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  • Till The Heavens Be No More!!!!! (moved from ETC to WR because of SoulSleep doctrine)

    Job's outlook on Death, The Grave, The Resurrection and end of the world.

    Death

    Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
    11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
    12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
    13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
    14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
    15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

    The Grave

    Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
    19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.
    20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
    21 Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
    22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

    The Resurrection

    Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
    Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
    Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

    Regarding being resurrected when the Heavens are no more, Jesus is exempt as when he died his body, soul/spirit was only in the grave for three days.

    Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    His soul was only in the grave until he was resurrected at the third day.

    Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    The message of death, the grave, the resurrection is the same today as it was then.

    When Jesus gave up the ghost he went to the grave, then he was resurrected, and then he ascended to Heaven.

    The oder has not changed.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
    Job's outlook on Death, The Grave, The Resurrection and end of the world.

    Death

    Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
    11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
    12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
    13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
    14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
    15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

    The Grave

    Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!
    19 I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave.
    20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,
    21 Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
    22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

    The Resurrection

    Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
    Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
    Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

    Regarding being resurrected when the Heavens are no more, Jesus is exempt as when he died his body, soul/spirit was only in the grave for three days.

    Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    His soul was only in the grave until he was resurrected at the third day.

    Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    The message of death, the grave, the resurrection is the same today as it was then.

    When Jesus gave up the ghost he went to the grave, then he was resurrected, and then he ascended to Heaven.

    The oder has not changed.
    FirstFruits....

    I LOVE how you always use Scripture to show what you believe. What I mean is, oftentimes it is so easy for us to want to (argue) out what WE "believe" by logic, opinion or our own flesh. It is rare to see someone allow the Scriptures alone speak for themselves. It's very tempting to "help out" God and put in "our two cents" when God's Word is enough. I'm not saying that we shouldn't discuss our opinions. I am just saying that it is so encouraging to see someone LET the Scriptures speak. I can learn a lot by your example!

    I tried to send you a PM, but it wouldn't let me.... so there it is...for the world to see.

    Now... I would like to know your (opinion)!
    Jesus is exempt as when he died his body, soul/spirit was only in the grave for three days.


    I agree with everything that you posted... as it is clearly Scriptural... except that I am curious about your comment on Jesus's spirit. In Luke, Jesus said; "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." Luke 23:46

    Now, I believe that the soul and the spirit have similarities, but I do believe they are still different. I believe the soul is the mind, will and emotions. And I believe the spirit is the literal BREATH of life. I know there will be some that will say that they are the same thing, but I think Scripture reveals otherwise.

    Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow."

    "Joints and marrow" are very intimately involved, but they are not the same thing... just as soul and spirit in this verse.

    1 Thess 5:23 "May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

    SPIRIT
    pneuma NT:4151 primarily denotes "the wind" (akin to pneo, "to breathe, blow"); also "breath"; then, especially "the spirit," which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful.

    We see that the Lord's PNEUMA (breath) is used in this, one of many verses, that calls the BREATH "PNEUMA".

    2 Thess 2:8
    "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath (PNEUMA) of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

    AND....
    Luke 23:46: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. (PNEUMA)"

    AND...
    Acts 7:59: "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit (PNEUMA).

    If Jesus said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit," then I would assume that when Jesus "breathed his last," the BREATH of life returned to the Father and Jesus' body and soul went to the grave. Because Jesus DID say that he had not yet ascended to the Father AFTER he rose from the dead. (John 20:17) Can we truly say that "breath" is part of our makeup? The breath is what God breathes into us that makes us live and the oxygen (breath of life) is what sustains us. So to me, it would make sense when Jesus committed his "spirit," he was simply giving back his "breath" to the Father... since we KNOW that he did not ascend for 3 more days.

    What says you??

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Alyssa S View Post
      FirstFruits....

      I LOVE how you always use Scripture to show what you believe. What I mean is, oftentimes it is so easy for us to want to (argue) out what WE "believe" by logic, opinion or our own flesh. It is rare to see someone allow the Scriptures alone speak for themselves. It's very tempting to "help out" God and put in "our two cents" when God's Word is enough. I'm not saying that we shouldn't discuss our opinions. I am just saying that it is so encouraging to see someone LET the Scriptures speak. I can learn a lot by your example!

      I tried to send you a PM, but it wouldn't let me.... so there it is...for the world to see.

      Now... I would like to know your (opinion)!


      I agree with everything that you posted... as it is clearly Scriptural... except that I am curious about your comment on Jesus's spirit. In Luke, Jesus said; "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." Luke 23:46

      Now, I believe that the soul and the spirit have similarities, but I do believe they are still different. I believe the soul is the mind, will and emotions. And I believe the spirit is the literal BREATH of life. I know there will be some that will say that they are the same thing, but I think Scripture reveals otherwise.

      Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow."

      "Joints and marrow" are very intimately involved, but they are not the same thing... just as soul and spirit in this verse.

      1 Thess 5:23 "May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

      SPIRIT
      pneuma NT:4151 primarily denotes "the wind" (akin to pneo, "to breathe, blow"); also "breath"; then, especially "the spirit," which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful.

      We see that the Lord's PNEUMA (breath) is used in this, one of many verses, that calls the BREATH "PNEUMA".

      2 Thess 2:8
      "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath (PNEUMA) of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

      AND....
      Luke 23:46: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. (PNEUMA)"

      AND...
      Acts 7:59: "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit (PNEUMA).

      If Jesus said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit," then I would assume that when Jesus "breathed his last," the BREATH of life returned to the Father and Jesus' body and soul went to the grave. Because Jesus DID say that he had not yet ascended to the Father AFTER he rose from the dead. (John 20:17) Can we truly say that "breath" is part of our makeup? The breath is what God breathes into us that makes us live and the oxygen (breath of life) is what sustains us. So to me, it would make sense when Jesus committed his "spirit," he was simply giving back his "breath" to the Father... since we KNOW that he did not ascend for 3 more days.

      What says you??
      First let me say thank you for your encouragement.

      Now to answer your question.

      According to the following Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after his resurrection, then he ascended

      Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

      His soul was not left in hell; Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

      The word "SOUL" has a few meanings, one is Spirit another is the ghost another is the breath or life.

      So Jesus gave up the ghost, and his soul/spirit when to hell untill his resurrection, then his ascension.

      I hope this explains my understanding of what is written. There are other scriptures if you need them.

      Firstfruits
      Last edited by Firstfruits; Apr 25th 2008, 03:10 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
        First let me say thank you for your encouragement.

        Now to answer your question.

        According to the following Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after his resurrection, then his ascen

        Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

        His soul was not left in hell; Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

        The word "SOUL" has a few meanings, one is Spirit another is the ghost another is the breath or life.

        So Jesus gave up the ghost, and his soul/spirit when to hell untill his resurrection, then his ascension.

        I hope this explains my understanding of what is written. There are other scriptures if you need them.

        Firstfruits
        You are quite welcome for the encouragement!

        If Jesus' spirit is the same exact thing as his soul, then how do we explain what Jesus said? "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. When he said this, he BREATHED his last. (gave up the ghost)" Luke 23:46

        The Greek word for BREATHED or "gave up the ghost" is "EK-PNEO." And it means to EXPIRE. Part of that Greek word is "PNEO" which means "to breathe."

        John 10:15: "I lay down my LIFE (SOUL-"PSUCHE") for my sheep."
        It would appear here that the (soul-life) goes DOWN to the grave... and that the (spirit-breath) goes UP to the Father. "Father, into your hands I commit my (spirit"-breath).

        I realize that Strongs gives "breath" as the first definition for "Psuche" (SOUL). But I think this is an improper translation/definition of that word. Doesn't "Psuche" mean that a Soul is a "BREATHING CREATURE" and not "BREATH-WIND-CURRENT OF AIR" which is clearly the definition of "spirit-pneuma"?

        Genesis 2:7 "The Lord God formed the MAN from the dust of the ground and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH of life, and the man became a living SOUL."

        MAN + BREATH OF LIFE =A LIVING SOUL.

        The Hebrew word for SOUL is "NEPHESH" and it means "A BREATHING CREATURE."

        OT:5315 <HEBREW> nephesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
        (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

        Comment


        • #5
          Valley of the Dry Bones come to LIFE by BREATH

          Also...

          Ezek 37:4-10:
          4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make BREATH enter you, and you will come to LIFE. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put BREATH in you, and you will come to LIFE. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'"

          The word BREATH in the Old Testament is "RUWACH" and it is also the SPIRIT.

          OT:7307 <HEBREW> ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being


          7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no BREATH in them.

          9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and BREATHE into these slain, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.'" (MAN + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL)

          10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet — a vast army.
          NIV
          Last edited by Alyssa S; Apr 25th 2008, 02:27 PM. Reason: sp

          Comment


          • #6
            This subject can get tricky b/c soul is used in 2 main ways in Scripture. In the OT, 'soul' primarily means a breathing being. But language evolves and by the NT times the word 'soul' was also used in a way basically synonymous with 'spirit.' So it is not the case that we can simply look at 1 verse and define soul and then look at another verse and read that same definition into its usage of soul. We must take each verse and attempt to understand it by context and comparison with the rest of Scripture.

            Personally, I prefer to allow soul to mean 'breathing being' in my mind, so when it is used otherwise, I just think of it as a synonym for spirit. I believe that the few verses in the NT that make it sound like the soul and spirit are 2 different immaterial parts of man are mis-interpreted. In some of those verses it is simply a case of the author piling up synonyms for affect. In other cases we've just mishandled the verse. In Hebrews 4:12, for instance, we force the author to be saying that soul and spirit can be divided from each other and thus are distinguishable. But why couldn't he simply be saying that God's Word is able to divide soul AND spirit, not soul FROM spirit. In other words, God is saying to us, in that verse, that He's able to penetrate that immaterial aspect of us right to the core and the verse simply describes this power with 2 words that basically mean the same thing. I think this interpretation fits better with the rest of the verse. Joints and marrow are not connected (marrow is inside of bone). It's not that the joints get separated FROM the marrow, it's that God's Word has the power to separate joints just like God's Word has the power to separate marrow. Both are under the skin and unseen. They are non-surface stuff. In the same way, as the end of the verse declares, God is able to know our immaterial side. He is able to penetrate our very thoughts.
            The Matthew Never Knew
            The Knew Kingdom

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
              First let me say thank you for your encouragement.

              Now to answer your question.

              According to the following Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after his resurrection, then his ascen

              Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

              His soul was not left in hell; Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

              The word "SOUL" has a few meanings, one is Spirit another is the ghost another is the breath or life.

              So Jesus gave up the ghost, and his soul/spirit when to hell untill his resurrection, then his ascension.

              I hope this explains my understanding of what is written. There are other scriptures if you need them.

              Firstfruits
              It doesn't say Jesus gave up his soul/spirit to hell. It says He gave it up to the Father. Just like Stephen gave up his spirit to Jesus.

              59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
              60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. - Acts 7:59-60

              Notice that Stephen asked Jesus to receive his spirit. Where was Jesus? In heaven (Acts 7:56). That means Stephen's spirit went to heaven with Jesus.

              6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
              7(For we walk by faith, not by sight )
              8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

              In this passage, Paul implies that when one is still alive physically, we are apart from the Lord (because He is in heaven and we are on earth). He also implied that to be absent from the body or physically dead is to be present with the Lord (spiritually in heaven).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Alyssa S View Post
                You are quite welcome for the encouragement!

                If Jesus' spirit is the same exact thing as his soul, then how do we explain what Jesus said? "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. When he said this, he BREATHED his last. (gave up the ghost)" Luke 23:46

                The Greek word for BREATHED or "gave up the ghost" is "EK-PNEO." And it means to EXPIRE. Part of that Greek word is "PNEO" which means "to breathe."

                John 10:15: "I lay down my LIFE (SOUL-"PSUCHE") for my sheep."
                It would appear here that the (soul-life) goes DOWN to the grave... and that the (spirit-breath) goes UP to the Father. "Father, into your hands I commit my (spirit"-breath).

                I realize that Strongs gives "breath" as the first definition for "Psuche" (SOUL). But I think this is an improper translation/definition of that word. Doesn't "Psuche" mean that a Soul is a "BREATHING CREATURE" and not "BREATH-WIND-CURRENT OF AIR" which is clearly the definition of "spirit-pneuma"?

                Genesis 2:7 "The Lord God formed the MAN from the dust of the ground and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH of life, and the man became a living SOUL."

                MAN + BREATH OF LIFE =A LIVING SOUL.

                The Hebrew word for SOUL is "NEPHESH" and it means "A BREATHING CREATURE."

                OT:5315 <HEBREW> nephesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
                (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
                If Jesus did not ascend to the Father/heaven until after his resurection how would he have ascended when he gave up the ghost/died?

                Did Jesus ascend to heaven and then reutrn to earth if so why did he say in the following that he had not yet ascened?

                Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

                Mk 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

                Lk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

                Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

                Again I ask did he ascend and return, and then ascend again even thogh he said he had not?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by John146 View Post
                  It doesn't say Jesus gave up his soul/spirit to hell. It says He gave it up to the Father. Just like Stephen gave up his spirit to Jesus.

                  59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
                  60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. - Acts 7:59-60

                  Notice that Stephen asked Jesus to receive his spirit. Where was Jesus? In heaven (Acts 7:56). That means Stephen's spirit went to heaven with Jesus.

                  6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
                  7(For we walk by faith, not by sight )
                  8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

                  In this passage, Paul implies that when one is still alive physically, we are apart from the Lord (because He is in heaven and we are on earth). He also implied that to be absent from the body or physically dead is to be present with the Lord (spiritually in heaven).
                  With regards to the following are his body and soul not in hell/ the grave?

                  Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

                  Jesus said he had not ascended to heaven and he did not until he was resurrected from the dead.

                  Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

                  When do you beleive he ascended to the Father/Heaven, regarding what he said to Mary?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                    If Jesus did not ascend to the Father/heaven until after his resurection how would he have ascended when he gave up the ghost/died?

                    Did Jesus ascend to heaven and then reutrn to earth if so why did he say in the following that he had not yet ascened?

                    Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

                    Mk 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

                    Lk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

                    Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

                    Again I ask did he ascend and return, and then ascend again even thogh he said he had not?
                    You're not differentiating between ascending spiritually and ascending physically. He was only saying He had not yet ascended physically. The following passage speaks of His spiritual ascension:

                    50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
                    52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
                    53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. - Matthew 27:50-53

                    Notice that it says many saints physically arose from the grave right after Jesus died and yielded up His spirit. It says they came out of the graves "after His resurrection". Yet, He was not going to be physically resurrected for another 3 days. So, what else could this mean except that they arose after He spiritually arose up to heaven? The Greek word used for "resurrection" in Matthew 27:53 is egersis (Strong's G1454). It can mean "a rising up". It does not have to mean a resurrection from the dead. How could it mean that? The "resurrection" spoken of in that verse happened right after He physically died. His spirit didn't die, so it couldn't be resurrected from the dead.

                    Let me put it this way. He gave up His spirit to the Father in heaven when He died. Immediately following that is when many bodies of the saints were resurrected. It says this happened AFTER His resurrection. Well, we know it didn't happen after His physical resurrection or after He ascended bodily to heaven. So, it had to have happened after He ascended spiritually to heaven.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                      With regards to the following are his body and soul not in hell/ the grave?

                      Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

                      Jesus said he had not ascended to heaven and he did not until he was resurrected from the dead.

                      Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

                      When do you beleive he ascended to the Father/Heaven, regarding what he said to Mary?
                      You replied to my post with more questions rather than responding directly to what I said. What do you think it means when it says Jesus gave up His ghost or spirit to the Father? What do you think it means when Stephen asked Jesus to receive his spirit?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by John146 View Post
                        You're not differentiating between ascending spiritually and ascending physically. He was only saying He had not yet ascended physically. The following passage speaks of His spiritual ascension:

                        50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
                        52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
                        53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. - Matthew 27:50-53

                        Notice that it says many saints physically arose from the grave right after Jesus died and yielded up His spirit. It says they came out of the graves "after His resurrection". Yet, He was not going to be physically resurrected for another 3 days. So, what else could this mean except that they arose after He spiritually arose up to heaven? The Greek word used for "resurrection" in Matthew 27:53 is egersis (Strong's G1454). It can mean "a rising up". It does not have to mean a resurrection from the dead. How could it mean that? The "resurrection" spoken of in that verse happened right after He physically died. His spirit didn't die, so it couldn't be resurrected from the dead.

                        Let me put it this way. He gave up His spirit to the Father in heaven when He died. Immediately following that is when many bodies of the saints were resurrected. It says this happened AFTER His resurrection. Well, we know it didn't happen after His physical resurrection or after He ascended bodily to heaven. So, it had to have happened after He ascended spiritually to heaven.
                        Jesus said to Mary that he had not ascended back to heaven, now if he had ascended why did he say that he had not?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by John146 View Post
                          You replied to my post with more questions rather than responding directly to what I said. What do you think it means when it says Jesus gave up His ghost or spirit to the Father? What do you think it means when Stephen asked Jesus to receive his spirit?
                          When Jesus gave up the ghost it means that he died.

                          Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

                          Job 10:18 Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me!

                          Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost.

                          Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

                          With the understanding that the soul and the spirit are one, then for Stephen or Jesus knowing the scriptures knew where they would go when they died but they were assured to be with the Father at the appointed time.

                          21 Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
                          22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

                          Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
                          Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
                          Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

                          Sorry for not answering before.

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                          • #14
                            Dividing Soul and Spirit...not Soul and Soul

                            Originally posted by matthew94 View Post

                            In Hebrews 4:12, for instance, we force the author to be saying that soul and spirit can be divided from each other and thus are distinguishable. But why couldn't he simply be saying that God's Word is able to divide soul AND spirit, not soul FROM spirit.
                            Hi Matthew94!

                            I can see what you are saying in regards to the soul and spirit being divided when just looking at those two words. But that wasn't the only example given and I think there was a reason for that. When someone receives a bone MARROW transplant, they are not receiving both the marrow AND the bone. The marrow is extracted from within the bone. I realize that marrow and joint are very intimately involved, but they are two completely different things that serve two completely different purposes. Yes, marrow is inside the BONE... but from what I understand, marrow does not exist IN the JOINT itself. So they do "connect." It's kind of like a Vessel and Blood. The two are very intimately connected, but still play different roles in the human body. Thus they CAN be divided. I'm not so sure that we are really "forcing" the author to be saying anything that he isn't. It seems pretty clear that the author was showing that two things that are very different, yet very intimately related, can be divided.

                            There is no life. ...if there is not BOTH joint and marrow.
                            There is no life....if there is not BOTH soul and spirit.
                            These two things work together to bring life...and so one is VERY important to the other. And I don't see how this would take anything away from the Sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. I think this verse is just another of many that has much depth to it's meaning. Why can't God be showing that his Word has the power to divide these things from the other, while at the same time giving us an anatomy lesson? I think it's very important that we not miss the fine details because there are so many mysteries to unfold and treasures to find if we keep ourselves open to them.

                            It's not that the joints get separated FROM the marrow, it's that God's Word has the power to separate joints just like God's Word has the power to separate marrow.
                            But the verse doesn't say that God is dividing joints from joints...or soul from soul. He is dividing/separating two completely different things that are very intimately related. "It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow..."

                            If soul and spirit are the same exact thing, then how do we explain this verse?

                            1 Thess 5:23 "May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                              If Jesus did not ascend to the Father/heaven until after his resurection how would he have ascended when he gave up the ghost/died?

                              Did Jesus ascend to heaven and then reutrn to earth if so why did he say in the following that he had not yet ascened?

                              Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

                              Mk 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

                              Lk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

                              Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

                              Again I ask did he ascend and return, and then ascend again even thogh he said he had not?
                              I am with you!! I do not believe that Jesus went to HEAVEN when he died. I think it is very clear that Jesus was IN the grave awaiting his resurrection. The very important point I am trying to make is that the SPIRIT and SOUL are two different things. The spirit is simply the BREATH (AIR) that returned to the Father. This does not have to mean that Jesus ascended to Heaven. It just means that the BREATH that sustains life returned to the Father, while Jesus was in the grave.

                              No... he did not ascend to Heaven and then return. I, like you are trying to point out, feel that that belief is clearly un-biblical. But we cannot ignore the fact that Jesus said, "Father I commit my spirit unto you...and then he breathed is last." Is that a coincidence that SPIRIT means BREATH... and when Jesus said these words the BREATH of life departed him? He went to the grave to await his resurrection as his breath returned to the Father.

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