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  • my take on Rev ch 6

    This is what I'm seeing when studying Rev ch 6. What do you guys think?




    I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will


    ]Isaiah 46:10


    Revelation 6 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)



    The seals literally span the entire 7 year tribulation. Seal one kicks off the tribulation & things are wrapped up in seal 7 when there is silence in heaven b/c everyone has left & come to earth to set up the Millenial kingdom. In Matt we see Jesus explaining these days that parallel the first 5 seals, here: Matt 24:3-22 "3 While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?" 4 Then Jesus replied to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ’I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, because these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these events are the beginning of birth pains. Persecutions Predicted 9 "Then they will hand you over for persecution, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 Then many will take offense, betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be delivered. 14 This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in all the world as a testimony to all nations. (See Rev 14:9) And then the end will come. The Great Tribulation 15 "So when you see the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place" (let the reader understand ), 16 "then those in Judea must flee to the mountains! 17 A man on the housetop must not come down to get things out of his house. 18 And a man in the field must not go back to get his clothes. 19 Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days! 20 Pray that your escape may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, the kind that hasn’t taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again! 22 Unless those days were limited, no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the elect.



    The First Seal on the Scroll ~ Anti-Christ



    1 Then I saw the Lamb open one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, "Come!" 2 I looked, and there was a white horse. The horseman on it had a bow; a crown was given to him, and he went out as a victor to conquer.



    The Second Seal ~ War & no peace



    3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4 Then another horse went out, a fiery red one, and its horseman was empowered to take peace from the earth, so that people would slaughter one another. And a large sword was given to him.



    The Third Seal ~ Famine/Food shortages/High food prices

    5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I looked, and there was a black horse. The horseman on it had a balance scale in his hand. 6 Then I heard something like a voice among the four living creatures say, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius—but do not harm the olive oil and the wine."



    The Fourth Seal ~ ľ earth under Death’s authority & killed via war/famine/plague/disease



    7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" 8 And I looked, and there was a pale green horse. The horseman on it was named Death, and Hades was following after him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill by the sword, by famine, by plague, and by the wild animals of the earth.



    The Fifth Seal ~ Christian Martyrs

    9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had. 10 They cried out with a loud voice: "O Lord, holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?" 11 So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until [the number of] their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been, would be completed.



    The sixth seal is showing the celestial signs that occur immediately AFTER the tribulation & prior to the DOTL This is also tied in with the 2nd coming of Jesus, our blessed Hope! See Matt 24:29- 31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the celestial powers will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."



    The Sixth Seal ~ Celestial signs immediately after tribulation which precede DOTL that begins after Christ’s 2nd coming that occurs now. This is also when the rapture would take place b/c it is closely tied to the 2nd coming.



    12 Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood; 13 the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind; 14 the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the military commanders, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of Their wrath has come! And who is able to stand?"(seeMalachi 3:2)(see Isaiah 13:11)(see Zephaniah 1:18)

  • #2
    In response to the white horse:

    What about the horse specifically implies an evil man? My arguments to the opposite:

    1 - Literally every other use of the word "white" in the Revelation is used to refer to people of righteousness and purity, whether they be men, angels or God Himself (including Jesus). To take this one instance of the word "white" and interpret it as a "false messiah" seems rather arbitrary and inconsistent. That is to say, when every other use of the word "white" is used to infer righteousness, it makes little sense to take this one use and turn it around.

    2 - The other three horsemen are shown to be metaphoric. We don't expect a literal man on a red horse to ride around the world with a sword, hacking and slashing at people, or a rider on a black horse to carry around scales to weigh out every individual's wages and foods and such. Obviously, the riders of the red, black and pale horses are intended to be symbolic of events, not literal individuals. To take the rider of the white horse and interpret it as a literal individual when the rest are not is arbitrary and inconsistent.

    3 - The epistles of John state that "the antichrist" is a spiritual concept that is found in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Everyone from an atheist to a Buddhist to a Jew is the antichrist. John's wording infer not a specific individual but a spiritual movement of denial of Jesus.

    4 - The one epistle (2 Thessalonians) that refers to a "son of perdition" or "man of sin" refers to him as just that: openly sinful. He isn't going to pretend to be a saving messiah, he's going to be a tyrant of a man. The above "man of sin" corresponds to Revelation 13's beast, but this beast is, again, presented as being openly sinful and destructive and evil. The Revelation is very distinct about who is righteous and who is wicked. When we see evil things, they are always presented as what they are: evil. We see a dragon attempting to devour the man-child. We see two beasts warring upon the saints. We see locust-like armies torturing mankind. We see a prostitute drunk on the blood of the saints. Throughout the Revelation, John consistently shows us the wicked exactly as they are; terrible, sinful, and wretched. And he consistently shows us the righteous exactly as they are; pure, good, and, more often than not, clothed in white. If the rider of the white horse is evil, the imagery doesn't fit the consistency of the rest of the Revelation, especially since John never says anything to the show that the rider of the white horse is only a "pretender."

    My conclusion on the rider of the white horse is that it is symbolic of something good, possibly the outgoing of the Gospel or the movement of the Holy Spirit.



    In response to the "celestial signs:"

    I highly doubt that these would literally happen. Similar "celestial signs" were prophesied over ancient nations, such as Edom, Egypt, Babylon, Tyre, Assyria, etc. When judgment came to pass upon these nations, we never saw stars literally fall upon them (heck, a single star would annihilate the earth). The best we can call it is "prophetic hyperbole." It is intended to depict the intensity of the judgment that is to come to pass, but that doesn't mean it would literally happen. The darkening of the sun and moon and stars, or the stars falling away, or the heavens rolling up, or God coming on clouds, are all Old Testament metaphors for judgment; each of the things mentioned were prophesied over nations during the time of the OT, and the judgments came to pass, but they didn't happen entirely literally. To put this into the best modern analogy, it's similar to someone saying it was "raining cats and dogs." We don't look out the window and expect to see literal cats and dogs dropping out of the sky, it was a metaphor for the intensity of the rain.
    To This Day

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    • #3
      Originally posted by markedward View Post
      In response to the white horse:

      What about the horse specifically implies an evil man? My arguments to the opposite:

      1 - Literally every other use of the word "white" in the Revelation is used to refer to people of righteousness and purity, whether they be men, angels or God Himself (including Jesus). To take this one instance of the word "white" and interpret it as a "false messiah" seems rather arbitrary and inconsistent. That is to say, when every other use of the word "white" is used to infer righteousness, it makes little sense to take this one use and turn it around.

      2 - The other three horsemen are shown to be metaphoric. We don't expect a literal man on a red horse to ride around the world with a sword, hacking and slashing at people, or a rider on a black horse to carry around scales to weigh out every individual's wages and foods and such. Obviously, the riders of the red, black and pale horses are intended to be symbolic of events, not literal individuals. To take the rider of the white horse and interpret it as a literal individual when the rest are not is arbitrary and inconsistent.

      3 - The epistles of John state that "the antichrist" is a spiritual concept that is found in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Everyone from an atheist to a Buddhist to a Jew is the antichrist. John's wording infer not a specific individual but a spiritual movement of denial of Jesus.

      4 - The one epistle (2 Thessalonians) that refers to a "son of perdition" or "man of sin" refers to him as just that: openly sinful. He isn't going to pretend to be a saving messiah, he's going to be a tyrant of a man. The above "man of sin" corresponds to Revelation 13's beast, but this beast is, again, presented as being openly sinful and destructive and evil. The Revelation is very distinct about who is righteous and who is wicked. When we see evil things, they are always presented as what they are: evil. We see a dragon attempting to devour the man-child. We see two beasts warring upon the saints. We see locust-like armies torturing mankind. We see a prostitute drunk on the blood of the saints. Throughout the Revelation, John consistently shows us the wicked exactly as they are; terrible, sinful, and wretched. And he consistently shows us the righteous exactly as they are; pure, good, and, more often than not, clothed in white. If the rider of the white horse is evil, the imagery doesn't fit the consistency of the rest of the Revelation, especially since John never says anything to the show that the rider of the white horse is only a "pretender."

      My conclusion on the rider of the white horse is that it is symbolic of something good, possibly the outgoing of the Gospel or the movement of the Holy Spirit.



      In response to the "celestial signs:"

      I highly doubt that these would literally happen. Similar "celestial signs" were prophesied over ancient nations, such as Edom, Egypt, Babylon, Tyre, Assyria, etc. When judgment came to pass upon these nations, we never saw stars literally fall upon them (heck, a single star would annihilate the earth). The best we can call it is "prophetic hyperbole." It is intended to depict the intensity of the judgment that is to come to pass, but that doesn't mean it would literally happen. The darkening of the sun and moon and stars, or the stars falling away, or the heavens rolling up, or God coming on clouds, are all Old Testament metaphors for judgment; each of the things mentioned were prophesied over nations during the time of the OT, and the judgments came to pass, but they didn't happen entirely literally. To put this into the best modern analogy, it's similar to someone saying it was "raining cats and dogs." We don't look out the window and expect to see literal cats and dogs dropping out of the sky, it was a metaphor for the intensity of the rain.
      I appreciate your input, but I respectfully disagree.


      In Matt 24 Jesus says “Take heed that no man deceive you, for many shall come in My name, saying ‘I am the Messiah,’ and shall deceive many.” These false messiahs and false prophets are represented by the white horse’s rider in Rev.6:2. The false religious systems of Islam is my best bed. They have deceived billions of people worldwide, and it is prophesied to get worse as we get closer to the end. The “bow” is a symbol of war. Who enforces their religion with the death penalty for non-believers in their system? Islam!? He was given a crown – by whom? Satan? Certainly not Yahweh!

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      • #4
        As far as the celestial signs being non-literal....I strongly disagree. Matt & Joel also describe these celestial events that will happen immediately after the tribulation of those days. There are many more reasons IMO to believe these will be literal than metaphoric.

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        • #5
          It's an excellent study Covenant Mom, but I tend to lean in with markedward concerning the first seal. Revelation is a very symbolic book and "white tends to be symbolic for purity. The premillennial anti-christ is anything but pure. Also the bow without the arrow indicates a peaceful conquest. The premill "anti-christ" will conquer by deception and force. Jesus' conquest has been and will continue to be a peaceful one. The only offensive weapon in the Lord's army is a sword which is the Word of God.
          -----------------
          Scott

          Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.
          Leave the rest to the Lord.

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          • #6
            Nice post markedward.

            Its too bad that a lot of people have made Revelation into something about the devil and the antichrist and the mark, etc. etc. and got the focus off of what it really is about: The Revelation of Jesus Christ. The whole book reveals Him.

            In the 6th chapter most have taken the focus off of Jesus as well and contributed it to the antichrist etc. However, try to focus on Who is unsealing the book: The Lamb. Jesus is unsealing Himself, ie The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Read chapter 6 as its Jesus Himself. What did Jesus tell His disciples after the Cross(when He was the Lamb)? All authority had been given to Him. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations. Matt. 28:18-19.

            The next horse is taking peace from the earth and there was given to him a great sword. What does Jesus Himself say in Matt. 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

            The next horse is black and has balances. Weighing the worth of wheat and barley. Plus not harming the oil and the wine. These are obvious references to christians.

            The fourth horse has Death and Hades following. Who has the keys of Death, Hell, and the Grave? Jesus does.

            Finally, the 6th seal speaks of Israel falling. The sun, moon and stars has direct ties to Israel. Remember to begin with, Israel was a person and had 12 sons. Have that in mind when you read about the 6th seal and read it along with the dream that Joseph had way back in Genesis 37: "Then he dreamed another dream and told it to his brothers, and said; Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." Now read the interpretation of the dream from his father(Jacob, who became Israel)

            "Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?" Thus equating himself with the sun, his wife with the moon and his eleven brothers as the stars.

            Pretty cool huh? Also look at the rest of the 6th seal. Who are they fleeing from? The Lamb. Not the Lion. This all occurred because of His death, burial, and resurrection. Hallelujah! How appropriate on this Easter Sunday.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by covenant mom View Post
              As far as the celestial signs being non-literal....I strongly disagree. Matt & Joel also describe these celestial events that will happen immediately after the tribulation of those days. There are many more reasons IMO to believe these will be literal than metaphoric.
              The Revelation is filled with Old Testament imagery and idioms. One of these, of course, is the sun-moon-stars imagery.

              Isaiah 13 - Isaiah prophesies against the ancient nation of Babylon. He says the stars, sun and moon would be darkened. Isaiah calls this day of judgment "the day of the LORD."

              Isaiah 34 - Isaiah prophesies against ancient Edom. He says that the stars will dissolve and the sky would roll up and the stars would fall.

              Ezekiel 32 - Ezekiel prophesies against ancient Egypt. He says the sun and moon and stars would be darkened.

              Amos 8 - Amos prophesies against ancient Israel. He says the sun would set mid-day.

              2 Samuel 22 - David sings against his enemies and against Saul. He says the earth and heavens trembled as God rode on dark clouds down to the earth.

              Obviously, none of these literally happened, so the best explanation is that they are prophetic idioms related to the ancient Jewish culture. Since John came from this same culture, we have a very good reason to believe that the sun-moon-stars verses from Revelation (and from Jesus' Olivet Discourse) wasn't intended to be taken literally.
              To This Day

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              • #8
                covenant mom, I am pre trib but I think it was a good post. I agree with you on the white horse. Wolf in sheeps clothing thing going on there. I also tend to take the celestial signs very literally.

                I disagree that the interpretation takes us away from Christ. I believe in 6:15-16 we can see that it is all about Jesus Christ and He is the Lamb, the only one worthy to open the seals. There is no doubt about Who is in charge, Jesus. No one else but Jesus is worthy to send this wrath upon those who have rejected Him.

                The rider of the white horse
                Joh 5:43 I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.


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                • #9
                  Hi, Covenant Mom! I am so glad you're here. Once my PMing is on, we're gonna hafta "talk".

                  OK, sorry, back to business....

                  Originally posted by markedward View Post
                  The Revelation is filled with Old Testament imagery and idioms. One of these, of course, is the sun-moon-stars imagery.

                  Isaiah 13 - Isaiah prophesies against the ancient nation of Babylon. He says the stars, sun and moon would be darkened. Isaiah calls this day of judgment "the day of the LORD."
                  This reason this prophecy has never been fulfilled literally is because it's still waiting for its ultimate fulfillment. You're writing it off too early.
                  Originally posted by markedward View Post
                  Isaiah 34 - Isaiah prophesies against ancient Edom. He says that the stars will dissolve and the sky would roll up and the stars would fall.
                  Same thing, this is still waiting for its fulfillment.
                  Originally posted by markedward View Post
                  Ezekiel 32 - Ezekiel prophesies against ancient Egypt. He says the sun and moon and stars would be darkened.
                  Same thing again.
                  Originally posted by markedward View Post
                  Amos 8 - Amos prophesies against ancient Israel. He says the sun would set mid-day.
                  This WAS fulfilled literally! Have you not read the story of the crucifixion? The Gospel accounts tell us that the sun went dark at noon. If that's not fulfillment, then I don't know what is! The parts about the destruction of Israel were also fulfilled to the letter in 70 AD!
                  Originally posted by markedward View Post
                  2 Samuel 22 - David sings against his enemies and against Saul. He says the earth and heavens trembled as God rode on dark clouds down to the earth.
                  This is awaiting a future fulfillment as well. Consider Psalm 22 for example. Psalm 22 is widely taken as a prophecy of Jesus hanging on the cross, centuries before crucifixion was even used as a method of execution. Yet the entire Psalm is in either present or past tense, just like the passage you reference in II Samuel 22. If Psalm 22 is referencing the then-future crucifixion as most Christians would agree, then so is II Samuel 22.
                  Originally posted by markedward View Post
                  Obviously, none of these literally happened,
                  Nope, one of them did, sorry, and the others will too at the 2nd Coming.
                  Originally posted by markedward View Post
                  so the best explanation is that they are prophetic idioms related to the ancient Jewish culture.
                  Can you find a place in the Scriptures where God instructs us to take it that way?
                  Originally posted by markedward View Post
                  Since John came from this same culture, we have a very good reason to believe that the sun-moon-stars verses from Revelation (and from Jesus' Olivet Discourse) wasn't intended to be taken literally.
                  So what other parts of the Bible shall we take metaphorically? How about Heaven? or how about the Resurrection? or how about the Crucifixion? Where do we draw the line?
                  ----------------------------------------------
                  When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                    This reason this prophecy has never been fulfilled literally is because it's still waiting for its ultimate fulfillment.

                    You're writing it off too early.

                    Same thing, this is still waiting for its fulfillment.

                    Same thing again.
                    Simply saying they "wait for a future fulfillment" doesn't mean they are. It seems that the only way they could rely on a future literal fulfillment is if one presumes they are literal. Otherwise, it makes little sense to take them out of the context they were presented in. Are Assyria and Edom and Babylon still around? No. Those ancient nations have fallen and no longer exist, showing that their judgments were fulfilled. Even Egypt of the ancient days is no longer the great empire it was, so its judgment was fulfilled as well.

                    This WAS fulfilled literally! Have you not read the story of the crucifixion? The Gospel accounts tell us that the sun went dark at noon.
                    The passage from Amos says that God would make the sun set at noon. The Gospel accounts didn't say that the sun set at noon, they say that the sky darkened. This is easily explainable as clouds covering the sky, but nowhere do the Gospels says that the sun set as Amos stated. The only way the passage from Amos could be considered to be prophesying the darkening of the sky at Jesus' time of death is if you take the setting of the sun as metaphoric for the sky becoming dark, and even that requires acknowledging that the passage from Amos is at least somewhat non-literal.

                    So what other parts of the Bible shall we take metaphorically? How about Heaven? or how about the Resurrection? or how about the Crucifixion? Where do we draw the line?
                    This is ridiculous. You're drastically stretching what I was saying. I said that the sun-moon-stars expressions were Hebrew idioms. I specifically referred to the sun-moon-stars expression. I didn't say a single thing about heaven or the resurrection or the crucifixion being idioms. You're intentionally twisting what I had said to make it appear that I had suggested we take everything metaphorically when I did no such thing. Again, I was speaking of one topic, being Scriptural use of expression relating to the sun and moon and stars in prophetic manner and that I believe such expressions were metaphoric, and you have twisted my words to make it appear that I was suggesting core beliefs of the Christian faith were nother but metaphors when I said nothing about those cornerstone beliefs.
                    To This Day

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                    • #11
                      I agree with what mark is saying...the bible tells us what is to be literal and what isn't. In Revelation it tells us Jesus will return with a double edge sword coming out of His mouth...we know this isn't to be taken literally...that the sword in this case, is the Word of God.

                      Revelation 1:16
                      He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp two-edged sword came from his mouth. And his face was like the sun in all its brilliance.


                      Hebrews 4:12
                      For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires


                      We know when the sword is literal:

                      Acts 12:2
                      He had the apostle James (John’s brother) killed with a sword.


                      We also don't expect Jesus to return literally holding seven stars in His hand. Either the stars would be tiny or Jesus would be gigantic. further down in Revelation 1 it explains what the stars are along with the lampstands:

                      20 This is the meaning of the mystery of the seven stars you saw in my right hand and the seven gold lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.


                      It does not explain what the sword coming out of Jesus mouth is because more then likely John knew his readers would already know what that meant.

                      We have to remember WHO John was writing his letter too and what those readers of his time would know regarding the bible..mostly the OT as the NT wasn't written yet. What would these things mean to them first and foremost, then we can figure out what they mean to us today.

                      So we draw the line as to what is symbolic and what is literal simply by what the bible tells us is symbolic and what is literal. No more then that otherwise we end up with a misunderstanding of what these scriptures mean.

                      God bless
                      "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by moonglow View Post
                        I agree with what mark is saying...the bible tells us what is to be literal and what isn't. In Revelation it tells us Jesus will return with a double edge sword coming out of His mouth...we know this isn't to be taken literally...that the sword in this case, is the Word of God.

                        Revelation 1:16
                        He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp two-edged sword came from his mouth. And his face was like the sun in all its brilliance.


                        Hebrews 4:12
                        For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires


                        We know when the sword is literal:

                        Acts 12:2
                        He had the apostle James (Johnís brother) killed with a sword.


                        We also don't expect Jesus to return literally holding seven stars in His hand. Either the stars would be tiny or Jesus would be gigantic. further down in Revelation 1 it explains what the stars are along with the lampstands:

                        20 This is the meaning of the mystery of the seven stars you saw in my right hand and the seven gold lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.


                        It does not explain what the sword coming out of Jesus mouth is because more then likely John knew his readers would already know what that meant.

                        We have to remember WHO John was writing his letter too and what those readers of his time would know regarding the bible..mostly the OT as the NT wasn't written yet. What would these things mean to them first and foremost, then we can figure out what they mean to us today.

                        So we draw the line as to what is symbolic and what is literal simply by what the bible tells us is symbolic and what is literal. No more then that otherwise we end up with a misunderstanding of what these scriptures mean.

                        God bless
                        I actually agree with you completely about letting the Bible separate what is to be taken literally vs. symbolically, and the examples you provided are entirely valid. So why should we not take the many prophecies of the sun going dark, the moon turning blood-red, and the sky rolling back like a scroll literally? It is quite true that there are no examples in all of history of an occurrence like that, but there has never been a 2nd Coming of Christ either. If the 2nd Coming is not going to happen precisely as the Bible describes for us, then how will it happen? How can we know?
                        ----------------------------------------------
                        When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

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                        • #13
                          It seems that what we need to consider with the literal, symbolic, metaphorical, idiom, allegorical issue here when discussing it is,... that we all believe the Bible 100% and none of us are saying any part of it has not or will not happen just exactly as written. I mean, even if one of us takes it the moon turning red as symbolism for something, it is still symbolism for something believed that literally has or will take place. What the symbolism stands for did or is going to happen, depending on the view. There are many prophecies in the Bible and depending on the other persons view, I can take what they see symbolically as literal and they can take what I see as literal as symbolically, or vice versa,( you know what I mean) just about verse by verse seeing them just the opposite of the other but that does not mean they or I doubt any one of the prophecies.

                          Lets not get off track and totally derail the discussion. All of us here believe the account of Christ death and resurrection to be literal and 100% accurate. We all agree He will literally return and take us to be with Him forever.

                          We just cant agree on how the prophecies of His return will come to pass. So back to the discussion of Rev 6 which will, one way or the other, be 100% fulfilled. That much we all agree on.


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                          • #14
                            [QUOTE]


                            Agree with most but included some other info. All four are evil, correct. It would not make sense for 3 to be evil and one good? In addition we see "four" beasts in each kingdom (Satan/God) which are four kings ie. kings of the earth. A clue that they are the four beasts of the devil is that is is the four beasts of God which present them to John.



                            The Third Seal ~ Famine/Food shortages/High food prices


                            5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I looked, and there was a black horse. The horseman on it had a balance scale in his hand. 6 Then I heard something like a voice among the four living creatures say, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius—but do not harm the olive oil and the wine."



                            I just want to say when this kingdom of Satan arises, there will be no food prices........The world will be much different than you think. Sael #3 is indicated that this king has control over all supplies but the shortage will only come to those which do not submit and receive the mark.


                            The Fourth Seal ~ ľ earth under Death’s authority & killed via war/famine/plague/disease



                            The 1/4 again is due tot the fact that there are four kings each having control over 1/4. The little horn or king of kings will rule over all.

                            Mark

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                              I actually agree with you completely about letting the Bible separate what is to be taken literally vs. symbolically, and the examples you provided are entirely valid. So why should we not take the many prophecies of the sun going dark, the moon turning blood-red, and the sky rolling back like a scroll literally? It is quite true that there are no examples in all of history of an occurrence like that, but there has never been a 2nd Coming of Christ either. If the 2nd Coming is not going to happen precisely as the Bible describes for us, then how will it happen? How can we know?
                              The promises of God in the bible are literally fulfilled...the expression of wrath by God in the bible are always using symbolically. markedward gave some good examples of that from the bible. Many times in the OT we see the wrath of God being armies from other nations trampling those under God's wrath, though the scriptural expression may say something like the 'heavens shook' and 'star fell' etc. I am just learning this all myself.. but as I said the promises of God are literal. Anyway I want to respect what our moderator, quiet dove, has asked, and stick to the original post at hand.

                              So back to the topic at hand. I also believe the first horseman is Christ not an antichrist. There is no indication that the first rider is out to deceive...no arrow in his hand. And again white is always given as a sign of purity in the bible. People saying they are the Christ has always happened throughout our history and yes people have been deceived by them. In fact before Jerusalem fell there were alot of these types of people going around and deceiving many.

                              What I would like to do here is only present another viewpoint of the horses and their riders. I really don't want to debate it though as that usually leads to no where. So this is just for consideration...to disregard or file away for notes later. Oh by the way, Coffman uses some rather harsh terms here that some might find offensive and I am truly sorry about that as I mean no offense towards those holding other viewpoints.

                              This is from Coffman's bible commentary:

                              It is wrong to read of these continuing scourges of war, famine, and disease as if they were, in any sense, unlimited. The oil and wine were not to be hurt under the black horse, and in the case of the pale horse, even the extensive arsenal of destructive weapons could not give him any authority over anything beyond "the fourth part of the earth." Thus, God's merciful providence for mankind is plainly evident in these awful calamities.

                              Some have been perplexed that God would permit such a thing as the disasters depicted under the last three of these horsemen. Caird thought that, "We may be pardoned for asking whether the Lamb who lets such horrors loose on the world is really the same person as the Jesus of the gospel story." F29 A comment like that is grounded in blindness to the great mercy of God evident even in these four judgments; and also, there is a blindness to the truth that it was not the Lamb who let loose the horrors - that epic mistake belongs to Adam and his posterity. Man, having rebelled against his Creator and being expelled from the Paradise of God, may thank only himself for the manifold miseries which drown the world in sorrows.

                              The progression of these visions is one that exhibits the following: (1) God permits people to continue the enjoyment of freedom of their will. God will not procure obedience through coercion. (2) The progression of disastrous human calamities is not permitted to ravage without limitation, but each of them is limited, a fact that will often recur in subsequent visions. (3) Nor are these terrible riders permitted to go alone.

                              At the head of the van is the white horse with its crowned rider; and all of the others "following" him means that they are not permitted to destroy except under the rules of divine restraint. Moreover, that first rider carries the news of the everlasting gospel, capable of saving all who were ever born on earth. It has the double quality, however, of making even worse those who hear it and reject it, a quality which fully entitles the Rider of the first seal to take his place with the other "judgments" upon mankind, indeed not as their equal, but as their king and leader. For "Neither does the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son" (John 5:22).

                              The above analysis of these four riders absolutely requires that the first be understood as the Lord Jesus Christ. The denial of this can lead to exactly the kind of pessimism mentioned by Caird.

                              "The futurist interpretation holds that these seals refer to terrible judgments upon humanity at the end of this age." However, such an explanation leaves out of sight the undeniable truth that every morning's newspaper carries the account of what these ravaging horsemen are doing, not at some future time, but right now all over the world.

                              ************************************************** *
                              At the link folks can read in more detail about each rider. I realize this view is totally different then the original post and I figure covenant mom would like to discuss her views much more then other people's views, so I will respect that and move on. As I said this is something to just consider...

                              God bless
                              "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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