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  • Distinction between Jews and the church

    When Christ died on the cross at Calvary He died for all. In 1 Corinthians it tells us there is no distinction between the Jews, Greeks slave or free man.

    1 Corinthians 12:13
    For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

    When we look at the end times in Revelation God has chosen 144,000 Jews and marked them with His mark, they are His chosen people. Not only that you have a remnant of Jews that God is caring for Himself in the wlderness. Why does God do this if we are all meant to be the same in the Lord?
    Why are these people so special to God that He would personally take care of them in the wilderness?
    What about the church none of them are being cared for by God?
    Why is there a differnece in the way God treats these two groups when we are all meant to be the same in Christ?
    John 8:31-32



    31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


    Dizzy

  • #2
    Originally posted by DIZZY View Post
    When Christ died on the cross at Calvary He died for all. In 1 Corinthians it tells us there is no distinction between the Jews, Greeks slave or free man.

    1 Corinthians 12:13
    For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

    When we look at the end times in Revelation God has chosen 144,000 Jews and marked them with His mark, they are His chosen people. Not only that you have a remnant of Jews that God is caring for Himself in the wlderness. Why does God do this if we are all meant to be the same in the Lord?
    Why are these people so special to God that He would personally take care of them in the wilderness?
    What about the church none of them are being cared for by God?
    Why is there a differnece in the way God treats these two groups when we are all meant to be the same in Christ?
    The 144K Jews are a historical pictured the Jews who came to faith first, before the Gentiles began to be included in the great NT harvest.

    Rev 7 & 14 show a panoramic history of Salvation of all men, the Jew first, then the Gentile.

    Remember, Rev 14 shows the 144K in heaven, redeemed from the earth, and they are the "firstfruits" of God, not "the lastfruits", as many modern-day teachers attempt to place them.

    Seeing the 144k in their proper setting, removes the conflicted result your question generates, when the 144K are misplaced at the end of time.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by DIZZY View Post
      When Christ died on the cross at Calvary He died for all. In 1 Corinthians it tells us there is no distinction between the Jews, Greeks slave or free man.

      1 Corinthians 12:13
      For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

      When we look at the end times in Revelation God has chosen 144,000 Jews and marked them with His mark, they are His chosen people. Not only that you have a remnant of Jews that God is caring for Himself in the wlderness. Why does God do this if we are all meant to be the same in the Lord?
      Why are these people so special to God that He would personally take care of them in the wilderness?
      What about the church none of them are being cared for by God?
      Why is there a differnece in the way God treats these two groups when we are all meant to be the same in Christ?
      I don't believe that Rev 6 through Rev 19 covers only the last 7 yrs. leading up to the Second Coming, as many teach today.

      If by "end times" you mean the "last days", the last days began with the First Coming of Christ in the 1st century.

      Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

      Jesus told John to write the book of Revelation and send it to the 7 Churches in existance at that time in the 1st century:

      Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

      Nowhere in Rev 7 or Rev 14 where the 144,000 are mentioned does it say that they were sealed after the Rapture of the Church during a seven-yr. GT.

      The word "Jew" appears only 2 times in the entire book of Rev.

      Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

      Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

      There is no mention that "the woman" of Rev. 12 is made up of only Jews.


      "Israel" appears in Revelation 3 times:

      Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

      Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

      Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


      Shirley




      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DIZZY View Post
        When Christ died on the cross at Calvary He died for all. In 1 Corinthians it tells us there is no distinction between the Jews, Greeks slave or free man.

        1 Corinthians 12:13
        For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

        When we look at the end times in Revelation God has chosen 144,000 Jews and marked them with His mark, they are His chosen people. Not only that you have a remnant of Jews that God is caring for Himself in the wlderness. Why does God do this if we are all meant to be the same in the Lord?
        Why are these people so special to God that He would personally take care of them in the wilderness?
        What about the church none of them are being cared for by God?
        Why is there a differnece in the way God treats these two groups when we are all meant to be the same in Christ?
        There's only one reason for this. That he must still have a covenant with the people. That's the only way he would do this. He has a promise that all of Israel will be saved. Romans 11:26-27
        The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace.” Numbers 6:24-26

        Comment


        • #5
          [quote=ShirleyFord;1597892]I don't believe that Rev 6 through Rev 19 covers only the last 7 yrs. leading up to the Second Coming, as many teach today.

          If by "end times" you mean the "last days", the last days began with the First Coming of Christ in the 1st century.[.quote]

          we are in the last of the last days though... and yes I believe that the Great Tribulation will last only 3 1/2 years.. but I'm not that well versed in the end times yet to prove it

          Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds

          Jesus told John to write the book of Revelation and send it to the 7 Churches in existance at that time in the 1st century:

          Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

          Nowhere in Rev 7 or Rev 14 where the 144,000 are mentioned does it say that they were sealed after the Rapture of the Church during a seven-yr. GT.

          The word "Jew" appears only 2 times in the entire book of Rev.

          Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

          Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

          There is no mention that "the woman" of Rev. 12 is made up of only Jews.
          then who else could it be? the woman gave birth to the man child which has to be the Messiah... It can't be the church, because Christ started the church... So the woman in Rev has to the the Jewish people.


          "Israel" appears in Revelation 3 times:

          Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

          Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

          Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


          Shirley
          Israel and the Jews are the same thing. God has not forgotten his people or else they wouldn't even be mentioned in the book of Revelation.
          The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace.” Numbers 6:24-26

          Comment


          • #6
            God only has one people: the faithful.

            If I am a Gentile and I am faithful to Christ, I am added onto the Promise. If someone is a Jew and they deny Christ, they are removed from the Promise. If someone is a Gentile and they deny Christ, they never had the Promise. If someone is a Jew and they are faithful to Christ, they keep the Promise.

            Being "Jewish" does not automatically give a person favor in God's eyes. Yes, they do have the Law and the prophets, but whether they simply have them or not doesn't matter if they still deny Christ.

            The "covenant people" have always been and always will be the people who are faithful to God. At one point in time the faithful were nearly entirely descended from one ancestor, Abraham, but if those people are not faithful to God, then they have turned their backs on His covenant. Anyone who follows God is a part of the "covenant people." As said before, in Christ, there is neither "Jew nor Gentile."

            The only difference between "Jews" and "Gentiles" is that the Jews have the Law already while the Gentiles have no law. In relation to Christ, being Jewish or Gentile is irrelevant. There isn't any favor shown to the Jews over the Gentiles (though they should come to the Truth more often than the Gentiles, since they had the prophets). But in terms of being called "God's people," He has only ever had one people, being those who were faithful to Him.

            "The Church"
            > Jews + Christ
            > Gentiles + Christ

            Others
            > Jews - Christ
            > Gentiles - Christ
            To This Day

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by timmyb View Post
              Israel and the Jews are the same thing. God has not forgotten his people or else they wouldn't even be mentioned in the book of Revelation.
              Who are God's people according to scripture?

              6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
              8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

              We see here that it has nothing to do with nationality. So what determines whether someone is one of God's people?

              28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
              29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. - Romans 2:28-29

              We see in the above passage that what matters is not one's nationality, but one's heart.

              26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
              27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
              28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
              29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29

              The children of the flesh (natural descendants of Israel) are not the children of God. Those with faith in Christ Jesus are the children of God. There is neither Jew nor Greek. Once again, scripture says that nationality has nothing to do with it. We, Jew and Gentile believers, are all ONE in Christ Jesus. God doesn't see two groups of His people as dispensationalists do. He only see one people of God and that includes all of those who belong to Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.


              Eric

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by markedward View Post
                God only has one people: the faithful.

                If I am a Gentile and I am faithful to Christ, I am added onto the Promise. If someone is a Jew and they deny Christ, they are removed from the Promise. If someone is a Gentile and they deny Christ, they never had the Promise. If someone is a Jew and they are faithful to Christ, they keep the Promise.

                Being "Jewish" does not automatically give a person favor in God's eyes. Yes, they do have the Law and the prophets, but whether they simply have them or not doesn't matter if they still deny Christ.

                The "covenant people" have always been and always will be the people who are faithful to God. At one point in time the faithful were nearly entirely descended from one ancestor, Abraham, but if those people are not faithful to God, then they have turned their backs on His covenant. Anyone who follows God is a part of the "covenant people." As said before, in Christ, there is neither "Jew nor Gentile."

                The only difference between "Jews" and "Gentiles" is that the Jews have the Law already while the Gentiles have no law. In relation to Christ, being Jewish or Gentile is irrelevant. There isn't any favor shown to the Jews over the Gentiles (though they should come to the Truth more often than the Gentiles, since they had the prophets). But in terms of being called "God's people," He has only ever had one people, being those who were faithful to Him.

                "The Church"
                > Jews + Christ
                > Gentiles + Christ

                Others
                > Jews - Christ
                > Gentiles - Christ
                if people are so adamant about the Jews are cast off because they deny christ then why don't we put the Gentiles who deny Christ on the same coin.. if that's the case then why bother with getting anybody saved...

                that's the message i'm getting from everybody as far as the Jews are concerned...

                God gives us a NEW TESTAMENT mandate not to be arrogant toward the Jews because if they were cut off, then we might be too... that's the point i'm trying to make... Israel is the litmus test for a Christian's motive for coming to Christ... If you love the Lord you will love what he loves and the Lord loves Israel and has by no means cast them off and still says that they will all be saved at the end of the age...
                The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace.” Numbers 6:24-26

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by John146 View Post
                  Who are God's people according to scripture?

                  6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
                  8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

                  We see here that it has nothing to do with nationality. So what determines whether someone is one of God's people?

                  28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
                  29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. - Romans 2:28-29

                  We see in the above passage that what matters is not one's nationality, but one's heart.

                  26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
                  27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
                  28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
                  29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. - Galatians 3:26-29

                  The children of the flesh (natural descendants of Israel) are not the children of God. Those with faith in Christ Jesus are the children of God. There is neither Jew nor Greek. Once again, scripture says that nationality has nothing to do with it. We, Jew and Gentile believers, are all ONE in Christ Jesus. God doesn't see two groups of His people as dispensationalists do. He only see one people of God and that includes all of those who belong to Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.


                  Eric
                  aren't we commanded to pray for the Jews as a people? we are grafted in to the jewish root tree... and if we become arrogant toward those who were cut off we increase our chances of falling away when the antichrist comes and begins to focus on destroying ISRAEL as well as the church... if we don't embrace Israel as the beloved of God then we really endanger ourselves too...
                  The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace.” Numbers 6:24-26

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    144,000

                    The 70th week is for the Jew.

                    70 Weeks of years are determined for YOUR PEOPLE (The Jews) & for YOUR Holy City JERUSALEM.

                    When the rapture happens The Holy Spirit no longer will reconize the Christians left behind. He will reveal Jesus to the 144,000 male virgin Jews and dwell inside them. They will preach the gospel to the whole world.
                    And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come (Matthew 24:14).
                    The prophecy states that the gospel of the kingdom will be preached and then the end will come. Therefore, Christ cannot return until this message has been proclaimed in the whole world. However, this verse does not say who or how the gospel will be proclaimed to all nations. Some might imagine that it would be the Church but it's not gonna be the church, it's gonna be the 144,000 Jews sealed by the Holy Spirit who reach the whole world. The saints of the most high will be delivered into the hand of Anti-Christ for a times time & half of time 3 1/2 years. He will behead them for the witness of Jesus Christ Revelation 4:20.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Seeing how I don't believe in the Pre tribulation rapture I must disagree with you Desire... but that's another subject... but I do see your point that the Tribulation is for the Church and for the Jew because we will have a common enemy: the Antichrist and we will be sought out and destroyed both with equal predjiduce
                      The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace.” Numbers 6:24-26

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by timmyb View Post
                        if people are so adamant about the Jews are cast off because they deny christ then why don't we put the Gentiles who deny Christ on the same coin?
                        I did. Did you not read my whole post?

                        If I am a Gentile and I am faithful to Christ, I am added onto the Promise. If someone is a Jew and they deny Christ, they are removed from the Promise. If someone is a Gentile and they deny Christ, they never had the Promise. If someone is a Jew and they are faithful to Christ, they keep the Promise.
                        "The Church"
                        > Jews + Christ
                        > Gentiles + Christ

                        Others
                        > Jews - Christ
                        > Gentiles - Christ
                        I am not "adamant that the Jews are cast off." I am adamant that the Jews and Gentiles who reject Christ are cast off, and the Gentiles and Jews who follow Him are added on.

                        Israel is the litmus test for a Christian's motive for coming to Christ...
                        No, the "litmus test" for a Christian's motive for coming to Christ is to be faithful to God and to follow His will in advancing His kingdom to all nations, not just the Jews.

                        If you love the Lord you will love what he loves and the Lord loves Israel
                        The Lord loves all people, not just Israel.
                        To This Day

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          [quote=timmyb;1597951]
                          Originally posted by ShirleyFord View Post
                          I don't believe that Rev 6 through Rev 19 covers only the last 7 yrs. leading up to the Second Coming, as many teach today.

                          If by "end times" you mean the "last days", the last days began with the First Coming of Christ in the 1st century.[.quote]

                          we are in the last of the last days though... and yes I believe that the Great Tribulation will last only 3 1/2 years.. but I'm not that well versed in the end times yet to prove it



                          then who else could it be? the woman gave birth to the man child which has to be the Messiah... It can't be the church, because Christ started the church... So the woman in Rev has to the the Jewish people.
                          God loves and protects those who love and believe on His Son. The Church existed long before the crucifixion of Christ and Penticost in Acts 2.

                          Jesus came forth from the loins of Abraham who certainly had faith in Him and loved Him:

                          Jn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad

                          Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

                          15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

                          16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

                          17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


                          Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

                          9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

                          10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


                          Abraham was saved. He was a member of the Church.

                          Noah was saved. He likewise was a member of the Church. He found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

                          Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

                          It is written of Abraham, (Gen 15:6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

                          Likewise, we read the same about Noah, (Heb 11:7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.




                          Israel and the Jews are the same thing. God has not forgotten his people or else they wouldn't even be mentioned in the book of Revelation.
                          The 144,000 children of Israel are certainly mentioned. And they are saved members of the Church as we see in Rev 14.

                          1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

                          2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

                          3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

                          4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

                          5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


                          They have the seal of their Father's name written in their forheads.

                          They are with Jesus.

                          They follow Jesus wherever He goes.

                          They are sanctified, set apart from the world.



                          Shirley

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Desire View Post
                            The 70th week is for the Jew.

                            70 Weeks of years are determined for YOUR PEOPLE (The Jews) & for YOUR Holy City JERUSALEM.


                            When the rapture happens The Holy Spirit no longer will reconize the Christians left behind. He will reveal Jesus to the 144,000 male virgin Jews and dwell inside them. They will preach the gospel to the whole world.
                            And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come (Matthew 24:14).
                            The prophecy states that the gospel of the kingdom will be preached and then the end will come. Therefore, Christ cannot return until this message has been proclaimed in the whole world. However, this verse does not say who or how the gospel will be proclaimed to all nations. Some might imagine that it would be the Church but it's not gonna be the church, it's gonna be the 144,000 Jews sealed by the Holy Spirit who reach the whole world. The saints of the most high will be delivered into the hand of Anti-Christ for a times time & half of time 3 1/2 years. He will behead them for the witness of Jesus Christ Revelation 4:20.
                            Where do you find the 144,000 preaching after they are sealed? We find them in Revelation 7 receiving the mark of God. And then in Rev. 14, they are in heaven with Jesus. But nothing about them preaching to anyone.


                            Shirley

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              my point markedward is that God still has unfulfilled promises to unsaved Israel... he promises that all Israel will be saved before the end and he fully expects the Gentile Church to pray for the Jews that we will truly become one new man in Christ... right now not even the Messianic Jews or the Gentile Church are truly one... we still distinguish between them... we aren't truly one even though both sides profess Yeshua..
                              The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you,And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you,And give you peace.” Numbers 6:24-26

                              Comment

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