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  • Something Strange To Me . . .

    Why is it that basically all Christians agree that it is God who saves, only He can enlighten someone to truth, and man cannot and will not see the truth of God's work without God's help, but in the same breath they say that unbelievers are capable of choosing the Lord and they must do so by their own faith? Furthermore, why do so many say that it is by faith that man is saved, and unbelievers are simply refusing to operate in faith that they should already have when Scripture makes it apparent to me that faith comes from and is given by God?

    Do others see the contradiction in this also?
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

  • #2
    Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
    Why is it that basically all Christians agree that it is God who saves, only He can enlighten someone to truth, and man cannot and will not see the truth of God's work without God's help, but in the same breath they say that unbelievers are capable of choosing the Lord and they must do so by their own faith? Furthermore, why do so many say that it is by faith that man is saved, and unbelievers are simply refusing to operate in faith that they should already have when Scripture makes it apparent to me that faith comes from and is given by God?

    Do others see the contradiction in this also?
    Ephesians 2:8
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    It don't matter who else says it, God did, so it is so.

    I think where there is confusion is the thought that unbelievers are capable of choosing by their faith. Unbelievers cannot understand to make the right choice without God opening their eyes to the truth. God does (I believe) give everyone at least one chance to see when His time is right for Him to do so. If the person chooses not to open the door when He knocks there is no promise of a second chance.

    Rom 10:17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    I hope this helps...

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
      Why is it that basically all Christians agree that it is God who saves, only He can enlighten someone to truth, and man cannot and will not see the truth of God's work without God's help, but in the same breath they say that unbelievers are capable of choosing the Lord and they must do so by their own faith? Furthermore, why do so many say that it is by faith that man is saved, and unbelievers are simply refusing to operate in faith that they should already have when Scripture makes it apparent to me that faith comes from and is given by God?

      Do others see the contradiction in this also?
      God makes Himself known to the lost. Everyone knows and has been approached by Him. It is at that point that each must choose, BUT....some people love their sin more than to turn from it.

      John 3:19
      This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

      I have a good friend just like this.

      The choice to turn is tough. If one is willing, God grants the faith to do so.
      Revelation 3:3
      .....If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Illumined View Post
        God makes Himself known to the lost. Everyone knows and has been approached by Him. It is at that point that each must choose, BUT....some people love their sin more than to turn from it.

        John 3:19
        This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

        I have a good friend just like this.

        The choice to turn is tough. If one is willing, God grants the faith to do so.
        God making Himself known is not the issue. The issue is that even though mankind knows about God they still run from Him. Of course God has made Himself known to all men. That is completely true and biblical. However, the Word also says that it is God that saves. So, if all men run from God, and it is God that changes mankind so that they can be saved, where does that leave us so that we don't fall into ditches and contradict ourselves?
        "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

        -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
          God making Himself known is not the issue. The issue is that even though mankind knows about God they still run from Him. Of course God has made Himself known to all men. That is completely true and biblical. However, the Word also says that it is God that saves. So, if all men run from God, and it is God that changes mankind so that they can be saved, where does that leave us so that we don't fall into ditches and contradict ourselves?

          Heb 13:5Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

          It leaves us "never left". We can still fall into the ditch but we are not the same as we once was. We have something that we used to not have. We have Christ who will pull us from the ditch and keep us on the right path.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
            Why is it that basically all Christians agree that it is God who saves, only He can enlighten someone to truth, and man cannot and will not see the truth of God's work without God's help, but in the same breath they say that unbelievers are capable of choosing the Lord and they must do so by their own faith? Furthermore, why do so many say that it is by faith that man is saved, and unbelievers are simply refusing to operate in faith that they should already have when Scripture makes it apparent to me that faith comes from and is given by God?

            Do others see the contradiction in this also?
            The contradiction comes from people listening to too many different denominations. They listen to theologies and doctrine that are man made and they don't challenge those doctrines using scripture.

            God saves because He made a way for us to be saved. That is through faith in Christ Jesus.

            When God created you and me he gave us the ability to choose to be saved or not. To receive God's forgivess or not, to receieve the promise of the Father or not. All God did is make a way. It's like s road map. But we are the ones who chose to go on that journey the road map leads to.

            So what do you choose?
            Amazzin

            Obedience to God is more than a soldier obeying his commander. It is our grateful response to the Lover of our souls.

            CHURCH: Where worship is enjoyed, not endured - Grace is preached, not legalism - And Christ is exalted, not religion!



            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Buck shot View Post
              Heb 13:5Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

              It leaves us "never left". We can still fall into the ditch but we are not the same as we once was. We have something that we used to not have. We have Christ who will pull us from the ditch and keep us on the right path.
              I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say here. The question is . . .

              If unbelievers run from God . . . and unbelievers cannot save themselves . . . and they can't choose to all of a sudden turn in God's direction . . .

              Then how are they supposed to choose by faith to live for the Lord?
              "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

              -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

              Comment


              • #8
                See what your're saying

                Why is it that basically all Christians agree that it is God who saves, only He can enlighten someone to truth, and man cannot and will not see the truth of God's work without God's help, but in the same breath they say that unbelievers are capable of choosing the Lord and they must do so by their own faith? Furthermore, why do so many say that it is by faith that man is saved, and unbelievers are simply refusing to operate in faith that they should already have when Scripture makes it apparent to me that faith comes from and is given by God?

                Do others see the contradiction in this also?
                I believe the faith the non-Christian acquires is through God via his Word/bible. As faith cometh by hearing the Word.
                Psa 122:1 I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by amazzin View Post
                  The contradiction comes from people listening to too many different denominations. They listen to theologies and doctrine that are man made and they don't challenge those doctrines using scripture.

                  God saves because He made a way for us to be saved. That is through faith in Christ Jesus.

                  When God created you and me he gave us the ability to choose to be saved or not. To receive God's forgivess or not, to receieve the promise of the Father or not. All God did is make a way. It's like s road map. But we are the ones who chose to go on that journey the road map leads to.

                  So what do you choose?
                  So, you would say that God is not willing that any should perish, but also that many will reject God's will and choose otherwise, correct?

                  What would you then proclaim to those who say God's will cannot be successfully opposed or thwarted?
                  "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                  -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                    So, you would say that God is not willing that any should perish, but also that many will reject God's will and choose otherwise, correct?

                    What would you then say to those who say God's will cannot be successfully opposed or thwarted?
                    Yes, and I don't want to get into a Once saved always saved discussion because I beleive that discussion is evil and demonic.

                    But to answer your last question; God's will cannot be opposed or thwarted but let it be no surprise, the Word of God already states what His perfect will is. It is not something that comes to us out of the blue
                    Amazzin

                    Obedience to God is more than a soldier obeying his commander. It is our grateful response to the Lover of our souls.

                    CHURCH: Where worship is enjoyed, not endured - Grace is preached, not legalism - And Christ is exalted, not religion!



                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by amazzin View Post
                      Yes, and I don't want to get into a Once saved always saved discussion because I beleive that discussion is evil and demonic.

                      But to answer your last question; God's will cannot be opposed or thwarted but let it be no surprise, the Word of God already states what His perfect will is. It is not something that comes to us out of the blue
                      Well, this really isn't a "once saved always saved" discussion but more an arminian/reformed/universalist discussion. It seems to me that all three of those teachings fall into ditches, so it makes me leary to accept any of them.

                      But anyway, if God's will is that all come to repentance and God's will cannot be thrwarted then how do you reconcile that with teachings that all will not be saved and there will be an eternal punishment?
                      "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                      -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                        Well, this really isn't a "once saved always saved" discussion but more an arminian/reformed/universalist discussion. It seems to me that all three of those teachings fall into ditches, so it makes me leary to accept any of them.

                        But anyway, if God's will is that all come to repentance and God's will cannot be thrwarted then how do you reconcile that with teachings that all will not be saved and there will be an eternal punishment?
                        Easy,...God gives the invitation and we either accept it or we don't. Those who don't go for an eternal bath in very hot coals!
                        Amazzin

                        Obedience to God is more than a soldier obeying his commander. It is our grateful response to the Lover of our souls.

                        CHURCH: Where worship is enjoyed, not endured - Grace is preached, not legalism - And Christ is exalted, not religion!



                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by amazzin View Post
                          Easy,...God gives the invitation and we either accept it or we don't. Those who don't go for an eternal bath in very hot coals!
                          And that, being the arminian viewpoint, falls into the ditch that God's will is that none perish, His will cannot be thwarted, but still many will perish anyway.
                          "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                          -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Here's the ditches as I see them . . .

                            Arminian -- God's will that none should perish is not accomplished but rather thwarted by man's own free will.

                            Reformed -- God is willing, and in fact has destined, that many folks will go to hell.

                            Univeralist -- Has to interpret a different meaning for "eternal" throughout the Scriptures that doesn't all the time mean "eternal".
                            "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

                            -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by VerticalReality View Post
                              I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say here. The question is . . .

                              If unbelievers run from God . . .
                              No "if", they do not want to be in the light.

                              and unbelievers cannot save themselves . . .
                              true, true...

                              and they can't choose to all of a sudden turn in God's direction . . .
                              I would think when God calls us and all of the sudden we understand, this is when we turned.

                              Then how are they supposed to choose by faith to live for the Lord?
                              Because this is what the Bible says...
                              Mark 2:5
                              When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

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