin within the heart of man. Thank God for the blood of Yeshua that HAS (past tense) removed my sin as far as east is from west! It was NEVER God's Holy Law that was the cause of death; it was us all along; our flesh. Such a blessing that we now know that we must crucify the flesh daily and walk in the spirit not in the flesh.
    Yes! it's because of US! It is because of our sin. I have said this before.

    I was answering the question why God would deliver His people out the bondage of Egypt to another bondage. The answer is that Sinai was ordained to LIFE, not bondage. The the letter of law BECAME death to us because of our sin.

    But the spirit of the law GIVES LIFE DESPITE OUR SIN! This is what you ought to be jumping up and down about! "The letter killeth, but the spirit gives life".


    ravi4u2 said:
    I believe it is those that insist on keeping the law and yet say that they live by the faith in the Spirit, that are in 'contradtiction'/
    Exactly! S2S says, "I live according to the spirit of the law". But then goes on and on about the letter. It's contradictory.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ravi4u2 View Post
      You are entitled to your opinions of course. But the Law is not the Christ, the Living Word. The law may be an essence of the Living Word, but definitely cannot be equated with the Person. As for the rest of your post, I have gone there before with you, so I will rest.
      He authored it. The Torah reflects His nature and they are both called "the Word." Your use of the word "definitely" was a dead give away but I'm glad you can now "rest." It's a Torah principle you know? todd

      Comment


      • Originally posted by thethinker View Post
        Yes! it's because of US! It is because of our sin. I have said this before.

        I was answering the question why God would deliver His people out the bondage of Egypt to another bondage. The answer is that Sinai was ordained to LIFE, not bondage. The the letter of law BECAME death to us because of our sin.

        But the spirit of the law GIVES LIFE DESPITE OUR SIN! This is what you ought to be jumping up and down about! "The letter killeth, but the spirit gives life".

        Exactly! S2S says, "I live according to the spirit of the law". But then goes on and on about the letter. It's contradictory.
        TT, I have not gone on and on about living by the letter. I have simply commented that your interpretation that it was God's Law that was nailed to the cross, is flawed. You seem to believe that the letter of the law is God's Perfect Law. I do not. As I mentioned before, by the 'letter' of the law you can lust and hate and divorce for no reason. But was that the Father's intention? As I show with my example of sending my daughter up to 'get in the shower', she was able to be disobedient going 'by the letter' of my command, when not considering the 'spirit' of how and why the command was given. It was not the command that was bad, it was how it was received. I'm amazed that more people cannot see that this is what the 'letter' is, NOT God's commandments!

        Alas, I believe we will eventually have to simply agree to disagree. I have been diligently studying this for years and I understand (based on the doctrine you've been taught) why you opposed what I believe. But believe me, why I opposed your view of God's Law is solely because of what I have read in God's Word! It is against the nature of the Father to give bad instructions to His people. I have been continually saying that it was NEVER His commands that were burdensome or bad but rather how they were received and executed by man. That's where our disagreement on this lies.

        God Bless!
        II Timothy 2:15
        Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
        Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ravi4u2 View Post
          I believe it is those that insist on keeping the law and yet say that they live by the faith in the Spirit, that are in 'contradtiction'

          But the works James speaks about is the great commandment. James says, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself", before he says faith without action is dead. The action required there is not one of keeping the law, but of loving one another not just with words but also with deeds.
          Here is the problem, Ravi. You 'keep' the Law too! Have you murdered anyone lately? If not you ARE keeping the Law. Have you committed adultery lately? Or worshiped a false god? Or dishonored your parents? If so, YOU ARE a Law keeper! Now, here's the kicker. Is that you attempting to EARN your way into His presence? Absolutely not! It is your desire to walk in His ways, correct?

          Not to offend anyone but the only people who I've discussed this with that seem to believe that they have to EARN their way is SDAs. I am NOT SDA. So what problem should another believer have with me walking according to God's commandments if I am NOT doing this to earn my way in or telling you or anyone else that they HAVE TO do what I do?

          As for the great commandment, Yeshua said that it encompassed all the Law and the Prophets. It's not replacing them it IS them in a nutshell! No one has placed a 'requirement' upon you or anyone else to keep God's commandments. You should be doing that already because it is written on your heart; it should be your desire to not murder and not commit adultery and so on, right? Loving God and our neighbor with not just words but with our deeds should be the desire of the believer.

          God Bless!
          II Timothy 2:15
          Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
          Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

          Comment


          • Originally posted by thethinker View Post
            But the spirit of the law GIVES LIFE DESPITE OUR SIN! This is what you ought to be jumping up and down about! "The letter killeth, but the spirit gives life".
            What part of "the Law" kills? What specifically is Paul addressing? todd

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart
              Also He admonished people:
              Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
              Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
              Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
              Originally posted by reply by ravi4u2
              This was before His death and resurrection and He was addressing the Jewish people, before his fulfillment of the law. And so a reminder to adhere.
              Yeah, that's a way to explain the Law away and keep the doctrine alive.
              There you run into another contradiction:

              Yeshua is the everlasting Word, there's no end to Him. In neither form as the spoken/written Word, nor as a person in flesh and blood.

              If you search the OT each covenant in the scriptures is everlasting....there is no end to it, and Yeshua Himself declared that he came not to destroy, but to fulfill, which obviously cannot mean "to end" !!!

              Since Studying already addressed yopur response sufficiently, i will only comment on this:


              Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart
              Futhermore having Faith (Heb "emun"/ "emunah" a really fascinating study can be had researching that word) proves again, that just believing in a mental sense is not enough aka:

              Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
              Originally posted by reply by ravi4u2
              But the works James speaks about is the great commandment. James says, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself", before he says faith without action is dead. The action required there is not one of keeping the law, but of loving one another not just with words but also with deeds.
              You appear to forget that the greatest Commandment to love another as yourself is one of the two greatest Commandments on which all the other Laws hang....

              IOW everything after that and the Command to love God with all your heart, mind and strength are direct extensions of those two greatest Commandments! There's no way out of that!

              There is no contradiction at all when one keeps the Law in Faith by the Spirit. I know i deserve nothing more than hell, but my hope and trust is in Yeshua and what He did for me.
              As S2S said, you keep the Law too, the difference is in how extensive we see it is, and you don't.


              Shalom,
              Tanja
              Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
              2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
              If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
              http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



              Comment


              • Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
                If you search the OT each covenant in the scriptures is everlasting....there is no end to it, and Yeshua Himself declared that he came not to destroy, but to fulfill, which obviously cannot mean "to end" !!!
                Torah pours forth from Jerusalem during the Messiah's earthly reign. We reign with Him as judges and priests so Torah is an important part of our training (here and now). todd

                Comment


                • Torah pours forth from Jerusalem during the Messiah's earthly reign. We reign with Him as judges and priests so Torah is an important part of our training (here and now). todd
                  Yep, i agree

                  Shalom,
                  Tanja
                  Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
                  2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
                  If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
                  http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
                    TT, I have not gone on and on about living by the letter. I have simply commented that your interpretation that it was God's Law that was nailed to the cross, is flawed. You seem to believe that the letter of the law is God's Perfect Law. I do not. As I mentioned before, by the 'letter' of the law you can lust and hate and divorce for no reason. But was that the Father's intention? As I show with my example of sending my daughter up to 'get in the shower', she was able to be disobedient going 'by the letter' of my command, when not considering the 'spirit' of how and why the command was given. It was not the command that was bad, it was how it was received. I'm amazed that more people cannot see that this is what the 'letter' is, NOT God's commandments!

                    Alas, I believe we will eventually have to simply agree to disagree. I have been diligently studying this for years and I understand (based on the doctrine you've been taught) why you opposed what I believe. But believe me, why I opposed your view of God's Law is solely because of what I have read in God's Word! It is against the nature of the Father to give bad instructions to His people. I have been continually saying that it was NEVER His commands that were burdensome or bad but rather how they were received and executed by man. That's where our disagreement on this lies.

                    God Bless!
                    Perhaps I can clarify for you STS, I don't think that thinker was saying that the law was flawed - but we know from our experiences that man is. The law pointed out the inherent sinfulness and imperfection of man and his inability to follow the law to the letter - and his need for a perfect God to fulfill it for him. This is why it is stated that we are "walking in the sprit of grace." Our own actions at no point have fulfilled the law for us, as the law justified no man before God. Only by the grace of God, are we even able to claim righteousnous through Christ Jesus. Adam's sin condemned all men to death and made all men lawbreakers, Christ's atonement sacrafice brought all men to grace/life in him.

                    In Christ,

                    Stephen

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Friend of I AM View Post
                      Perhaps I can clarify for you STS, I don't think that thinker was saying that the law was flawed - but we know from our experiences that man is. The law pointed out the inherent sinfulness and imperfection of man and his inability to follow the law to the letter - and his need for a perfect God to fulfill it for him. This is why it is stated that we are "walking in the sprit of grace." Our own actions at no point have fulfilled the law for us, as the law justified no man before God. Only by the grace of God, are we even able to claim righteousnous through Christ Jesus. Adam's sin condemned all men to death and made all men lawbreakers, Christ's atonement sacrafice brought all men to grace/life in him.

                      In Christ,

                      Stephen
                      Stephen,

                      If this were all thethinker was saying I would be in complete agreement. However, as I have told him/her my trouble is not with those who do not see the value of God's Law for the believer. My trouble is only with the interpretation that God's Perfect Law was nailed to the cross. That interpretation is flawed which is what I have been discussing. Of course we are not justified by keeping the Law! Who in this thread has said that we are?

                      God Bless!
                      II Timothy 2:15
                      Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
                      Read My Testimony sigpic Visit Our Website

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
                        That interpretation is flawed which is what I have been discussing. Of course we are not justified by keeping the Law! Who in this thread has said that we are?

                        God Bless!
                        No one, but it's a "straw man" that must be maintained at all costs. todd

                        Comment


                        • Perhaps it's my posts that people find so difficult to accept. I can come across terribly strong with this topic because i think it's such an important one.

                          To reiterate how i view this topic let me repost a part of what i posted eslewhere:

                          Let me ask you: Do you consider the laws of this country a bondage, or a yoke of some sort?

                          I know i don't, cause i have no problem abiding by those laws because i know they are there for everyone's good (ideally). I see it the same way with God's Laws.

                          Therefore even while i abide by the Law, i'm not under the Law.

                          Being law abiding does NOT equal being under the Law. Being under the Law in biblical terms actually means that the law requires punishment for an individual's sins committed by having broken the Law.
                          However the requirement for punishment does not apply to those who abide in Yeshua/the Word/The Law He gave because it's their heart's desire. He has gladly shed His blood to atone for our sins in this case.

                          As for what i fail to do according to the Law, God will teach me and correct me in due time. And i know i have His mercy through the blood of Yeshua on my side. I never said i was perfect.....but that doesn't and shouldn't stop me from trying to be pleasing to Him, by obeying Him to the best of my abilities.

                          This is what it means to have a circumcision of the heart which many in the OT times just refused to do.

                          Shalom,
                          Tanja
                          Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
                          2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
                          If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
                          http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jesusinmyheart View Post
                            This is what it means to have a circumcision of the heart which many in the OT times just refused to do.
                            So far, it's true of every age. todd

                            Mat 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. :22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? :23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity[law breaking]. :24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by valleybldr
                              So far, it's true of every age. todd

                              Mat 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. :22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? :23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity[law breaking]. :24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:"
                              I agree!! I just figured i have poured enough fire out here already, so i didn't want to say anything more.

                              Shalom,
                              Tanja
                              Jer 6:16 Thus says the Lord: Stand at the crossroads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way lies; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls.
                              2Jn 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
                              If it's not done out of unselfish love, then it's hardly righteous.
                              http://disciple2yeshua.wordpress.com/



                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Studyin'2Show View Post
                                Stephen,

                                If this were all thethinker was saying I would be in complete agreement. However, as I have told him/her my trouble is not with those who do not see the value of God's Law for the believer. My trouble is only with the interpretation that God's Perfect Law was nailed to the cross. That interpretation is flawed which is what I have been discussing. Of course we are not justified by keeping the Law! Who in this thread has said that we are?

                                God Bless!
                                I think the topic of this thread is to demonstrate that the letter itself is not something that could be completely fulfilled by any man, it took God to do this.(this is clearly expressed within the title verse of the thread) I believe thinker expressed fairly well that there was never a problem with the law, only with man's ability to be perfected through the law and brought back to fellowship with God.

                                I think what has been communicated within the thread title, as well as within all of his/her posts - is that man's inability to fulfill the letter of the law died with Christ that day, however, Christ himself being the fullfillment of the law raised the new man back from the grave, leaving the imperfection of the old man behind on the cross(an imperfection clearly demonstrated by man's inability to fullfill the letter by himself)

                                In Christ,

                                Stephen

                                Comment

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