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  • Hi. I Have A Bible-Based Question I am struggling with! Help Is Needed!

    Hello!
    I am new to these boards but a lot of people here seemed very Bible-based and Bible smart so I thought I might be able to get some help here from some people. I consider this a tough question to my faith, which it is tearing my husband and me apart. My husband came across some guys a few months ago(in a seemingly miraculous way), they are from the International Church Of Christ. They started doing Bible studies with him and shared there theology w/ him. My husband continued to go to their bible studies, bible meetings and church services until he is a member now. He got baptized by them a little while ago. Now if nobody knows who the ICOC are they believe they believe they let the Bible speak for itself, which the big main thing they believe is that the point of salvation for a believer is baptism. They say Jesus can't offer you forgiveness until your baptized and that when you are baptized that is when you enter into Gods Kingdom. Now I totally believe in baptism but for some reason i don't want to believe Jesus cant forgive me of my sins until the point i come up out of water.
    What this church believes wouldnt bother me if they did not have tons of scripture to back it up! They bring up Romans 6, Pauls conversion in Acts where it states "get up be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name"( they claim that proves when your baptized is when you sins are washed away), they also bring up the great Commission where Jesus says "anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but anyone that does not believe will be condemned", another big verse these people say prove there theology is Acts 2:38 when Peter says "Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the holy spirit. 39 "this is a promise to you ...all all far off whom the Lord God will call". So they say if after baptism is when you receive the Holy spirit how can you be saved before baptism. Now why this is so important for me to figure out is because I am raising a five month old boy, my husband goes to this church..feels like this it the church that is one of the only Christian churches out there because there so Bible based (which i agree a lot of people and churces out there bring there on ideas into teaching when it should be soley the Word Of GOd) these ICOC members even helped my husband on a number of points where he was living sinfully! So that seems like a true Christian friend that they were the only ones to help him overcome some stuff. Anyway I have not been baptize yet i want to find a bible based Christian church to be baptized at because if i am baptzied by the ICOC then i have to believe that is the point when God is forgiving me. If it's true, then I have to believe it. There are many verses and I need help with. If anyone has any explanations or insight to these verses i provided or any knowledge you might have biblically about this church, then I would most appreciate your help! Please this one belief is tearing apart my husband and me and I want to bring my baby up in the truth of scriptures, i dont want him to be confused at all! So i better figure out the truth! I have asked many others and no one can explain away these verses. Some tell me not to even be so uptight about what the scriptures say, because i should already know Gods character. Well I know Gods character by the scriptures and what they truly say. If anyone could also provide some knowledge on a church denomonation that is very bible based where I might be able to go to them myself and ask some questions. I am desperate to find truth on what the scriptures say about this!

    Thanks for any help you are able to give!
    God BLess

  • #2
    Originally posted by loveroftruth View Post
    Hello!
    I am new to these boards but a lot of people here seemed very Bible-based and Bible smart so I thought I might be able to get some help here from some people. I consider this a tough question to my faith, which it is tearing my husband and me apart. My husband came across some guys a few months ago(in a seemingly miraculous way), they are from the International Church Of Christ. They started doing Bible studies with him and shared there theology w/ him. My husband continued to go to their bible studies, bible meetings and church services until he is a member now. He got baptized by them a little while ago. Now if nobody knows who the ICOC are they believe they believe they let the Bible speak for itself, which the big main thing they believe is that the point of salvation for a believer is baptism. They say Jesus can't offer you forgiveness until your baptized and that when you are baptized that is when you enter into Gods Kingdom. Now I totally believe in baptism but for some reason i don't want to believe Jesus cant forgive me of my sins until the point i come up out of water. What this church believes wouldnt bother me if they did not have tons of scripture to back it up! They bring up Romans 6, Pauls conversion in Acts where it states "get up be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name"( they claim that proves when your baptized is when you sins are washed away), they also bring up the great Commission where Jesus says "anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but anyone that does not believe will be condemned", another big verse these people say prove there theology is Acts 2:38 when Peter says "Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the holy spirit. 39 "this is a promise to you ...all all far off whom the Lord God will call". So they say if after baptism is when you receive the Holy spirit how can you be saved before baptism. Now why this is so important for me to figure out is because I am raising a five month old boy, my husband goes to this church..feels like this it the church that is one of the only Christian churches out there because there so Bible based (which i agree a lot of people and churces out there bring there on ideas into teaching when it should be soley the Word Of GOd) these ICOC members even helped my husband on a number of points where he was living sinfully! So that seems like a true Christian friend that they were the only ones to help him overcome some stuff. Anyway I have not been baptize yet i want to find a bible based Christian church to be baptized at because if i am baptzied by the ICOC then i have to believe that is the point when God is forgiving me. If it's true, then I have to believe it. There are many verses and I need help with. If anyone has any explanations or insight to these verses i provided or any knowledge you might have biblically about this church, then I would most appreciate your help! Please this one belief is tearing apart my husband and me and I want to bring my baby up in the truth of scriptures, i dont want him to be confused at all! So i better figure out the truth! I have asked many others and no one can explain away these verses. Some tell me not to even be so uptight about what the scriptures say, because i should already know Gods character. Well I know Gods character by the scriptures and what they truly say. If anyone could also provide some knowledge on a church denomonation that is very bible based where I might be able to go to them myself and ask some questions. I am desperate to find truth on what the scriptures say about this!

    Thanks for any help you are able to give!
    God BLess
    Let's keep it simple...

    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9)


    Water baptism is a work of man. Although it's important to be obedient to the Lord, only by his grace - which allows us to be baptized in the blood and the spirit of the Christ will get us into Heaven.

    Here's a site that has a lot of verses in it too, and summarizes some of what you're going through pretty well.

    http://www.loriswebs.com/lorispoetry/grace.html

    Hope this helps.

    In Christian Love,

    Stephen

    Comment


    • #3
      In regards to Romans 6 and baptism, you may want to try the CARM website, which I'll link to you here: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Rom_6_3-5.htm

      The link answers well the claim that one must be baptized to be forgiven, all based on Romans 6.

      Friend of I AM had it right on as well !

      Comment


      • #4
        Baptism was indeed required for salvation during the intertestamental period. This period of time had to do with the passing away of the old covenant to the full arrival of the new covenant. So baptism was required for ONLY for the generation that lived in this period.

        According to Hebrews 9 baptisms and all other external ordinances ceased when the new covenant fully arrived. Now that the new covenant age has fully arrived it is by FAITH ALONE that we are saved. Baptism was a temporary ordinance just as all the other external ordinances.

        I am glad you came to this board with your question because there are others on this board who are like minded as your husband. They need to see how they burden the people of God today. Jesus said, "Come unto me all you that labor and are heavily burdened and I will give you rest".

        Contradicting Christ they say "do this and that" or "be baptized by immersion" and maintain your salvation by "your works". They put burdens on people contrary to Christ's simple invitation. But the truth is that we live in the FAITH ALONE age now.

        Comment


        • #5
          I do not see Hebrews 9 mention anything about baptism. Did not Jesus instruct us to baptize people of all nations in Matthew 28?

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi loveroftruth,

            First of all, I pray that the Lord will bring His peace to your household, and that He will lead both you and your husband in the truth. Pray for your husband, and for your marriage.

            Regarding baptism, here's the problem. Jesus did command His disciples to baptize people as part of the salvation process, the apostles faithfully followed His directions, and there isn't any Biblical reason for ministers today to not follow the same Great Commission. Baptism was the way people received Christ. Today, that has been replaced with the sinner's prayer, but in truth, baptism IS the Biblical way to receive Christ for a number of excellent and Biblical reasons. Please don't let baptism be a problem because baptism as part of conversion is Biblical.

            With that said, it is disturbing when a church or group keeps on harping on one thing like that. It is out of balance and gets old pretty quickly, like a one-note song. There is one branch of the ICC that is questionable, the Boston movement. They have some disturbing teachings and practices. Did they make your husband write out a list of his sins for them? I would encourage you to WITH YOUR HUSBAND, not without, do some research about what he is getting into. Don't argue with Him about baptism (or anything else), but find out what you can together about the church organization itself.
            Love In Christ,
            Tanya






            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by loveroftruth View Post
              Hello!
              I am new to these boards but a lot of people here seemed very Bible-based and Bible smart so I thought I might be able to get some help here from some people. I consider this a tough question to my faith, which it is tearing my husband and me apart. My husband came across some guys a few months ago(in a seemingly miraculous way), they are from the International Church Of Christ. They started doing Bible studies with him and shared there theology w/ him. My husband continued to go to their bible studies, bible meetings and church services until he is a member now. He got baptized by them a little while ago. Now if nobody knows who the ICOC are they believe they believe they let the Bible speak for itself, which the big main thing they believe is that the point of salvation for a believer is baptism. They say Jesus can't offer you forgiveness until your baptized and that when you are baptized that is when you enter into Gods Kingdom. Now I totally believe in baptism but for some reason i don't want to believe Jesus cant forgive me of my sins until the point i come up out of water......
              loveroftruth, I believe the scriptures do indeed teach that baptism is necessary for salvation. They are teaching correctly on this point.

              However, there are other problems with the ICOC that make it dangerous. They are an offshoot from the real church of Christ, and they have gone astray in their "discipling techniques."

              Please see this article for more about the ICOC:

              http://www.carm.org/icc/icc_what_is.htm

              If you would like to know more about what the actual church of Christ teaches, go here:

              http://the7ones.com/what-is-the-church-of-christ/

              If you would like to know what the bible really teaches on salvation, go here:

              http://the7ones.com/who-will-go-to-heaven/

              Please do not confuse the straying ICOC with the church of Christ. If you need any questions answered, please feel free to PM me.

              God bless you.


              [CENTER][SIZE=2]A FEW MINUTES WITH SOMEONE WHO LOVES YOU

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by thethinker View Post
                Baptism was indeed required for salvation during the intertestamental period. This period of time had to do with the passing away of the old covenant to the full arrival of the new covenant. So baptism was required for ONLY for the generation that lived in this period.

                According to Hebrews 9 baptisms and all other external ordinances ceased when the new covenant fully arrived. Now that the new covenant age has fully arrived it is by FAITH ALONE that we are saved. Baptism was a temporary ordinance just as all the other external ordinances.

                I am glad you came to this board with your question because there are others on this board who are like minded as your husband. They need to see how they burden the people of God today. Jesus said, "Come unto me all you that labor and are heavily burdened and I will give you rest".

                Contradicting Christ they say "do this and that" or "be baptized by immersion" and maintain your salvation by "your works". They put burdens on people contrary to Christ's simple invitation. But the truth is that we live in the FAITH ALONE age now.
                About "faith alone," God says:

                Jas 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

                Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

                Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

                Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


                [CENTER][SIZE=2]A FEW MINUTES WITH SOMEONE WHO LOVES YOU

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JoeChristian View Post
                  I do not see Hebrews 9 mention anything about baptism. Did not Jesus instruct us to baptize people of all nations in Matthew 28?
                  Joe, thethinker has some peculiar views of scripture known as "full preterism" that cause him to view scriptures a little different than most. For a good thread on the necessity of baptism, along with a representation of his views, go here:

                  http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=118128

                  God bless!


                  [CENTER][SIZE=2]A FEW MINUTES WITH SOMEONE WHO LOVES YOU

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think the thief on the cross also shows that water baptism is not a requirement of Salvation, that it is a public confession through obedience
                    When a person is born again they receive the holy spirit and are baptised by the holy spirit

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
                      In regards to Romans 6 and baptism, you may want to try the CARM website, which I'll link to you here: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Rom_6_3-5.htm
                      Thanks for the link, I just read it. However, he left a few things out about Romans 6:3-8.

                      Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

                      Believers who have been baptized share in Christ's death.

                      Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

                      Those who have been baptized into Christ have been raised with Him, and can now walk in newness of life.

                      Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

                      If we've been baptized into Christ, we will surely be in the likeness of His resurrection!

                      Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
                      Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.


                      If we have been baptized into His death, we have died to sin, and are freed from it.

                      Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
                      Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


                      If we are baptized into Christ, on Christ's behalf we will not be subject to spiritual death.

                      Seeing this passage shows us that those who are baptized:

                      1. Share in Christ's death
                      2. Have been raised with Him
                      3. Can now walk in newness of life (they are reborn!)
                      4. Will be in His likeness in resurrection
                      5. Have died to sin

                      If one is not baptized into Christ, then one has not shared in His death, has not been raised with Him, cannot walk in newness of life because they have not been reborn, will not be in His likeness in resurrection, and have not died to sin.

                      Paul further says:

                      Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
                      Rom 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.


                      Baptism was part of the "form of teaching" that Paul delivered to them, and if they obeyed, they were freed from sin.

                      Can one be saved who has not been raised, reborn, and freed? No, of course not.

                      Therefore, the CARM exegesis of this passage is faulty.


                      [CENTER][SIZE=2]A FEW MINUTES WITH SOMEONE WHO LOVES YOU

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by boangry View Post
                        I think the thief on the cross also shows that water baptism is not a requirement of Salvation, that it is a public confession through obedience
                        That is a common view. However, the book of Hebrews says:

                        Heb 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
                        Heb 9:16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
                        Heb 9:17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.


                        You see, Hebrews says the New Covenant was not in effect until Christ's death. Since Christ had power to forgive sins in any way He chose while walking the earth, the thief was not bound by the New Covenant. But after Christ's death, the covenant was in full force.

                        What does the New Covenant demand in regards to salvation? It's here, on the first gospel sermon preached following the resurrection:

                        Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

                        This confirmed the Lord's New Covenant teaching, which He commanded the apostles to teach:

                        Mar 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

                        Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
                        Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."


                        God bless!


                        [CENTER][SIZE=2]A FEW MINUTES WITH SOMEONE WHO LOVES YOU

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Matt14 View Post
                          About "faith alone," God says:

                          Jas 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

                          Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

                          Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

                          Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
                          How then do you explain the thief who was crucified with Jesus and Jesus' statement that the repentant thief would be with Him in paradise? The thief was never baptized.
                          ----------------------------------------------
                          When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
                            How then do you explain the thief who was crucified with Jesus and Jesus' statement that the repentant thief would be with Him in paradise? The thief was never baptized.
                            See the post directly above yours.


                            [CENTER][SIZE=2]A FEW MINUTES WITH SOMEONE WHO LOVES YOU

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Everybody and Thank you so much!
                              I should be spending time on my college work right now, but this topic is so very important to me. Hi Tanya! Thanks for the reply. My husband is involved with the Portland International church of Christ. They did say my husband should write out a sin list, which he did, but they did not want him to read it off to them nor did they want to keep it or have him keep it as some stories on the web say. My husband has looked into this church months before he started attending and before he got baptized. My husband and I both have been to tons of diff sites. Me and my husband both are big believers in wanting to interpret scripture in the true and right way. I have to admit I prob haven't been acting very Christian to him about the whole baptism thing because I have gotten heated up and shouted at him wanting to prove him wrong with scriptures or something. I totally agree with you that Jesus COMMANDED us to be baptized into his name, but i guess the thing with me is that I just didn't or don't want to believe he cannot forgive me until i am baptized. although i think baptisms should happen right after a conversion. but there is lots of evidences in the Bible that point towards baptism being the seal for forgiveness and the holy spirits dwelling. I would appreciate your prayers for me to be a calm and loving wife to my husband though, because I get stirred about the forgiveness coming at baptism thing, probably because i was taught so differently growing up. I disagree with a lot my parents brought me up in though. my mom teaches all you have to do to be saved is believe in Jesus but you can continue to live in sinfulness to certain behaviors. My family is wealthy and they are raising my little sis to be a materialistic, self loving, sin loving "Christian". Its very sad.
                              Thank you Matt for your response too! Are you a church of christ member? I would really like to PM you and ask you some questions on the ICOC. I know there is a church of christ next to where I live, and maybe i should just be open to going there. I already know they believe baptism being the point of salvation. But i guess it seems the Bible might really be pointing toward that. Now concerning the ICOC, maybe it is the rebelliousness in me about the baptism or something else, but i still get angry when I think of becoming a member of their church I have already been to a few of their "bible talks" and I have already given my phone numbers to a few ladies. See I was really open to their doctrine for a while, but then i went the whole other way and prove them wrong with the Bible because of what they teach. I think it is because they are like there on "little family" and exclude from fellowshipping with other churches. Do they believe they are the one and only church that is teaching the truth? and what is the diff between them and the coc? Is there a problem between them? I really want to know the truth on where our family should be attending church. I'd like to know what the ICOC teaches that is dangerous. I have looked up so much stuff about them, but all the sites i looked into, i have not been able to match that up with the guys my husband hangs out with. So would you be able to tell me how I may PM on here???
                              Seriously thank you for caring to respond and talk to me. I am spiritual needy right now and i want to get on the right track. So i am open to doing whatever Christ says must be done. I welcome all the help and insight you guys have on this issue and on the icoc.

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