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  • Problems with the Post-trib rapture position

    I see several things that cause problems with a post-trib rapture and have not had them cleared up for me.


    When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.

    The view that the seals are an overview of the 70th week and that the trumpets and bowls run concurrently with them creates several big problems.

    1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???

    Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
    Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL!

    After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??

    These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.

    The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well.

    Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….


    1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54



    Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.

    I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
    The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.

    2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:52


    Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

    I do not agree. 1st Cor. was written approx. 40 years before Revelation. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
    More likely, is that he was using an analogy that his readers would understand. N.T. authors often used cultural analogies to make their points clear.
    The analogy would be that the last trumpet when we are raptured would be like the call to assembly which was used in Roman games or in a military context. There was usually a preliminary trumpet or two blown and the last one would be the call to assembly. This would definitely make sense in reference to the rapture in which all believers will be called and gathered together (assembled) with the trumpet of God!
    Also, the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 is called the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and it is Christ himself who blows the trumpet at the rapture in 1 Thess. as well as in Matt. 24:32. This is not the same as the 7th trumpet because angels blow the trumpets in Rev., not Christ.

    3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. Rev. 10:7
    Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished.


    The church was a mystery, but Paul makes it clear that once the church was formed, the mystery was revealed. Ephesians 3:5-6
    The mystery of God to be finished at the 7th trumpet can’t be the church.






    sigpic

  • #2
    Read thru Deuteronomy chapter 32...esp. verse 34.
    Last edited by vinsight4u8; Mar 30th 2008, 10:31 AM.
    http://prophecyinsights.com

    Comment


    • #3
      Truthinlove, you wouldn't be aiming this at anybody in particular, would you?

      But seriously, I need to get to bed so I don't fall asleep during the sermon in 9 hours! (That would be especially bad for me since I run the sound! )

      I promise I'll come back in here tomorrow, er uh, later today, and post a reply to silence all the critics. (I'm sure it probably won't work, but hey, we gotta do our best, huh? )
      ----------------------------------------------
      When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

      Comment


      • #4
        Rev. 22:12 shows us that Jesus will come with His reward - then notice that towards the end of Rev. 11 (where the trumpet story is just being given - and no trumpet events at this point are actually being seen by John - what happens?

        Rev. 11:18

        reward time is announced

        so - links right up with Rev. 22:12
        http://prophecyinsights.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Truthinlove, you wouldn't be aiming this at anybody in particular, would you?
          Who me????

          But seriously, I need to get to bed so I don't fall asleep during the sermon in 9 hours! (That would be especially bad for me since I run the sound! )
          True, that wouldn't be good..hehehe

          I promise I'll come back in here tomorrow, er uh, later today, and post a reply to silence all the critics. (I'm sure it probably won't work, but hey, we gotta do our best, huh? )
          Alrighty
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #6
            Vinsight,
            Could you answer the specific problems I brought up in the OP?
            I would prefer the thread to not be derailed, at least this early on.
            sigpic

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
              I see several things that cause problems with a post-trib rapture and have not had them cleared up for me.

              Scripture gives it that the gathering of the saints in the resurrection is after the tribulation even if not exactly immediately.--

              Mat 24:29 And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
              Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory. Dan. 7:13

              Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice out of Heaven saying to me, Write: Blessed are the dead, the ones dying in the Lord from now. Yes, says the Spirit, they shall rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.
              Rev 14:14 And I saw; and behold, a white cloud and on the cloud One sitting like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.
              Rev 14:15 And another angel went forth out of the temple, crying in a great voice to the One sitting on the cloud, Send Your sickle and reap, because Your hour to reap came, because the harvest of the earth was dried.
              Rev 14:16 And the One sitting on the cloud thrust His sickle onto the earth, and the earth was reaped.


              Rev 11:7 And when they complete their witness, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war with them, and will overcome them, and will kill them.
              Rev 11:8 And their bodies will be on the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom, and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified.
              Rev 11:9 And some from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will see their dead bodies three days and a half; and they do not allow their dead bodies to be put in tombs.
              Rev 11:10 And those living on the earth will rejoice over them, and will make merry. And they will send one another gifts, because these two prophets tormented those living on the earth.
              Rev 11:11 And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on the ones beholding them.
              Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice out of Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up into the heaven in the cloud. And their enemies saw them.

              2Th 1:4 so as for us to boast ourselves in you in the assemblies of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions, and the afflictions which you endure,
              2Th 1:5 a clear token of the just judgment of God, for you to be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed suffer;
              2Th 1:6 since it is a just thing with God to pay back tribulation to the ones troubling you,
              2Th 1:7 and to give you, those being afflicted, relief with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with angels of His power,


              When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.
              The seals reveal the scroll of the entire story from mans attempt to conquor the earth to Christs establishment of His Kingdom over it.

              The trumpets precede the day of the Lord which begins at the 6th seal but the vials of wrath begin in the 7th seal and end at Armageddon.

              The view that the seals are an overview of the 70th week and that the trumpets and bowls run concurrently with them creates several big problems.

              1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???
              Well the post trib view giving any vials before the day of the Lord beginning at the 6th seal is incorrect. The 70 weeks must end at the resurrection at the end of the 3.5 years of Revelation which is in the 6th seal at the 7th trumpet. The Holy people who are anointed (Dan.9) are the resurrected saints, and both She and Her children are shown in Rev.ch 7.



              Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
              Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL!
              Only the 7th seal is of the day of the Lord as in the vials of it, but the day of the Lord goes on. The Beasts exaltation finishes in the 6th seal at the appearing of Christ to resurrect the saints, and the wrath of the vials is then begun pouring on him. Rev.16.

              After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??
              The trumpets do not describe the destroying of the earth, sea, and trees, but of the things typed by those descriptions. Rev.12 Joel ch's 1-2. and these trumpets occur during the 6 seals ending in the 6th seal.



              These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.

              The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well.

              Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….


              1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54



              Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.

              I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
              The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.
              The Lords day begins with His coming from Heaven to resurrect the saints, and begins His wrath upon the wicked but yes the His day continues until satan is bound and His Spirit takes over, with the gospel continuing until the end of the age.

              2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet.
              1 Cor. 15:52


              Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

              I do not agree. 1st Cor. was written approx. 40 years before Revelation. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
              More likely, is that he was using an analogy that his readers would understand. N.T. authors often used cultural analogies to make their points clear.
              The analogy would be that the last trumpet when we are raptured would be like the call to assembly which was used in Roman games or in a military context. There was usually a preliminary trumpet or two blown and the last one would be the call to assembly. This would definitely make sense in reference to the rapture in which all believers will be called and gathered together (assembled) with the trumpet of God!
              Also, the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 is called the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and it is Christ himself who blows the trumpet at the rapture in 1 Thess. as well as in Matt. 24:32. This is not the same as the 7th trumpet because angels blow the trumpets in Rev., not Christ.
              Well, all of the trumpets are the Lords voice, the first 6 through His sealed Bride and the seventh being His own person direct. The words of Paul were all inspired by God so the non-reading of other writings or the culture of the times has nothing to do with anything.

              3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump.
              Rev. 10:7
              Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished.


              The church was a mystery, but Paul makes it clear that once the church was formed, the mystery was revealed. Ephesians 3:5-6
              The mystery of God to be finished at the 7th trumpet can’t be the church.

              There are 7 mysteries of God.

              The mystery of God finishes at the 7th trumpet resurrection at the appearing of Christ bodily from Heaven and is how God is and has been in His people.

              This mystery is denied by certain religions like that of Jehovah witnesses and the RCC who hide the opportunity of becoming a Temple of God and part of One, from the eyes of man through their religions designed to satisfy something of mans desire for Godliness or to be accepted by God but who will not leave their love of this present world entirely in order to be made like Him and suffer the loss of reputation, wealth, friends and relatives, yet become the receiver of much more in the end and the quality friendship of the few who are the same as themselves now.


              Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
              Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
              Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
              Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
              Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
              Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
              Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing Ido, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
              Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


              Yes there is a lesser calling--Mat.25 sheep.

              Merton.
              One can know a lot about the Bible and still not live righteously. Mat ch 23.

              A little knowledge lived rightly is better that much knowledge lived wrongly.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Merton View Post
                Scripture gives it that the gathering of the saints in the resurrection is after the tribulation even if not exactly immediately.--

                Mat 24:29 And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
                Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.


                Yes, but herein lies the problem....equating "tribulation" as the entire 70th week. It does not say "after the 70th week". Tribulation is thlipsis in the Greek meaning, trouble, oppression, affliction or persecution. Tribulation is not synonymous with the 70th week, it is a part of it, but that is all. Unfortunately the term has become synonymous with the 7 year period, but the Bible never calls the entire 7 years "the tribulation".

                More importantly, the great tribulation will be cut short for the sake of the elect. Matt. 24:21-22 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. The persecution of the saints by antichrist will be cut short by the cosmic signs, the Coming of the Lord and the rapture at the 6th seal, sometime during the 2nd half of the week.


                The trumpets precede the day of the Lord which begins at the 6th seal but the vials of wrath begin in the 7th seal and end at Armageddon.
                Why do you not believe the trumpets are part of the DOTL?

                The 70 weeks must end at the resurrection at the end of the 3.5 years of Revelation which is in the 6th seal at the 7th trumpet.
                I agree the 70th week ends at the 7th trumpet. However, the 6th seal (which is where the resurrection/rapture happens) is earlier, during the 2nd half of the 70th week. I don't see how the overlap theory works, I can't get that from the normal reading of the text and I see too many problems with it.

                Only the 7th seal is of the day of the Lord as in the vials of it, but the day of the Lord goes on.
                I agree the DOTL begins with the 7th seal. But, how do you have only the bowls after it and not the trumpets? The 7 trumpets are what is unleashed after the 7th seal is opened, not the bowls. The bowls come after the 7th trumpet.

                The Beasts exaltation finishes in the 6th seal at the appearing of Christ to resurrect the saints, and the wrath of the vials is then begun pouring on him. Rev.16.
                Again I agree with you about the AC exaltation becoming null at the rapture at the 6th seal, but what I am trying to understand is why you take the trumpets out of the chronological order?

                The trumpets do not describe the destroying of the earth, sea, and trees, but of the things typed by those descriptions. Rev.12 Joel ch's 1-2. and these trumpets occur during the 6 seals ending in the 6th seal.
                Yes, the trumpets DO decribe the destroying of the earth, sea and trees.
                1st trumpet - hail and fire thrown to the earth and 1/3 of earth set on fire. 1/3 of grass and trees burned.
                2nd trumpet - mountain of fire thrown into the sea, 1/3 of the sea became blood, 1/3 of the life in the sea died, 1/3 of all ships on the sea destroyed.


                Ok, and you say that
                these trumpets occur during the 6 seals ending in the 6th seal.
                which is precisely my point. The 1st and 2nd trumpet can NOT occur before the 6th seal because after the 6th seal is opened the angel commands that the earth, sea and trees are not harmed yet! How can that be if you have the trumpets beginning at the 1st seal and finishing at the 6th seal??

                Well, all of the trumpets are the Lords voice, the first 6 through His sealed Bride and the seventh being His own person direct.
                ???
                The 1st ANGEL blew his trumpet, the 2nd ANGEL blew his trumpet and so on with all 7 trumpets.

                "The Lord Himself will descend from heaven....with the trumpet OF GOD" 1st Thess. 4:16

                "...the Son of Man coming on the clouds of they sky...and He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call..." Matt. 24:30-31

                It is a stretch to say that the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture. There isn't any other Biblical support other than it is the last of the 7 trumpets blown.
                The words of Paul were all inspired by God
                Agreed!

                the culture of the times has nothing to do with anything.
                This is simply not true... The Jewish culture and the culture at the time has a LOT to do with understanding Scripture more clearly!!
                It makes more sense that he was using an analogy that they would understand.
                sigpic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                  I see several things that cause problems with a post-trib rapture and have not had them cleared up for me.


                  When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.

                  The view that the seals are an overview of the 70th week and that the trumpets and bowls run concurrently with them creates several big problems.

                  1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???

                  Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
                  Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL!

                  After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??

                  These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.

                  The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well.

                  Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….


                  1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54



                  Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.

                  I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
                  The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.

                  2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:52


                  Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

                  I do not agree. 1st Cor. was written approx. 40 years before Revelation. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
                  More likely, is that he was using an analogy that his readers would understand. N.T. authors often used cultural analogies to make their points clear.
                  The analogy would be that the last trumpet when we are raptured would be like the call to assembly which was used in Roman games or in a military context. There was usually a preliminary trumpet or two blown and the last one would be the call to assembly. This would definitely make sense in reference to the rapture in which all believers will be called and gathered together (assembled) with the trumpet of God!
                  Also, the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 is called the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and it is Christ himself who blows the trumpet at the rapture in 1 Thess. as well as in Matt. 24:32. This is not the same as the 7th trumpet because angels blow the trumpets in Rev., not Christ.

                  3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. Rev. 10:7
                  Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished.


                  The church was a mystery, but Paul makes it clear that once the church was formed, the mystery was revealed. Ephesians 3:5-6
                  The mystery of God to be finished at the 7th trumpet can’t be the church.





                  According to Jesus those that believe in him and those that do not believe in him will be raised and judged at the last day;

                  Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

                  Jn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

                  Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

                  What events happen after judgment?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ok, I have had very little sleep, and the only reason why I am responding right now is because I feel that this has to be stated.

                    Not all who prescribe themsleves as post-trib believe in the rapture. The rapture, as stated by those who use the word, the pre-tribbers, is a period when Jesus comes and takes his people out of the world. This event happens before the Great Tribulation.

                    The post-trib view thaty I hold to actually dismisses the whole idea of the Lord coming to get us before the end of the Great Tribulation. The Gathering, or the Meeting in the Air happens at the time of the Lord's coming, and it is not differenciated. The Lord comes, gathers his people, and then destroys the wicked. There is no gap of 3.5 or 7 years, accoridng to the POV that I hold to.


                    So, it is preferrable that when the OP says that there is some problems with the "post-trib" POV, please recognize that not all who proclaims themselves as post-trib are pre-wrath. There are some who have a view of post-trib that has nothing to do with the pre-trib model of end times events.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                      I see several things that cause problems with a post-trib rapture and have not had them cleared up for me.

                      When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.

                      The view that the seals are an overview of the 70th week and that the trumpets and bowls run concurrently with them creates several big problems.

                      1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???

                      Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
                      Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL!

                      After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??

                      These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.

                      The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well.
                      I am post-trib, but completely disagree that the rapture / resurrection / Lord's return occurs at the sixth seal. I agree that there are seven seals, then seven trumpets, then the rapture / resurrection / Lord's return, then seven bowls. What you are pointing out as "fatal flaws" aren't to the post-trib view, but to the post-tribbers who believe in a sixth seal resurrection.

                      Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                      Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….

                      1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54

                      Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.

                      I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
                      The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.
                      Why the cosmic signs of the sixth seal? Why not any of the other cosmic signs found in later judgments?

                      Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                      2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:52

                      Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

                      I do not agree. 1st Cor. was written approx. 40 years before Revelation. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
                      More likely, is that he was using an analogy that his readers would understand. N.T. authors often used cultural analogies to make their points clear.
                      The analogy would be that the last trumpet when we are raptured would be like the call to assembly which was used in Roman games or in a military context. There was usually a preliminary trumpet or two blown and the last one would be the call to assembly. This would definitely make sense in reference to the rapture in which all believers will be called and gathered together (assembled) with the trumpet of God!
                      Also, the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 is called the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and it is Christ himself who blows the trumpet at the rapture in 1 Thess. as well as in Matt. 24:32. This is not the same as the 7th trumpet because angels blow the trumpets in Rev., not Christ.
                      The trumpet mentioned in 1 Thess. 4 is the same as John's seventh trumpet. However, in 1 Cor. 15 the trumpet Paul speaks of is referring to the Feast of Trumpets that Jesus will fulfill, just as He is our Passover (5:7; 15:3) and the Firstfruits (15:4, 20, 23). And Matt. 24's trumpet is actually *not* about the rapture, but is a reference to Isa. 27:12-13, and the regathering of the Israelites.

                      Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                      3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. Rev. 10:7
                      Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished.

                      The church was a mystery, but Paul makes it clear that once the church was formed, the mystery was revealed. Ephesians 3:5-6
                      The mystery of God to be finished at the 7th trumpet can’t be the church.
                      I think that you need to rethink this point... every time the word "mystery" is used it means "two becoming one", and will forever remain a mystery. If you think that we'll ever in eternity finally understand 1 Tim. 3:16, then I wholeheartedly disagree. I think we all need to spend a lot more time in Rev. 10:7 and it's context...

                      Lk.11
                      analyze. synthesize. repeat.

                      *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

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                      • #12
                        Yea, we do need to show caution here and not lump "post tribbers" in a pile, nobody likes to be globbed in a pileup. When we do that we end up making assumptions that are many times incorrect and based on our preconceived understandings of a view we do not hold and we end up putting words in someone else's mouth and slapping a label on them, and that tends to not go well.

                        We all need to ask someone what the believe, not tell them what they believe.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
                          Yea, we do need to show caution here and not lump "post tribbers" in a pile, nobody likes to be globbed in a pileup. When we do that we end up making assumptions that are many times incorrect and based on our preconceived understandings of a view we do not hold and we end up putting words in someone else's mouth and slapping a label on them, and that tends to not go well.

                          We all need to ask someone what the believe, not tell them what they believe.
                          I think TruthInLove is responding to what Literalist-Luke & I believe. We are all friends & she is showing us (in love) why she doesn't understand our position. I promise you all that she isn't trying to lump all posties in the same category. She knows that there are different views that posties hold.

                          Hope that helps.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                            I see several things that cause problems with a post-trib rapture and have not had them cleared up for me.
                            Well, I seriously doubt I will be able to clear anything up for you b/c I'm not the best debater as you've probably seen in the past. I'll let Luke work his debating magic instead....

                            Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post

                            When a Pre-wrather shows evidence of a 6th seal rapture, most Post-tribbers agree. They usually believe in a 6th seal rapture as well as a 7th trumpet rapture. But, in order to do this, they must take the chronology of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and overlap or telescope them so that the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet occur at the same time. This overlapping of judgments can’t be understood from a normal reading of the text. It must be constructed that way to support the desired outcome.
                            Revelations is not written in very sequentialy anyways. It jumps around a little & recaps in places. But more than that I cannot see how the seals could NOT be covering the entire trib. It appears to me that the begining of the seals are depicting the onset of the 70th week & ends w/ the coming of the Lord & the start of the DOTL. I can appreciate your view that this doesn't make sense, but it doesn't pose a problem for me when I see how things fit together when viewed this way.

                            Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                            1) This overlapping would cause the seals to be a part of the DOTL (God’s wrath). Yet the DOTL begins AFTER the 6th seal (see Joel 2:31). How can Joel 2:31 be true according to the post-trib view? How can they have the DOTL (trumpets and bowls) occurring simultaneously with the seals if the 6th seal precedes the DOTL???
                            without looking back at each trumpet, the short answer is:
                            b/c none of the trumpets are the DOTL...I don't believe they are describing the DOTL. Within the trumpet events the DOTL wouldn't happen until after the 7th trumpet....the DOTL wouldn't happen until Christ returns which IMO is described @ the 6th seal & the 7th trumpet. Those both describe the return of Christ Jesus which happens prior to the DOTL.
                            Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                            Another problem in making the seals the DOTL is that during the DOTL the LORD ALONE WILL BE EXALTED. Isaiah 2:11
                            Yet, we know that at the midpoint of the 70th week, during the seals, the antichrist will EXALT himself in the temple and claim to be God. Therefore the seals can’t be part of the DOTL!
                            Firstly, I'm not making the seals the DOTL...the DOTL IMO would begin AFTERwards. So that particular argument isn't applicable in my view. The Lord will be the only one exalted during the DOTL. My view doesn't conflict with that.
                            Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                            After the 6th seal is opened, Rev. 7:3 states NO harm to the earth, sea or trees may be done until the sealing of the 144,000. How can the trumpet judgments, which clearly destroy the earth, sea, and trees, have already been occurring, according to the overlap view if the 6th seal MUST PRECEDE the harming of the earth, sea and trees??
                            Right, no harm will befall the 144k until they are sealed which I believe will happen when they (the 144k = remnant) see Christ at His coming in the 6th Seal & they believe thus receive the holy spirit (sealing). The trumpet judgments do not destroy the earth everywhere...only portions. Conversly the DOTL will be a different story. If the trumpet judgments are within the scope from seal #1 - seal # 6 then there isn't an issue.
                            Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                            These are fatal flaws to the post-trib position.
                            That's fine...I'm not out to change your position. I just wanted to you to see what I believed so you would know as a friend, what your friend believed. Does that makes sense? I understand your postion enough to know where you are coming from & I see why you believe what you do. I really do. The Prewrath camp just left too many holes IMO.
                            Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                            The text indicates consecutive order of judgments with the language used….then, until and after. The fact that the judgments are numbered 1-7 supports consecutive order as well.
                            I don't know. I could just as easily argue that if they were supposed to be in consecutive order...why 3 sets of 7 instead of one set of 21?
                            Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                            Here are a few more arguments used to support the post-trib view….
                            1) Christ will raise up those who believe in Him on the last day. John 6:39, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:54
                            Post-tribbers infer that this “last day” must be the last day of the 70th week.
                            I disagree. I believe the “last day” is the last day of the end of the age. The Great Commission of making disciples and teaching all that Jesus commanded is until the end of the age. Matt. 28:18-20
                            The question the disciples asked Jesus during the Olivet Discourse was “tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age.” Matt. 24:3b The end of the age (last day) will be after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal, when the Lord returns and raptures the believers.
                            I believe the same as the statement I bolded ~ only our timing of the 6th seal in the scope of things is where we differ.
                            Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                            2) The resurrection/rapture occurs at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:52
                            Post-tribbers infer that the “last trumpet” spoken of here must be the 7th trumpet of Revelation.
                            I do not agree. 1st Cor. was written approx. 40 years before Revelation. Paul had no knowledge of the trumpet judgments of Revelation.
                            More likely, is that he was using an analogy that his readers would understand. N.T. authors often used cultural analogies to make their points clear.
                            The analogy would be that the last trumpet when we are raptured would be like the call to assembly which was used in Roman games or in a military context. There was usually a preliminary trumpet or two blown and the last one would be the call to assembly. This would definitely make sense in reference to the rapture in which all believers will be called and gathered together (assembled) with the trumpet of God!
                            Also, the last trumpet spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:52 is called the trumpet of God in 1 Thess. 4:16 and it is Christ himself who blows the trumpet at the rapture in 1 Thess. as well as in Matt. 24:32. This is not the same as the 7th trumpet because angels blow the trumpets in Rev., not Christ.
                            I've heard the argument before that Paul wouldn't have know what that there would be 7 trumpets, but that is a very bad argument IMO. How did anyone know any of the holy scriptures they wrote?...why the Holy Spirit of course. Paul wouldn't have had to have known exactly what his words indicated to be inspired to say them/write them.
                            Originally posted by Truthinlove View Post
                            3) The mystery of God is finished at the seventh trump. Rev. 10:7
                            Post-tribbers believe that the mystery of God is the church. Since they believe the 7th trumpet of Rev. is the last trumpet of the rapture, they believe this is when the rapture will happen and the mystery of the church will be finished.
                            The church was a mystery, but Paul makes it clear that once the church was formed, the mystery was revealed. Ephesians 3:5-6
                            The mystery of God to be finished at the 7th trumpet can’t be the church.
                            I've never heard that the church is the mystery revealed @ the 7th trump.
                            ???
                            That mystery that was spoken of by the prophets is probably the revelation of Christ to the world, but I certainly don't think it's the church.
                            What do you think the mystery is?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Merton View Post
                              ............

                              The seals reveal the scroll of the entire story from mans attempt to conquor the earth to Christs establishment of His Kingdom over it.

                              Well the post trib view giving any vials before the day of the Lord beginning at the 6th seal is incorrect. The 70 weeks must end at the resurrection at the end of the 3.5 years of Revelation which is in the 6th seal at the 7th trumpet. The Holy people who are anointed (Dan.9) are the resurrected saints, and both She and Her children are shown in Rev.ch 7.

                              Merton.
                              Merton,
                              I had questions about these two things you talked about. First, can you expound on the view that the seals reveal the scroll of the entire story from mans attempt.... to Christ's kingdom? That is a very interesting perspective that I have not heard before. I actually could see how one could view it this way, but I'd have to know more about the idea.

                              Secondly, I looked up Dan 9 & saw no refference to a Holy people who were anointed. I saw "holy city & holy place" & "Anointed One", but nothing that matched your description. Could you have been in the wrong chapter there?
                              And I saw no refrence to She & Her children anywhere in Rev 7....are you talking about the "Woman" in another chapter in Rev?

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