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Am I right? Amils and Premil seem to differ in their expectancy of the new earth?

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  • Am I right? Amils and Premil seem to differ in their expectancy of the new earth?

    Amils and Premils seem to be in agreement that the kingdom of God is eternal. They also seem to be in agreement that there is a dynamic continuity between the spiritual kingdom inaugurated before the cross and the final physical reality of the kingdom that is established at Christ’s coming. Both also see the progressive growth of the kingdom throughout the nations in this intra-Advent period.

    Where Amils and Premils go their separate ways (major) is in their expectation of the new earth and the physical manifestation of the kingdom that Christ introduces at His Coming. The two hopes are miles apart. The Amillennialist believes that Christ destroys every vestige of corruption and consequence of the fall at His return. Romans 8:19-23 confirms,For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be (future tense) delivered from the bondage of corruption (death, sin and decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

    Creation and the creature will see a final and complete deliverance from the current bondage of corruption. Paul locates this liberation for creation at the time when the saints experience "the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body." This conclusively proves that the glorification of the earth occurs simultaneously with the glorification of our bodies.

    I Corinthians 15:50 - makes it explicitly clear,“flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”This passage is speaking of the period immediately following the Coming of Christ. The whole context is man's ultimate deliverance from the corruptible state. It is talking of glorification and the eternal state on the new earth. This reading confirms that the new earth that is to be inherited is totally free of corruption. It is a perfect state. Man must therefore be changed to be worthy to inhabit it. Every vestige of the old must be removed. The fact is, when that which is perfectis comethenthat which is in part shall be done away(1 Corinthians 13:12).

    Currently, our state is corrupt, as we are blighted by the ongoing existence of innate sin within us, but when we shall see Jesus we shall be like Him, “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known (1 Corinthians 13:12).


    At Christ’s return “we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge (or full discernment) of the Son of God, unto andra teleion (or) a man perfect, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.” This will be a day when every last evidence and remembrance of sin, rebellion and pride will be eliminated.

    The change to the earth will come by way of the fiery conflagration. Obviously, "flesh and blood" or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last trace of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer. Amils see the Lord's return as climactic and all-consummating. They believe Jesus is Coming to destroy the wicked and all wickedness and introduce a new pristine order of righteousness on the new earth for ever. Peter confirms,"we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."(2 Peter 3:13).


    The Premillennial millennium seems to be a re-run of this current age with all the bondage of corruption (including sin, death, decay, wickedness, rebellion) not only continuing but prospering in the Premillennial paradigm. They aspire to an evolving millennium that gradually and increasingly becomes glorious with the supposed continued progressive increase and growth through the government of Jesus. However, when we analysis their millennium it is seen to be the opposite. Rather than it being a progressively glorious age, it regressively degenerates into sin, death, rebellion and war. Rather than the wicked and wickedness being subjugated, the opposite occurs – they prosper and increase. The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as the sand of the sea against the camp of the saints. Scripture knows nothing of such a process. Scripture make no mention of, or allowance for, any imperfect semi-glorious/semi-corrupt transitional age in-between “this present time” or age and the eternal “age to come.” This seems to be in contradiction to many Scriptures.

    Paul
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  • #2
    Originally posted by wpm View Post
    Amils and Premils seem to be in agreement that the kingdom of God is eternal. They also seem to be in agreement that there is a dynamic continuity between the spiritual kingdom inaugurated before the cross and the final physical reality of the kingdom that is established at Christ’s coming. Both also see the progressive growth of the kingdom throughout the nations in this intra-Advent period.

    Where Amils and Premils go their separate ways (major) is in their expectation of the new earth and the physical manifestation of the kingdom that Christ introduces at His Coming. The two hopes are miles apart. The Amillennialist believes that Christ destroys every vestige of corruption and consequence of the fall at His return. Romans 8:19-23 confirms,For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be (future tense) delivered from the bondage of corruption (death, sin and decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

    Creation and the creature will see a final and complete deliverance from the current bondage of corruption. Paul locates this liberation for creation at the time when the saints experience "the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body." This conclusively proves that the glorification of the earth occurs simultaneously with the glorification of our bodies.

    I Corinthians 15:50 - makes it explicitly clear,“flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”This passage is speaking of the period immediately following the Coming of Christ. The whole context is man's ultimate deliverance from the corruptible state. It is talking of glorification and the eternal state on the new earth. This reading confirms that the new earth that is to be inherited is totally free of corruption. It is a perfect state. Man must therefore be changed to be worthy to inhabit it. Every vestige of the old must be removed. The fact is, when that which is perfectis comethenthat which is in part shall be done away(1 Corinthians 13:12).

    Currently, our state is corrupt, as we are blighted by the ongoing existence of innate sin within us, but when we shall see Jesus we shall be like Him, “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known (1 Corinthians 13:12).


    At Christ’s return “we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge (or full discernment) of the Son of God, unto andra teleion (or) a man perfect, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.” This will be a day when every last evidence and remembrance of sin, rebellion and pride will be eliminated.

    The change to the earth will come by way of the fiery conflagration. Obviously, "flesh and blood" or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last trace of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer. Amils see the Lord's return as climactic and all-consummating. They believe Jesus is Coming to destroy the wicked and all wickedness and introduce a new pristine order of righteousness on the new earth for ever. Peter confirms,"we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."(2 Peter 3:13).


    The Premillennial millennium seems to be a re-run of this current age with all the bondage of corruption (including sin, death, decay, wickedness, rebellion) not only continuing but prospering in the Premillennial paradigm. They aspire to an evolving millennium that gradually and increasingly becomes glorious with the supposed continued progressive increase and growth through the government of Jesus. However, when we analysis their millennium it is seen to be the opposite. Rather than it being a progressively glorious age, it regressively degenerates into sin, death, rebellion and war. Rather than the wicked and wickedness being subjugated, the opposite occurs – they prosper and increase. The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as the sand of the sea against the camp of the saints. Scripture knows nothing of such a process. Scripture make no mention of, or allowance for, any imperfect semi-glorious/semi-corrupt transitional age in-between “this present time” or age and the eternal “age to come.” This seems to be in contradiction to many Scriptures.

    Paul
    With the understanding that Jesus said he will return after the tribulation, which group does he fit into?

    Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    With what he has declared he cannot fit in all, can he?

    Comment


    • #3
      FF, do you believe that the new earth is at the Coming of Christ the second time or 1000 + years later?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ShirleyFord View Post
        FF, do you believe that the new earth is at the Coming of Christ the second time or 1000 + years later?
        Since he only comes back once then that is when the new earth will come.

        Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

        Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

        Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

        So with that in mind, in which group does that place Jesus, if they happen after the tribulation as Jesus has said?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
          Since he only comes back once then that is when the new earth will come.

          Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

          Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

          Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

          So with that in mind, in which group does that place Jesus, if they happen after the tribulation as Jesus has said?
          I'm not following you, FF. You seem to be wanting to discuss pre-trib v post-trib. Am I correct?

          When discussing which earth Jesus comes back to, both pretrib/premil and post-trib/premil believe the same thing I would think.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ShirleyFord View Post
            I'm not following you, FF. You seem to be wanting to discuss pre-trib v post-trib. Am I correct?

            When discussing which earth Jesus comes back to, both pretrib/premil and post-trib/premil believe the same thing I would think.
            We are all associated with different groups depending on what we believe, if we therefore believe, as Jesus has said, that his return and gathering of the saints is after the tribulation, in which group does that put Jesus and those that believe as he has said?

            The new earth would have to be at his return, and that is when this present heaven and earth are destroyed.

            Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

            Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
              With the understanding that Jesus said he will return after the tribulation, which group does he fit into?

              Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
              Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
              Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

              With what he has declared he cannot fit in all, can he?
              I am not sure where you are going with this. My query was: Am I right? Amils and Premil seem to differ in their expectancy of the new earth?

              What are your thoughts?

              Paul
              "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

              http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

              WPM

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by wpm View Post
                My query was: Am I right? Amils and Premil seem to differ in their expectancy of the new earth?

                What are your thoughts?

                Paul
                No - I actually think that Amils and Premils have the a similar expectancy related to the new earth, where they differ is related to timing (2000 years v. 3000 years), process (finished at the Second Coming after centuries of Jesus' indirect leadership over the nations v. finished after the Second Coming and 1000 years of Jesus' direct leadership over the nations), and the involvement of Israel in that process.

                I would think that, if we all actually stopped going 'round and 'round, we would find that our expectation of the new earth itself at the completion or the fullness of the plans of God would be the same.
                The Rookie

                Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by the rookie View Post
                  No - I actually think that Amils and Premils have the a similar expectancy related to the new earth, where they differ is related to timing (2000 years v. 3000 years), process (finished at the Second Coming after centuries of Jesus' indirect leadership over the nations v. finished after the Second Coming and 1000 years of Jesus' direct leadership over the nations), and the involvement of Israel in that process.

                  I would think that, if we all actually stopped going 'round and 'round, we would find that our expectation of the new earth itself at the completion or the fullness of the plans of God would be the same.
                  When does the new earth arrive in your opinion?

                  Paul
                  "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                  http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                  WPM

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wpm View Post
                    When does the new earth arrive in your opinion?

                    Paul
                    It begins at the Second Coming and ends at the end of the 1000 years, IMO. It's a 1000 yr. process to renovate the earth and "make all things new" (Rev. 21:5).
                    The Rookie

                    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wpm View Post
                      Amils and Premils seem to be in agreement that the kingdom of God is eternal. They also seem to be in agreement that there is a dynamic continuity between the spiritual kingdom inaugurated before the cross and the final physical reality of the kingdom that is established at Christ’s coming. Both also see the progressive growth of the kingdom throughout the nations in this intra-Advent period.

                      Where Amils and Premils go their separate ways (major) is in their expectation of the new earth and the physical manifestation of the kingdom that Christ introduces at His Coming. The two hopes are miles apart. The Amillennialist believes that Christ destroys every vestige of corruption and consequence of the fall at His return. Romans 8:19-23 confirms,For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be (future tense) delivered from the bondage of corruption (death, sin and decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

                      Creation and the creature will see a final and complete deliverance from the current bondage of corruption. Paul locates this liberation for creation at the time when the saints experience "the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body." This conclusively proves that the glorification of the earth occurs simultaneously with the glorification of our bodies.

                      I Corinthians 15:50 - makes it explicitly clear,“flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”This passage is speaking of the period immediately following the Coming of Christ. The whole context is man's ultimate deliverance from the corruptible state. It is talking of glorification and the eternal state on the new earth. This reading confirms that the new earth that is to be inherited is totally free of corruption. It is a perfect state. Man must therefore be changed to be worthy to inhabit it. Every vestige of the old must be removed. The fact is, when that which is perfectis comethenthat which is in part shall be done away(1 Corinthians 13:12).

                      Currently, our state is corrupt, as we are blighted by the ongoing existence of innate sin within us, but when we shall see Jesus we shall be like Him, “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known (1 Corinthians 13:12).


                      At Christ’s return “we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge (or full discernment) of the Son of God, unto andra teleion (or) a man perfect, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.” This will be a day when every last evidence and remembrance of sin, rebellion and pride will be eliminated.

                      The change to the earth will come by way of the fiery conflagration. Obviously, "flesh and blood" or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last trace of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer. Amils see the Lord's return as climactic and all-consummating. They believe Jesus is Coming to destroy the wicked and all wickedness and introduce a new pristine order of righteousness on the new earth for ever. Peter confirms,"we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."(2 Peter 3:13).


                      The Premillennial millennium seems to be a re-run of this current age with all the bondage of corruption (including sin, death, decay, wickedness, rebellion) not only continuing but prospering in the Premillennial paradigm. They aspire to an evolving millennium that gradually and increasingly becomes glorious with the supposed continued progressive increase and growth through the government of Jesus. However, when we analysis their millennium it is seen to be the opposite. Rather than it being a progressively glorious age, it regressively degenerates into sin, death, rebellion and war. Rather than the wicked and wickedness being subjugated, the opposite occurs – they prosper and increase. The Premillennial millennium culminates in the greatest global uprising in history from the four corners of the earth as the sand of the sea against the camp of the saints. Scripture knows nothing of such a process. Scripture make no mention of, or allowance for, any imperfect semi-glorious/semi-corrupt transitional age in-between “this present time” or age and the eternal “age to come.” This seems to be in contradiction to many Scriptures.

                      Paul
                      I agree with you whole heartedly Paul. In addition to 2 Peter 3 which you cited, let me add

                      1Co 15:22-24 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. (23) But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming. (24) Then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.

                      2 Peter 3 demonstrates the refining or the purification of the Earth at Christ's return. 1 Cor 15 demonstrate the complete and final end of all rule, authority and power upon the Lord's return. Neither passage allows for an event that is as colossal as a thousand year reign of Christ on Earth. In spite of this, the pre-millennial belief is that sin, corruption and lawlessness will continue on for another 1,000 years after the 2nd coming, on an earth where the spiritual will co-exist with the natural and all will be subject to a glorified and all mighty Christ. Somehow I can't help but feel that pre-millennialism downplays the authority of a Christ who will rule with a rod of iron.
                      -----------------
                      Scott

                      Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.
                      Leave the rest to the Lord.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by the rookie View Post
                        It begins at the Second Coming and ends at the end of the 1000 years, IMO. It's a 1000 yr. process to renovate the earth and "make all things new" (Rev. 21:5).
                        Without the book of Revelation the Premil paradigm falls apart, yet this prophecy makes no reference to a new earth appearing at the commencement of a millennial kingdom. It seems, Revelation is selectively used by Premils as the cornerstone of their belief when it is convenient, when it isn't then other Scripture is used (and often misused) to allow it. Frankly, I struggle with your mode of interpretation.

                        The first John encounters the new earth is after the millennium. It is only then that he testifies: "the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." You have the old arrangement passing away 1,000 yrs+ before John states so. This is wrong. Moreover, you introduce the "new heaven and a new earth" at the beginning of your millennium, when John expressly makes no reference to it until after Satan's little season. I feel your reasoning and John's vision don't correlate.

                        Paul
                        "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                        http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                        WPM

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ScottJohnson View Post
                          I agree with you whole heartedly Paul. In addition to 2 Peter 3 which you cited, let me add

                          1Co 15:22-24 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. (23) But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming. (24) Then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.

                          2 Peter 3 demonstrates the refining or the purification of the Earth at Christ's return. 1 Cor 15 demonstrate the complete and final end of all rule, authority and power upon the Lord's return. Neither passage allows for an event that is as colossal as a thousand year reign of Christ on Earth. In spite of this, the pre-millennial belief is that sin, corruption and lawlessness will continue on for another 1,000 years after the 2nd coming, on an earth where the spiritual will co-exist with the natural and all will be subject to a glorified and all mighty Christ. Somehow I can't help but feel that pre-millennialism downplays the authority of a Christ who will rule with a rod of iron.
                          Scott

                          Good to see you around.

                          I couldn't agree with you more.

                          Paul
                          "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

                          http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

                          WPM

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wpm View Post
                            I am not sure where you are going with this. My query was: Am I right? Amils and Premil seem to differ in their expectancy of the new earth?

                            What are your thoughts?

                            Paul
                            What I am trying to find out is if there is a difference regading the expectancy of the new earth, do both groups not beleive in the one return of Jesus at the end of the world, which is when we expect the new earth? Also how does what we believe differ from that which is written?

                            1 Cor 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

                            2 Cor 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Firstfruits View Post
                              What I am trying to find out is if there is a difference regading the expectancy of the new earth, do both groups not beleive in the one return of Jesus at the end of the world, which is when we expect the new earth? Also how does what we believe differ from that which is written?

                              1 Cor 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

                              2 Cor 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
                              I believe that the difference would be that one group expects to see the new earth upon Christ's return while the other group feels that it will take another 1,000 years after Jesus returns to realize the new earth.
                              -----------------
                              Scott

                              Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.
                              Leave the rest to the Lord.

                              Comment

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