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  • HELP Peter = Rock Refutation

    I am a new Christian. I am currently being approached by some Roman Catholic friends that are attempting to convince me that the true church is only found through Rome. Their basis for this claim is in the Matthew Passage referring to "rock and keys" and the John passage "feed my sheep". Their external references consist of references to Early Church Fathers and "it's always been that way".

    Both of these friends are attending a Roman Catholic institution, one is studying theology and the other philosophy. I am attending a local state funded school studying psychology. There is a gap in the availability of resources between our two parties. I believe that I have found a successful refutation of their claims that "The Early Church Fathers regarded Peter as the rock upon which the church of Christ is built." I am, however, a new Christian and I would seriously request advisement in this matter before I bring this argument to my friends (maybe a month or two from now) at length.

    Would anyone be so kind as to spend some time investigating the links below and to comment on them? I would really appreciate some insight, here.

    Also, I do solidly believe that the true rock of the Church of God is Jesus Christ and that the foundation upon which the church is built is Jesus Christ and faith in Him. This Holy Church of which Peter was the first (sequentially) of many. I am seeking guidance as to the validity of these refutations. Thank you all!

    The link below go straight to William Webster's refuations of the RCC claim "The Early Church Fathers recognize Peter a the rock of the Church." as described above.

    http://www.christiantruth.com/fathersmt16.html

    thank you all and God bless!

    Christopher

  • #2
    Originally posted by renthead188 View Post
    I am a new Christian. I am currently being approached by some Roman Catholic friends that are attempting to convince me that the true church is only found through Rome. Their basis for this claim is in the Matthew Passage referring to "rock and keys" and the John passage "feed my sheep". Their external references consist of references to Early Church Fathers and "it's always been that way".

    Both of these friends are attending a Roman Catholic institution, one is studying theology and the other philosophy. I am attending a local state funded school studying psychology. There is a gap in the availability of resources between our two parties. I believe that I have found a successful refutation of their claims that "The Early Church Fathers regarded Peter as the rock upon which the church of Christ is built." I am, however, a new Christian and I would seriously request advisement in this matter before I bring this argument to my friends (maybe a month or two from now) at length.

    Would anyone be so kind as to spend some time investigating the links below and to comment on them? I would really appreciate some insight, here.

    Also, I do solidly believe that the true rock of the Church of God is Jesus Christ and that the foundation upon which the church is built is Jesus Christ and faith in Him. This Holy Church of which Peter was the first (sequentially) of many. I am seeking guidance as to the validity of these refutations. Thank you all!

    The link below go straight to William Webster's refuations of the RCC claim "The Early Church Fathers recognize Peter a the rock of the Church." as described above.

    http://www.christiantruth.com/fathersmt16.html

    thank you all and God bless!

    Christopher
    The "Rock" referred to in Matthew is not Rome or Peter but the foundational truth that Jesus is truth, the life the only way to God. The "Keys' are not literal keys but the principles taught by Christ for how we are to live an abundant life.
    Amazzin

    Obedience to God is more than a soldier obeying his commander. It is our grateful response to the Lover of our souls.

    CHURCH: Where worship is enjoyed, not endured - Grace is preached, not legalism - And Christ is exalted, not religion!



    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by amazzin View Post
      The "Rock" referred to in Matthew is not Rome or Peter but the foundational truth that Jesus is truth, the life the only way to God. The "Keys' are not literal keys but the principles taught by Christ for how we are to live an abundant life.
      I am aware of this. Please read my entire post. My concern is with presenting a successful refutation of this distortion to my Roman Catholic friends who have (since my conversion) been barraging me with pro-RCC books and remarks, even mocking those outside of their supposed "true" church. I intend to present a successful refuation of their statements when they return home after this semester. I seek assistance.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by renthead188 View Post
        I am aware of this. Please read my entire post. My concern is with presenting a successful refutation of this distortion to my Roman Catholic friends who have (since my conversion) been barraging me with pro-RCC books and remarks, even mocking those outside of their supposed "true" church. I intend to present a successful refuation of their statements when they return home after this semester. I seek assistance.
        There's no [good] reason to think 'rock' refers to anything but Jesus. Otherwise the interpretation is esiegetical. Basically the refutation is, "look at the passage, it's obviously not referring to Peter". If they want to argue 'early church fathers' (who would have been wrong if they said it referred to Peter) then you're wasting your time, presently.

        Just goes to show what poor theology and bad philosophy will do to people ;\

        Comment


        • #5
          Some scriptures about the Rock and the keys.

          Jesus has the keys.
          • Matthew 16:19 "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven"
          • Revelation 1:18 "I am he thatliveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; andhave the keys of hell and of death."
          • Revelation 3:7 "These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth"
          Jesus gives the Kingdom of Heaven to whomever He wills, not solely to Peter.



          Jesus is the Rock.
          • Deuteronomy 32:3 "Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
          • II Samuel 23:3 "The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me"
          • 2 Corinthians 10:4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."


          Peter was a sinful servant, like those who lived before and after him; who followed the true Rock, who held the true Keys.

          Ask your RCC friends why they are esteeming Peter, instead of Jesus? And of whom should their esteem be given to.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hmmmm Catholics you say?

            You won't get far quoting scripture. They might be convinved, but they will probably just look for other justifications. Hit them where it hurts - Church fathers.

            http://www.christiantruth.com/mt16.html

            Here is history flatly contradicting what they are telling you about the Papacy.

            Also, ask them why there were no Papal Encyclicals until the middle ages (around the time of the development of the modern papacy).

            Comment


            • #7
              I do appreciate all of your responses, I really do. I was first convinced from The Word that the rock of The Church is Jesus Christ upon my first reading of Matthew, however "proof texting" is useless because they will simply refer to the "feed the sheep" verse in John and I to the parable of the house upon the rock and sand. We will run in circles. The specific intention of my post was and is as follows:

              My friends have asserted that from their interpretation of Scripture "The Church" (they are careful to refer to RCC as THE Church) has always believed that Peter is the Rock. They have attempted to back this up with the statement that "The Early Church Fathers believed this as well."

              The argument is now out of The Bible. The opinion of the ECF is not the be all/ end all in this matter, but it can be influential in deciding what the original interpretation of this passage was. It is clear to me from the link that I had provided http://www.christiantruth.com/fathersmt16.html and the other http://www.christiantruth.com/mt16.html that the ECF did NOT believe that Peter was the rock and they in fact believed that Christ is The Rock and that upon this rock and the confession of faith in HIM alone, was the church built. Peter's Primacy was not one of Jurisdiction but was simply sequential in that Peter happened to be the first of many to come.

              My question, is, what do you all make of the writings found at the link? Are the sources reliable, does anyone know? I have little to no background in Churh History but the Truth speaks on it's own. I just don't want to cloud it up...

              What about the "real presence" doctrine? Anybody have any references to read about the Church Father's view of this? I cannot, in all good conscience, see how anyone can conclude this after a slow and careul reading of John 6.

              Christopher

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by David Taylor View Post
                Some scriptures about the Rock and the keys.

                Jesus has the keys.
                • Matthew 16:19 "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven"
                • Revelation 1:18 "I am he thatliveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; andhave the keys of hell and of death."
                • Revelation 3:7 "These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth"
                Jesus gives the Kingdom of Heaven to whomever He wills, not solely to Peter.



                Jesus is the Rock.
                • Deuteronomy 32:3 "Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
                • II Samuel 23:3 "The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me"
                • 2 Corinthians 10:4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

                Peter was a sinful servant, like those who lived before and after him; who followed the true Rock, who held the true Keys.

                Ask your RCC friends why they are esteeming Peter, instead of Jesus? And of whom should their esteem be given to.

                Excellent post David
                Jesus is the rock. Also one key fact is that Paul was sent to the Gentiles, not Peter. Paul's letters make up most of the New Testament. Paul established the church in Rome. If anybody is going to be confused with establishing the catholic chuch in Rome it would be Paul not Peter. Peter's office was inward, that's to say to the Jews not Gentiles.
                I didnt know the link didnt work

                Comment


                • #9
                  My question, is, what do you all make of the writings found at the link? Are the sources reliable, does anyone know? I have little to no background in Churh History but the Truth speaks on it's own. I just don't want to cloud it up...
                  The sources are very reliable. Another good point would be to consider the Orthodox Church. The reason it exists today is because not all of Christendom decided to follow the Roman Church.

                  What about the "real presence" doctrine? Anybody have any references to read about the Church Father's view of this? I cannot, in all good conscience, see how anyone can conclude this after a slow and careul reading of John 6.
                  http://www.catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp

                  The people at CA have a library of quotes from the early church fathers. They believed, without a doubt, in the Real Presence.

                  Here you will run into a problem with the Catholics. We, as Protestants, do not accept the ECF (early church fathers) as authoritative.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Catholics are Christians

                    So these guys want to give yu good reasons to join there church, so what. If they care about yu and yur all Christians give them their points. It doesn t hurt.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by BlessedMan View Post
                      So these guys want to give yu good reasons to join there church, so what. If they care about yu and yur all Christians give them their points. It doesn t hurt.
                      Yes - They put their faith in Jesus Christ and that's AWESOME!

                      but it doesn't make a lot of the other things that they do alright.

                      "Giving them their points" it alright - letting them proclaim that I'm in danger of leaving Christ if I'm not RC - that's something else entirely.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KATA_LOUKAN View Post
                        The sources are very reliable. Another good point would be to consider the Orthodox Church. The reason it exists today is because not all of Christendom decided to follow the Roman Church.



                        http://www.catholic.com/library/Real_Presence.asp

                        The people at CA have a library of quotes from the early church fathers. They believed, without a doubt, in the Real Presence.

                        Here you will run into a problem with the Catholics. We, as Protestants, do not accept the ECF (early church fathers) as authoritative.
                        Thank you! These guys refer to the early church fathers nearly ever time I see them. We can hardly talk about Christ without "Well, Augustine said..." so I know that they hold them in high esteem, if not authority. They have told me that the Early Church Fathers support the exclusiveness of Peter = Rock and I am glad to find that they are mistaken in this. I will present this to them, if this is successfully proven maybe the RC claim to "real presence" will be given some more thought. I don't have much more to offer them on that than a careful examination of John's Gospel and "I prayed about it and I knew for sure... this is NOT His physical body."

                        Thank you very much!

                        Christopher
                        Hmmm I can see how I can logically point out the weakness in the "real presence" argument from within the text. Whether or not it will fall on receptive ears, that's another story indeed.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          the rock does not refer to peter, but peter's testimony(Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior). Jesus is the rock, not peter.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'll throw my thoughts in the mix...

                            First the scripture...

                            Matt. 16
                            13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter(4074), and upon this rock(4073) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

                            If we look at the scripture in context Jesus was asking who others said that He was? Some of the apostles answered. Then He asked who do you said that I am? Peter answers and says You are the Christ, the son of the living God. Jesus didn't tell Peter this God revealed it to him. Immediately, Jesus says and upon this rock I will build my church. Jesus is not referring to Peter. He is referring to the answer that Peter gave. That is the principle that the church was founded on and there is no other foundation that it could be built on. Now I do believe that verse 19 does refer to Peter. For it would be his charge to lead the others and establish the church.


                            Second the Greek...
                            1. petra (πέτρα, 4073) denotes “a mass of rock,” as distinct from petros (4074), “a detached stone or boulder,”
                            If the first part was not enough here we see that it is 2 different Greek words being referred to. One meaning a mass of rock (in red) and the other witch is what Peter is in the Greek (in blue). This alone should be enough to show that Jesus was not referring to Peter but what Peter said!

                            Some verses that might help this make more sense...

                            Luke 6:48
                            He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock (petra...not petros): and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

                            1 Corinthians 3:10-11
                            According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

                            For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


                            Ephesians 2:20
                            And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

                            None of these verses imply that Peter is that foundation...It clearly states that Jesus is that foundation and that all points back to what Peter says and what Jesus is really referring to.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BlessedMan View Post
                              So these guys want to give yu good reasons to join there church, so what. If they care about yu and yur all Christians give them their points. It doesn t hurt.
                              But it's clear from Christopher's posts that they don't care about him - they're mocking his biblical faith and are arrogantly asserting that only their chruch is the true church. Nothing caring or Christian about that.....

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