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  • For pre-trib believers

    The intent of this thread is not to enter into debate and argue who is correct in their point of difference. I ask, please, if you do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture to not post miles of Scripture to prove your position. I realise that there are many here who don't (believe pre-trib) and I have determined to respect your point of veiw, and engage those who asked to be engaged. I would like to draw out those who believe as I, to discuss this position in light of what I post here. You should see that we have been put down so to speak, by our brothers and sisters in Christ for holding to our convictions, basically told that we simply are blind and sometimes inferred to be lost as well. I don't mind if in a gracious manner those who (who believe differently) to join in and discuss among us as I am sure there is things to be gained and understood together regardless.

    Mark


    As it seems that the issue of the day is to bring down the belief and hope of a pre-trib rapture, I have decided to not be defensive as most of us who hold that hope have been forced to do, but to be bold in proclaiming the hope of my salvation, “and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.”

    My hope rests squarely on the promises of Scripture in Christ Jesus, and the fact through careful observation of the whole of Scripture, that God does indeed have different plans for different people. I recognize that the Church, or the betrothed Bride of Christ is indeed different from the unfaithful, but yet to be restored Wife of Jehovah, different from those who saw their need and that the law was weak to accomplish their salvation but believed and trusted God would save them based on His mercy and grace (OT Saints) and finally to those who trust in Him during the time of tribulation.

    I recognize that the prophesy of the Seventy Weeks in Daniel 9 have been cut out of time by God for God to work with His chosen people Israel (and against those who mistreat them), and thier holy city Jerusalem, and that the Church was not included in the first sixty-nine weeks and I find no evidence that she will be in that last, seventieth week.

    Our hope and promises are in Christ and heavenly in nature, we are promised crowns and the reward of Christ, Israel is promised safety in the land and a time of plenty to be ruled by the resurrected king David, their prince (Ezekiel 34:23-24; Ezekiel 37:24-25; Jeremiah 30:9; Hosea 3:4-5) and the Lord Himself.
    How can we ignore the multitudes of verses which center around earthly blessings and yes, judgments also, that are glaringly and obviously told to the nation Israel? Yet none of that is reinforced in the New Testament to prepare us for that time? Ezekiel 30-32 lists nation after nation that will be thrown into the pit for their transgressions against Israel, and that the Lord will enter into judgment with them at that time.

    Ezekiel 38 and 39 explain the last battle before the return of the Lord in the valley of Jehosephat, as does Joel 3. Ez 39:3 tells of the enemy being given to the birds, also Joel 3:12 tells us that there the Lord will sit and judge the nations. Matthew 24:28 says; "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together", referring to His return in glory and power, which He explains in verses 29-30, Jesus' reference to the eagles gathering also in Luke 17:37 as Jesus describes the judgment of the nations in 17:34-37. Reference is also made to this in Revelation 19:17 and 21. I think it is important to note the similarity of these eagles or birds.

    It is at this time that the Lord Jesus says that the angels will gather the elect from the 4 winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:31). This is clearly after the physical return of Jesus Christ. Yet in Revelation 19:7-8 the marriage of the Lamb has come and the Bride is granted to be arrayed in fine linen, then in Rev. 19:16 Christ is seen leaving heaven and following Him are those who are clothed in fine linen, white and pure. How can this be? The only way can be a pre-tribulation rapture of those who will be granted to be arrayed in fine linen, so who are they?

    There must be saints on earth at the Lord Jesus’ return in glory and power, and there must be saints with Him when He comes. Here is why I believe this to be so important to understand.

    There must be saints on earth when Christ returns, Matthew 24:30-31 is important to see why. Jesus appears and all will know it is the Lord “even they who pierced Him” (Rev. 1:7), then His angels will gather the elect, tribulation saints and OT saints. The gathering of the nations in judgment begins in Matthew 24:36 and is explained through the end of chapter 25. At the Lord Jesus’ return the nations are gathered in judgment, for what? How they have treated His Brethren (Matthew 25:31-46; Joel 3; Ezekiel 38 & 39). Our judgment is only for rewards, not sins as Paul explained in 1 Cor. 3:12-15, and 2 Cor. 5:10. This judgment of the nations results in some being sent to everlasting punishment, and might I add these are all living people to be kept separate from the great white throne judgment of the resurrected unrighteous.

    If the believers on earth at the end of the great tribulation, and those that survive the battle in the valley of Jehosaphat (if there are any survivors) are raptured then to accompany the Lord Jesus on His presentation in power and glory….who is left to judge? Israel (His Brethren) is not in judgment here, it’s the goat (unbelieving gentiles) and sheep (believing gentiles) nations for how they treated His Brethren. A post tribulation, pre return of Christ in glory rapture, simply cannot be possible to allow any sheep to be present.

    The Bride are those who will be with our Lord Jesus as He returns according to 1 Thessalonians 2:19 and 2 Thessalonians 3:13. So there must be believers on earth, living tribulation saints at this time.


    The Harvest of Pentecost must teach us something as to the nature of salvation and the peoples involved and the resurrection.

    We agree:
    Passover; fulfilled in Christ.
    Feast of unleavened bread; fulfilled in Christ.
    Feast of firstfruits; fulfilled in Christ.
    Feast of weeks; fulfilled in the giving of the Holy Spirit.

    The harvest holds significant truths that show different peoples.
    Lev 23:22
    ‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger: I am the LORD your God.’”

    The owners of the fields harvest the land, they were told to not fully harvest the corners (for the poor), nor gather any gleanings (for the strangers).
    The owners of the land is Israel, the poor in the land were the Samaritans, the stangers in the land were the Gentiles. This also correlates to the great commission to preach the gospel to the Jews first, then to Sameria, then to the rest of the world. We recognize Peter in prominence because he is always mentioned first, we recognize grace in the opening of Paul’s letters and give grace prominence in doctrine as it is always mentioned first, why not with Israel, the Jews as they are always mentioned first? We’re the strangers who were to glean the fields, not the owners, but because of the marvelous grace we have been shown, we seem to have taken over the place of prominence that God has reserved for His Brethren, all three were included in the harvest.

    Why the promises of escape?

    There are mentionings in the NT that one may escape the wrath to come, why and how? As I have said in other places the gospels are different for good reasons, and they were written with different target audiences. Matthew, to the Jew, in the Olivet Discourse, gives the most detail from the destruction of Jerusalem, clear through the Tribulation to the Judgment of the nations. He mentioned to watch for the abomination of desolation also. Mark’s account which has less details also gives the warning to watch for the abomination of desolation and not to go after false christs.
    Luke’s account is particularly different, there is no mention of the abomination of desolation to be watchful for, and from the destruction of Jerusalem (which they all describe) to warn the believers to flee in 70AD, Luke goes directly to after the Great Tribulation and to the return of Christ in glory. In Luke 21:34-36, we are told watch (because of what the Lord just told us), and pray that we may be counted worthy to escape these things and stand before Jesus Christ.

    1 Thess 5:9-10;
    "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him."

    and 1 Thess 1:10,
    "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

    and to the Church in Philadelphia, Rev 3:10.

    "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

    The early teachings of the apostles in Acts were not slanted toward a pre-trib rapture, they knew nothing of one in the first place, it was Paul who taught this after he joined them from his learning in Arabia. Peter and the others in Acts were still thinking that Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel at that time or very soon. It was all part of the mystery of the church that Paul declared was revealed to him alone.

    And finally, there are patterns in Scripture that teach us that we will be saved from the wrath of God on the world, Noah believed God and was saved from the wrath which came. Lot and his family were safely removed from Sodom and Gomorrah prior to the wrath of God. Although where Jesus tells about the two accounts, His focus is on the state of the unbelieving ones as to the suddenness and destruction that came upon them in a time they thought things were going along as usual, but we can see that Noah and Lot were indeed taken out ahead of time, or as in Noah’s case a parallel can be drawn for Israel that they will be kept through this time of wrath.

    One final note, there can be seen in the NT, three separate appearances of the Lord Jesus after His ascention to heaven. I believe that these do speak of the three aspects of His return which causes so much trouble for some to believe the pre-tribulational’s position.

    The first occurance is at the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7:56, next, in Acts 9, the Lord appears to Saul (1 Cor. 15:8) where He was seen and heard and he beheld Him in glory brighter that the noon sun. The last and third time He was seen was by John while on the isle of Patmos.

    These three appearings coincide with what we believe will be the three aspects to His second coming. First He will appear to His waiting Church, represented by Stephen, next He will appear to Israel who Saul represents, he was a devout Jew, a Hebrew of Hebrews, he was converted when he “Looked upon Him whom they pierced.” And the nation Israel will be saved. And finally He will appear as John saw Him as the One who comes to judge the world and set up His kingdom.
    Mark


    “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

    (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

  • #2
    No argument here! :::zipping my lips::: This is a wonderful post! Thanks!
    Romans 15:30 KJV 30Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

    Comment


    • #3
      These three appearings coincide with what we believe will be the three aspects to His second coming. First He will appear to His waiting Church, represented by Stephen, next He will appear to Israel who Saul represents, he was a devout Jew, a Hebrew of Hebrews, he was converted when he “Looked upon Him whom they pierced.” And the nation Israel will be saved. And finally He will appear as John saw Him as the One who comes to judge the world and set up His kingdom.
      Thats a long post so not sure where to begin, so picked this.
      Aren't the second and third pretty much at the same time? Wouldn't it be His Second Advent when they 'Look upon Him whom they pierced?


      sigpic

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      • #4
        Originally posted by menJesus View Post
        No argument here! :::zipping my lips::: This is a wonderful post! Thanks!
        I am note asking you to "zip you lips" just not to focus on disproving me, I know many who believe differently from me are well studied and intelligent, we obviously put priority on different things. I have read many many opposite posts and some of the things we have in common, some we do not. I have been strengthened by others veiws as well.
        Mark


        “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

        (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by quiet dove View Post
          Thats a long post so not sure where to begin, so picked this.
          Aren't the second and third pretty much at the same time? Wouldn't it be His Second Advent when they 'Look upon Him whom they pierced?
          I would say yes, but to two totally different outcomes and peoples.

          I have read arguments that the Lord coming to rapture His Church, then coming years later in power and glory is essentially two comings. I believe it is say segments of one event, or seperate aspects of one.

          Take 2 Peter 3:10;
          "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

          Is the Day of the Lord one day? 2 Peter 3:10 covers over a thousand years! We recognize the Day of the Lord when He pours out His wrath upon the ungodly, when He physically returns and sets up His kingdom on earth, when His appearing is as a theif in the night, then Peter tells us that the destruction of the heavens and earth, and the creation of the new heavens and earth are all the Day of the Lord!

          John 5:28-29;
          "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

          Or the Lord Jesus, He speaks of "the hour" of the resurrection, if we look to Revelation we see a thousand years between these two events, so why not accept seven years prior for the dead in Christ before the OT saints in Matthew 24:31?

          My point being is that there are multiple events that fall into this "singular" discription.
          Mark


          “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

          (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

          Comment


          • #6
            I wasn't arguing it, I have just never thought about it. I'm pre trib so I found it interesting food for thought.


            sigpic

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Mark F View Post


              As it seems that the issue of the day is to bring down the belief and hope of a pre-trib rapture, I have decided to not be defensive as most of us who hold that hope have been forced to do, but to be bold in proclaiming the hope of my salvation, “and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.”
              I agree. It is God's son I am waiting for, not the man of sin.

              There must be saints on earth at the Lord Jesus’ return in glory and power, and there must be saints with Him when He comes. Here is why I believe this to be so important to understand.
              I agree but I believe the saints on earth at the time of Christ's second coming to earth is speaking of the 144,000 who are sealed at the sixth seal. Those saints who are coming with him are the great multitude which are mentioned when the sixth seal is opened. I see the sixth seal as being opened before the great tribulation starts. I see this great multitude at the sixth seal as being the church who has been raptured. That is why they already have white robes (new glorified bodies). I know there are others who believe in a pre-trib rapture as I do who believe this great multitude is speaking about tribulation saints. Since they already have white robes, I believe this is talking about the church who has been raptured.

              I have read arguments that the Lord coming to rapture His Church, then coming years later in power and glory is essentially two comings. I believe it is say segments of one event, or seperate aspects of one.
              I agree. There are two parts to his coming - his coming for his church and his coming with his church.

              Comment


              • #8
                cwb,

                These verses make me put it all at His feet:

                Luke 18:8
                8 "I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”


                Matthew 7:14;
                14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
                Mark


                “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

                (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mark F View Post
                  I am note asking you to "zip you lips" just not to focus on disproving me, I know many who believe differently from me are well studied and intelligent, we obviously put priority on different things. I have read many many opposite posts and some of the things we have in common, some we do not. I have been strengthened by others veiws as well.
                  I am neither well-studied, or intelligent, and like you, I have read many, many threads on this. And now, all I am is confused...

                  I said I would zip my lips, to let you know that I will not participate, but definitely read and study, on this thread. I, too, am looking for the truth on this subject...

                  Thanks again for posting it.
                  Romans 15:30 KJV 30Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Corruption cannot inherit incorruption!!!!!

                    According to the following, we cannot inherit the Kingdom of God or eternal life until we have put on incorruption which as it is written does not happen until the last trumpet;

                    1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

                    1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

                    1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

                    1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

                    1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

                    Can we therefore expect to be changed and enter heaven and inherit eternal life before the last day?

                    According to this scripture when are the saints and prophets to be rewarded according to the promise of Jesus?

                    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

                    Firstfruits

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Firstfruits,

                      I agree with what you are saying. Corruption cannot be a part of the kingdom of God.

                      I do struggle with trying to use Revelation (as a whole) to put order to the coming events. Many say that the resurrection is the seventh trumpet, I agree, but as I posted I cannot put every aspect of what we would call one event into a tiny chronological box, some descriptions of one event can cover many years in between.
                      Mark


                      “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

                      (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I take great solace in being spared the wrath of God. It is the wrath of man and Satan that takes it's toll on me.
                        Matt 9:13
                        13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                        NASU

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                          I take great solace in being spared the wrath of God. It is the wrath of man and Satan that takes it's toll on me.
                          Hehehe,I never thought of it that way, I agree and to that I say AMEN!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mark F View Post
                            ...These three appearings coincide with what we believe will be the three aspects to His second coming...
                            What do you mean "we", Kemosabe?

                            From one pre-tribber to another, lose the different "aspects" or "phases" of Jesus' Second Coming. Agree with your partial preterist, a-mil and post-trib brothers and sisters that there is only one second coming of Jesus to the earth.

                            Restudy the word "parousia" and you'll find that Stephanas, Titus and Paul, as well as the anti-christ (in all places 2 Thess 2!) all have "comings" in the NT. You will also see that Peter used the word to refer to Jesus' first "coming" to the earth. Once you figure out the true cross-the-board meaning of "parousia" you will also understand that Jesus' "coming" in the air to gather/change the Church is not the same "coming" as His Second Coming to the earth. And certainly not the same "coming" as the anti-christ has in 2 Thess 2:9.

                            To my partial preterist, a-mil and post-trib brothers and sisters I would offer the same challenge as I have given Mark. But in your case, I would ask that you lose the idea that the word "coming" in the NT always refers to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to the earth. It doesn't. Same Greek word, same meaning. Different applications by context.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              IBWatching,

                              I see your point, my intent was not say that there was more than one second coming, my point is that as you say, the Lord's coming in the air is different from His coming physically to earth, but yet part of that larger event. I used the word "aspects" because I have read where some think that His coming in the air and then His physical return constitute two comings.

                              I said "we" because as it turns out I think you said the same thing, but in clearer terms, thanks for the input, Kemosabe.


                              (And I will look into "parousia" more deeply)
                              Last edited by Mark F; Apr 13th 2008, 04:24 PM. Reason: added text
                              Mark


                              “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

                              (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

                              Comment

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