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  • Ephesians 2 & 3 Questions

    Eph. 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
    What is the “both one” here?


    Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
    What is the one new man?


    God broke down the wall SO THAT He might make in Himself One New Man?

    Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    What is the “one body” here?


    God broke down the wall SO THAT He might reconcile both in one body?

    Who is God reconciling here?

    Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    Eph 2:19 ¶ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God
    Who are the saints with whom Gentiles are fellow citizens?

    Eph. 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    1) Fellowheirs with who?

    2) What is the “same body”?
    3) Partakers with who?
    4) What promise?

  • #2
    Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
    What is the “both one” here?

    What is the one new man?

    God broke down the wall SO THAT He might make in Himself One New Man?

    What is the “one body” here?

    God broke down the wall SO THAT He might reconcile both in one body?

    Who is God reconciling here?



    Who are the saints with whom Gentiles are fellow citizens?

    1) Fellowheirs with who?
    2) What is the “same body”?
    3) Partakers with who?
    4) What promise?
    Ephesians 2:13-18 is on "the means of union". Man's brokenness was twofold:man was separated from man, that is, Gentile from Jew (v13-15); and man was separated from God (v16-18). The healing is likewise twofold: the creation of a unified humanity, the Church, and the raising of this unified humanity to God. The Incarnation of the Son of God did the former; His death and Resurrection did the latter. The whole Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, act together (v18 see v22).

    "The middle wall of separation" (v14) probably refers to the barrier in the temple separating the Court of the Gentiles from the Court of the Jews. This barrier manifested the limitations of the old covenant. It did not heal humanity's self-alienation, and it actually increased human hostility. Now that this wall is "broken down, both Gentiles and Jews are reconciled and one in Christ.

    "Same body" is Christ, there is only One. (Gal. 3:28)
    The "Promise" is the Holy Spirit as spoken of by Joel. (Joel 2:28 or 3:1 depending on what version of scripture you use).

    Eph. 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    All are fellowheirs in Christ, the One Body which unites us all by His "Promise" (Spirit). This is the content of the revelation mentioned in v3, that "through the gospel" the Gentiles should be united with the Jews, so that a united and renewed humanity is brought to God.

    Comment


    • #3
      Howdy LookingUp,
      Nice to meet you.

      Very good questions I'll do my best to answer.

      Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
      What is the “both one” here?

      What is the one new man?

      God broke down the wall SO THAT He might make in Himself One New Man?

      What is the “one body” here?

      God broke down the wall SO THAT He might reconcile both in one body?

      Who is God reconciling here?
      Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are
      called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by
      hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the
      commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no
      hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were
      far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.


      Paul here is talking about Jews(Circumcision) and Gentiles(Uncircumcision) coming
      together as one assembly or "Body".

      We who are Gentiles as it is said were "strangers from the covenants of promise".
      Now we have been grafted in. We've been "brought near". The promise has been
      extended to me, though I was not born a Jew.

      Christ is an equal opportunity saviour. It makes no difference in race, gender,
      age...etc.

      So the "both one" is the Jews and Gentiles coming together in the assembly to form
      one body. Which is Christ's Body.

      The wall of seperation is referencing the temple veil that sepperated the Holy of
      Holies from the rest of the temple. God tore the temple veil that sepperated
      himself from man. In the same way, man (Jew or Gentile) should not construct a
      wall or veil between our brothers or sisters.

      God reconciled all believers in Himself.

      As to the new man, each believer after being indwelt with the Holy Spirit begins the
      process of sanctification. We are "made anew" or "born again". No longer living as
      we once were, but now living for God, our saviour.

      To connect this with the one body question...

      When we are "made anew" and join a church which is an assembly of believers we
      take part within that body. We become the hands and feet...etc. of Christ. Though
      we are many individual parts we operate as one.

      Who are the saints with whom Gentiles are fellow citizens?

      All beleivers are equal heirs in salvation.

      1) Fellowheirs with who?


      Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which
      He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with
      Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit
      together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might
      show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

      God in his "great" love. Not an itty bitty love not even an ordinary love, but a
      "great" love "made us alive with Christ". Just as Christ rose from the dead so shall
      all believers. We all will "sit together". We all take part in the "exceeding riches of
      His grace".

      2) What is the “same body”?

      See above

      3) Partakers with who?

      See above

      4) What promise?

      Peace with God, salvation from sin and everlasting life.


      Hope this helps.
      KingFisher
      When I say... "I am a Christian", I'm not shouting "I'm clean livin."
      I'm whispering "I was lost, Now I'm found and forgiven".

      Comment


      • #4
        This issue is far more difficult to explain than to simply address Ephesians.

        It has been dealt with variously, but there are two extremes:

        1. Classical Dispensationalism (the Church and Israel are totally separated).

        2. Replacement Theology (The Church has replaced Israel).

        The truth, (IMO), is somewhere between these two extremes.

        The fact is, there is another group mentioned in the scriptures, which solves the entire issue, and which is seldom addressed by either of these extremes.

        It is called "the remnant of Israel".

        Paul first mentions them in Romans 9 when he declares "....they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...."

        In this one statement he sets up a division in Israel which most in Israel did not understand, and still do not, and which many in the Church today are also (seemingly) unaware.

        This group that is not Israel, is still OF Israel.

        Let me allow Paul to explain further:

        Rom 9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

        Later in the passage (he addresses the issue for three chapters) he concludes with this:

        Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

        Now, in terms of Israel being seen as ONE group, these two statements are contradictory. But if we see Israel as a group, with a group. Or better stated, if see a true (spiritual) Israel and an Israel according to the flesh, then we can begin to see the point Paul is making.

        It helps to understand why he is addressing the issue at all. It is actually the same reasons that the dispensational and replacement systems have been developed. Specifically, it is because of the question "What happens to Israel, Gods chosen people, now that they have rejected their promised Messiah?"

        The answer is, "Nothing new has happened!"

        In fact, God has always had a remnant within Israel who were the faithful among them, and the rest were simply blinded. This was the case upon Jesus' first advent. There were only a handful who were truly believers, and that small Jewish group became the Church.

        Later, the Gentiles were added to their number. But they do not replace Israel, neither are they separate from them, but they have been "graft in among them".

        Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
        Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

        Here we have the stake in the heart of both of the afore mentioned systems.

        Obviously, the Gentiles (once baptized into the Church) have been graft in among Israel, partaking of their blessing. And just as obviously, Gentiles in the Church do not replace Israel, as they are warned not to "boast" against them. The remnant of Israel is in the Church, and the Gentiles are blessed to be partakers with them in that. In a way, there is similarly a remnant of the Gentiles in the Church too. Point is, the two groups have a group within them chosen by God for salvation.

        Now, regarding the rest who have been blinded:

        Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
        Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
        Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
        Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
        Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

        So, the the remnant of Israel is saved according to the election of grace.

        Israel, has not obtained, but the elect (among them) have, and "the rest" were blinded. How long have they been blinded? (At least) from the time of the giving of the scripture in vs 8, "unto this day".

        Paul calls them "branches broken" away from the "good tree".

        Here is the kicker....they are still "Israel".

        Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

        Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
        Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
        Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
        Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
        Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

        Please note that "the natural branches" are yet natural even broken away from the good tree. And note too, that the unnatural branches remain unnatural, even graft into the tree.

        And what is the condition to be graft in?

        Believe in Christ.

        And the result?

        A member of the Church.

        So, to answer the questions in the OP, he has "made both one" and has "broken down the middle wall of partition between us". ("Us" being Israel and the Gentiles). And the "promise in Christ through the gospel" pertains to the progressive fulfillment of all Israels covenants, including the New Covenant for which the Church is minister (2 Cor 3:6). It is thr promise to Israel of the kingdom of God. It is the same as Jesus promised:

        Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Superfundy View Post
          This issue is far more difficult to explain than to simply address Ephesians.

          It has been dealt with variously, but there are two extremes:

          1. Classical Dispensationalism (the Church and Israel are totally separated).

          2. Replacement Theology (The Church has replaced Israel).

          The truth, (IMO), is somewhere between these two extremes.

          The fact is, there is another group mentioned in the scriptures, which solves the entire issue, and which is seldom addressed by either of these extremes.
          Actually it is far more simple than explaining scripture, it is as simple as Jesus Christ.

          Theological debate of this type puts me in mind of a story from scripture in Mark.

          Mar 2:4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken [it] up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

          This is a picture of Jesus among theological debate. Imagine all these folks "the press" around Jesus listening to Him and talking among themselves about what He has to say. And then there are those who only want to be healed by Him. Though the story goes that they were able to uncover the roof where He was, nowadays it is God who must uncover the roof for those in need of healing amidst all the theological debate, to get to Him and be healed.
          But their faith enabled them to do just that, which He had come to do for humanity.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Teke View Post
            Actually it is far more simple than explaining scripture, it is as simple as Jesus Christ.

            Theological debate of this type puts me in mind of a story from scripture in Mark.

            Mar 2:4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken [it] up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

            This is a picture of Jesus among theological debate. Imagine all these folks "the press" around Jesus listening to Him and talking among themselves about what He has to say. And then there are those who only want to be healed by Him. Though the story goes that they were able to uncover the roof where He was, nowadays it is God who must uncover the roof for those in need of healing amidst all the theological debate, to get to Him and be healed.
            But their faith enabled them to do just that, which He had come to do for humanity.
            Interesting.

            I think the point is that, since the scriptures find it necessary to address these issues, the Church has found it necessary to debate them after the fact, in order to get to the truth regarding HOW God is going about to perform that healing.

            While babes in Christ can be satified with the simple truth of their own salvation, as we mature God leads us into deeper truths (Heb 5:12-14). This is (IMO) so that we always have something drawing us on in Christ. Leading to an ever deeper understanding, and thereby, an ever deeper relationship with Him.

            Of course, these are not issues for the young in the Lord, but it is good for them to be exposed to them.

            Just my opinion.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
              Eph. 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
              What is the “both one” here?
              Jew and Gentile believers.

              Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
              What is the one new man?


              God broke down the wall SO THAT He might make in Himself One New Man?
              One body of Christ, one church.

              28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Gal 3:28-29

              Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

              What is the “one body” here?


              God broke down the wall SO THAT He might reconcile both in one body?

              Who is God reconciling here?
              The body of Christ, which is the church. God is reconciling both Jew and Gentile believers into the one body of Christ. As Galatians 3:28 says, we are all one in Christ Jesus and there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

              Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
              Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
              Eph 2:19 ¶ Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God
              Who are the saints with whom Gentiles are fellow citizens?
              Jewish believers.

              Eph. 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
              1) Fellowheirs with who?
              Jewish believers

              2) What is the “same body”?
              The body of Christ. The church.

              3) Partakers with who?
              Jewish believers

              4) What promise?
              The gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Superfundy View Post
                Interesting.

                I think the point is that, since the scriptures find it necessary to address these issues, the Church has found it necessary to debate them after the fact, in order to get to the truth regarding HOW God is going about to perform that healing.

                While babes in Christ can be satified with the simple truth of their own salvation, as we mature God leads us into deeper truths (Heb 5:12-14). This is (IMO) so that we always have something drawing us on in Christ. Leading to an ever deeper understanding, and thereby, an ever deeper relationship with Him.

                Of course, these are not issues for the young in the Lord, but it is good for them to be exposed to them.

                Just my opinion.
                Yes, soteriology is a good thing to study, but that is not all there is to learn. Trinity theology is for the more mature. And yes, we all grow in our experience of Him which increases our understanding.
                I agree the young should eventually learn of these things if they so choose to by the Spirit leading.

                To paraphrase another, "a babe can drink from the scriptures, yet they are deep enough for the theologian to never reach the bottom".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Teke View Post
                  Yes, soteriology is a good thing to study, but that is not all there is to learn. Trinity theology is for the more mature. And yes, we all grow in our experience of Him which increases our understanding.
                  I agree the young should eventually learn of these things if they so choose to by the Spirit leading.

                  To paraphrase another, "a babe can drink from the scriptures, yet they are deep enough for the theologian to never reach the bottom".
                  Amen.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Teke View Post
                    Ephesians 2:13-18 is on "the means of union". Man's brokenness was twofold:man was separated from man, that is, Gentile from Jew (v13-15); and man was separated from God (v16-18). The healing is likewise twofold: the creation of a unified humanity, the Church, and the raising of this unified humanity to God. The Incarnation of the Son of God did the former; His death and Resurrection did the latter. The whole Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, act together (v18 see v22).

                    "The middle wall of separation" (v14) probably refers to the barrier in the temple separating the Court of the Gentiles from the Court of the Jews. This barrier manifested the limitations of the old covenant. It did not heal humanity's self-alienation, and it actually increased human hostility. Now that this wall is "broken down, both Gentiles and Jews are reconciled and one in Christ.

                    "Same body" is Christ, there is only One. (Gal. 3:28)
                    The "Promise" is the Holy Spirit as spoken of by Joel. (Joel 2:28 or 3:1 depending on what version of scripture you use).

                    Eph. 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

                    All are fellowheirs in Christ, the One Body which unites us all by His "Promise" (Spirit). This is the content of the revelation mentioned in v3, that "through the gospel" the Gentiles should be united with the Jews, so that a united and renewed humanity is brought to God.
                    Thanks for your input Teke!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingFisher View Post
                      Howdy LookingUp,
                      Nice to meet you.

                      Very good questions I'll do my best to answer....

                      Hope this helps.
                      KingFisher
                      Nice to meet you to KingFisher and thanks for the reply!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Superfundy View Post
                        ...Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
                        Interesting. So how do you see this all play out at the end of the 70th week? Who are they that are no longer blinded at the fullness of the Gentiles? “…a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and so all Israel will be saved… when I take away their sins.” Who does this blind Israel represent? Who does this Israel represent who will have their sins taken away when the Deliverer comes from Zion?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by John146 View Post
                          Jew and Gentile believers.

                          One body of Christ, one church.

                          28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Gal 3:28-29

                          The body of Christ, which is the church. God is reconciling both Jew and Gentile believers into the one body of Christ. As Galatians 3:28 says, we are all one in Christ Jesus and there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

                          Jewish believers.

                          Jewish believers

                          The body of Christ. The church.

                          Jewish believers

                          The gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ.
                          Thanks for your reply.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LookingUp View Post
                            Interesting. So how do you see this all play out at the end of the 70th week? Who are they that are no longer blinded at the fullness of the Gentiles? “…a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and so all Israel will be saved… when I take away their sins.” Who does this blind Israel represent? Who does this Israel represent who will have their sins taken away when the Deliverer comes from Zion?
                            This Israel, which is the Israel of God (Good Olive Tree):

                            6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
                            8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. - Rom 9:6-8

                            11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
                            12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
                            13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

                            The Deliverer/Redeemer already came to take away sins.

                            The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. - John 1:29

                            5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. - 1 John 3:5

                            27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. - Matt 26:27-28

                            67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
                            69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
                            70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
                            71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
                            72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
                            73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
                            74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
                            75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

                            Comment

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