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  • As in the Days of Noah and Lot

    Hello everyone! I just wanted to ask you two questions related to the topic of Noah and Lot and Christ's return. Luke 17 speaks about Jesus' return being at a time much like the days of Noah and also Lot. In this reference, Jesus speaks of people just going about their daily business, unaware that judgment is coming. And we know that the world in Noah's day was so filled by wickedness that God sent the flood as judgment, and in Lot's day the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was so great that God destroyed those cities. In II Peter 2:5-9 these days are also referenced, and it is mentioned that Noah and his family were saved, and Lot was saved, because they were righteous.

    The first question is whether you feel as I do that Christ's return must be very close because of the tremendous rise of evil in the world within the span of our lifetimes. II Peter says that Lot was sick of the immorality around him, and he was distressed by the evil he saw and heard day after day. Sometimes I feel very much like Lot. My heart gets really weighed down sometimes because everywhere I look, my eyes and ears are assaulted by the sensual images that are increasingly prevalent on TV and in shopping mall window displays, the sexual jokes and crude language I hear on radio or TV, etc. Don't get me wrong--I really don't watch much TV because I refuse to listen to immorality, but it seems like even the commercials are bad enough now. Even the daily news seems to do its best to provide footage of things that give me a dirty feeling that I need to ask Jesus constantly to wash away for me. Our nation's attempts at drowning out all reference to God and Jesus are another example. There just seems to be so much immorality rising around us that I am wondering if the time is right for Jesus' return and the judment of the world.

    The second question is whether you feel as I do that the saving of Noah and Lot from the judgments is a picture of how Christians will be saved from the Tribulation. Now, I understand that some of us are pre-Tribbers and some are not. That's okay by me. I'm personally not quite sure where I stand on that issue yet, but I am trying to learn what the Bible has to say about it, and I'd love to get some insight about the Noah/Lot/Jesus' return issue.

    Thank you all for any insights you might provide.

  • #2
    Wombat, in my opinion, you are very smart to want want to know the signifigance of our Lord using Noah and Lot as examples of how things will be! I say why not just allow the Lord Jesus Christ himself answer? Among other scriptures, we can look at this in Luke. I've colored some main points in red, for clarity.

    Luke 17;20-30
    20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

    23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

    25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


    You see, the wicked were destroyed! Both Noah and Lot were still here, on earth, but escaped the wrath of God! They were here the whole time. But unharmed. Noah and Lot were not TAKEN anywhere.

    No second chances remained for the other people!
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by wombat View Post
      The first question is whether you feel as I do that Christ's return must be very close because of the tremendous rise of evil in the world within the span of our lifetimes. II Peter says that Lot was sick of the immorality around him, and he was distressed by the evil he saw and heard day after day. Sometimes I feel very much like Lot. My heart gets really weighed down sometimes because everywhere I look, my eyes and ears are assaulted by the sensual images that are increasingly prevalent on TV and in shopping mall window displays, the sexual jokes and crude language I hear on radio or TV, etc. Don't get me wrong--I really don't watch much TV because I refuse to listen to immorality, but it seems like even the commercials are bad enough now. Even the daily news seems to do its best to provide footage of things that give me a dirty feeling that I need to ask Jesus constantly to wash away for me. Our nation's attempts at drowning out all reference to God and Jesus are another example. There just seems to be so much immorality rising around us that I am wondering if the time is right for Jesus' return and the judment of the world.
      Hi Wombat, there's no doubt that evil has been escalating for quite some time now. I'm not so sure though if that alone is any indication that Christ's return is with in our grasp.

      Jesus questioned as to whether he would find faith on Earth at all at His return. Luke 18:8. Paul stated in 2 Thes 2:3 that day would not come unless first comes the falling away. So my theory for the moment would be that evil will continue to grow, but possibly because as more and more people fall away from the faith, there will be less and less people adhering to biblical principles.

      At this point nations such as Australia and the U.S. seem to contain a fairly strong Christian contingent. But throughout much of Europe we're beginning to see a great falling away from the faith.


      Originally posted by wombat View Post
      The second question is whether you feel as I do that the saving of Noah and Lot from the judgments is a picture of how Christians will be saved from the Tribulation. Now, I understand that some of us are pre-Tribbers and some are not. That's okay by me. I'm personally not quite sure where I stand on that issue yet, but I am trying to learn what the Bible has to say about it, and I'd love to get some insight about the Noah/Lot/Jesus' return issue.
      I don't feel that the Noah and Lot represent a picture of how people will be saved from a tribulation. I believe that Jesus referenced these two events to point out the finality of the judgment that will take place upon His return. It has nothing to do with some so called future great tribulation, it has to do with the impending judgment of all mankind on the last day. See Matt 13:37-43; 2 Pet 3:2-13.

      As I understand it, once Jesus returns, that's it, game over. Everyone on the face of the Earth will have had their opportunity and judgment will be passed based on how we responded to that opportunity.

      Anyway, that's my opinion. That and seven bucks will get you some kind of flavored coffee at starbucks.
      -----------------
      Scott

      Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.
      Leave the rest to the Lord.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hello

        Yes, I do believe that the Lord's coming will be during this generation.

        I also see that unbelievers will be going about their normal routines: marrying and giving in marriage, buying and selling. And since they are not aware of prophecy, the Day of the Lord's wrath will take them by surprise.

        But for believers, they won't be living a 'normal' life. They will be hiding and being persecuted by unbelievers and the antichrist and won't be able to buy or sell. And since they are aware of the times they are living in and know that the Lord's return is near, won't be taken by surprise.
        They will be ready and prepared to meet the Lord when He comes to rapture/remove them from the earth before He unleashes His wrath upon it.
        Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held it's ground.
        ********************************************
        MAY WE IN EVIL'S HOUR, TRUTH'S SWORD WITH BOLDNESS WIELD

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by TexasBeliever View Post
          Hello

          Yes, I do believe that the Lord's coming will be during this generation.

          I also see that unbelievers will be going about their normal routines: marrying and giving in marriage, buying and selling. And since they are not aware of prophecy, the Day of the Lord's wrath will take them by surprise.

          But for believers, they won't be living a 'normal' life. They will be hiding and being persecuted by unbelievers and the antichrist and won't be able to buy or sell. And since they are aware of the times they are living in and know that the Lord's return is near, won't be taken by surprise.
          They will be ready and prepared to meet the Lord when He comes to rapture/remove them from the earth before He unleashes His wrath upon it.
          I don't know where you get the idea that believers will be running and hiding, trying to escape the persections of unbelievers worshipping and following the antichrist/beastly world system.

          Don't sound much to me that the believers you describe would be very ready and prepared to meet the Lord when He comes. Where is their faith in Christ? They are filled with great fear running for their lives, hiding out with their every thought on antichrist and his people and somehow finding natural safety and a moment of peace and rest instead of on Jesus Christ and His absolute peace that passes all understanding and rest.


          Shirley

          Comment


          • #6
            In the context of the end of the world and Noah [2Pe 3:6], God tells the true believers the following:

            Originally posted by 2Pe 3:8
            But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
            In Noah's day, God told Noah that he would destroy the world in seven days:

            Originally posted by Gen 7:4
            For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
            How long ago was the flood? Somewhere around 7,000 ago? Someone smarter than me could answer that...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by wombat View Post
              The second question is whether you feel as I do that the saving of Noah and Lot from the judgments is a picture of how
              Christians will be saved from the Tribulation.

              The way I see it, Noah and Lot weren't saved from tribulation, they were saved from the wrath of God. Here's the way I see the day of the Lord. It will be a day of salvation and wrath combined. Just like in the days of Noah when the floods came.
              That was the wrath of God upon the wicked. Noah and all those on the ark, that was the salvation of God. Take note, these happened together, one group was saved, the other group was lost. Jesus said it will be like in the days of Noah when He returns. Since the above is one part of how it was like in the days of Noah, then it will be like this when Jesus returns. Instead of one group being saved by way of the ark, they will literally be saved by Christ Himself, and instead of the other group being destroyed by water, this time it will be by fire.


              1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
              14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
              15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
              16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
              17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
              18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
              1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
              2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
              3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
              4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
              5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
              6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
              7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
              8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
              9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
              10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.



              These verses are meant to be read as one thought. Paul never changed the subject in Ch 5 like some suggest. He is clearly talking about the day of the Lord here. Notice what he says in verse 9 of Ch 5. He's comforting those by telling them that when Christ returns to unleash His wrath on the wicked, those that are His at His coming are not appointed to His wrath, but will obtain salvation thru Christ. Verse 9, among others, clearly tells me that the day of the Lord will be both a day of salvation, and a day of wrath, just like it was when the floods came in Noah's day.

              I would like to stress another thought that I feel many overlook. Even tho Noah was safe in the ark, he still had to keep trusting God to keep him safe until it was over. Something to think about..

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by divaD View Post
                The way I see it, Noah and Lot weren't saved from tribulation, they were saved from the wrath of God. Here's the way I see the day of the Lord. It will be a day of salvation and wrath combined. Just like in the days of Noah when the floods came.

                That was the wrath of God upon the wicked. Noah and all those on the ark, that was the salvation of God. Take note, these happened together, one group was saved, the other group was lost. Jesus said it will be like in the days of Noah when He returns. Since the above is one part of how it was like in the days of Noah, then it will be like this when Jesus returns. Instead of one group being saved by way of the ark, they will literally be saved by Christ Himself, and instead of the other group being destroyed by water, this time it will be by fire.
                I agree that Noah was physically saved from God's wrath in the ark. But Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord 120 years before and not when he finished building the ark and entered into it.

                Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

                Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

                Noah had faith to believe God when He commanded him to build an ark and became heir of the righteousness.

                He also was a preacher of righteousness condemning the world

                2 Pet 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

                Sounds like Noah was saved by grace through faith looking ahead to the cross the same way that we are saved today looking back with the eye of faith to the cross.

                Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



                Shirley

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ShirleyFord View Post
                  I don't know where you get the idea that believers will be running and hiding, trying to escape the persections of unbelievers worshipping and following the antichrist/beastly world system.

                  Don't sound much to me that the believers you describe would be very ready and prepared to meet the Lord when He comes. Where is their faith in Christ? They are filled with great fear running for their lives, hiding out with their every thought on antichrist and his people and somehow finding natural safety and a moment of peace and rest instead of on Jesus Christ and His absolute peace that passes all understanding and rest.


                  Shirley
                  I was asked and I answered.
                  Rev 6 "How long will it be before You judge the earth and avenge our blood among the inhabitants of the earth? ....they were told to be patient a little while longer until the quota of their fellow servants and brothers to be slain as they had been was filled." Rev 13 "For 42 months the beast was allowed to wage war on the saints and overcome them."
                  Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held it's ground.
                  ********************************************
                  MAY WE IN EVIL'S HOUR, TRUTH'S SWORD WITH BOLDNESS WIELD

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TexasBeliever View Post
                    I was asked and I answered.
                    Rev 6 "How long will it be before You judge the earth and avenge our blood among the inhabitants of the earth? ....they were told to be patient a little while longer until the quota of their fellow servants and brothers to be slain as they had been was filled." Rev 13 "For 42 months the beast was allowed to wage war on the saints and overcome them."
                    That's fine Tex. And you have every right to your opinion.

                    But you seemed to be implying that those who were expecting to be raptured before the GT would not be ready for what lay ahead for them. And the GT would take them by surprise since they hadn't planned ahead since they had no plans to still be here during that time.

                    Then when you started talking about believers, who you seemed to be implying were post-trib, on the run, hiding out, trying to escape the wrath of the antichrist, it struck me that if you were describing post-trib believers, they wouldn't be any more prepared to face the GT than pretribbers were.

                    When we look closely at Rev. 13, we don't find the believers running for their lives, hiding out, trying to keep the beast from finding them. They refused to worship the devil, the first beast, the second beast and the image of the beast and they were killed.

                    But in all of that horrible tribulation of wrath, they they overcame the devil, the beast and all of the unsaved wicked.

                    Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

                    Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

                    Those you referenced in Rev 6 are physically dead but their soul/spirit is safely in heaven. Notice why they were killed:

                    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


                    Jesus said this in Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

                    One thing that strikes me about the believers in the NT. Nothing except physical death stopped them from spreading the gospel regardless of their persecutions and lack of even the necessities of life with the threat of being killed hanging over them every day of their lives.

                    Paul had it all before he met Jesus on the Damascus Rd.

                    Phil 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

                    6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

                    7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

                    8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,


                    Look at the things Paul suffered after he was saved:

                    1 Cor 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

                    12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

                    13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.


                    2 Cor 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

                    24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

                    25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

                    26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

                    27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.


                    Paul certainly knew in whom he believed. And he could speak confidently of his Lord's faithfulness when he said in Romans 8, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (vs 35-39)


                    (Excuse me while I take a praise break)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ShirleyFord View Post
                      That's fine Tex. And you have every right to your opinion.

                      But you seemed to be implying that those who were expecting to be raptured before the GT would not be ready for what lay ahead for them. And the GT would take them by surprise since they hadn't planned ahead since they had no plans to still be here during that time.

                      Then when you started talking about believers, who you seemed to be implying were post-trib, on the run, hiding out, trying to escape the wrath of the antichrist, it struck me that if you were describing post-trib believers, they wouldn't be any more prepared to face the GT than pretribbers were.

                      When we look closely at Rev. 13, we don't find the believers running for their lives, hiding out, trying to keep the beast from finding them. They refused to worship the devil, the first beast, the second beast and the image of the beast and they were killed.

                      But in all of that horrible tribulation of wrath, they they overcame the devil, the beast and all of the unsaved wicked.

                      Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

                      Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

                      Those you referenced in Rev 6 are physically dead but their soul/spirit is safely in heaven. Notice why they were killed:

                      Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


                      Jesus said this in Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

                      One thing that strikes me about the believers in the NT. Nothing except physical death stopped them from spreading the gospel regardless of their persecutions and lack of even the necessities of life with the threat of being killed hanging over them every day of their lives.

                      Paul had it all before he met Jesus on the Damascus Rd.

                      Phil 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

                      6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

                      7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

                      8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,


                      Look at the things Paul suffered after he was saved:

                      1 Cor 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

                      12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

                      13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.


                      2 Cor 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

                      24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

                      25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

                      26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

                      27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.


                      Paul certainly knew in whom he believed. And he could speak confidently of his Lord's faithfulness when he said in Romans 8, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (vs 35-39)


                      (Excuse me while I take a praise break)



                      ShirleyFord, I kind of feel TexasBeliever has somewhat of a legit point about the hiding out and such. If the trib were to last sev yrs, then how will those that are still alive at Christ's return still be alive, esp if they can't buy or sell, etc? The Bible also tells us that those that refuse to worship the beast and it's image will be killed. So how do we explain the ones that are still alive when Christ returns? Why weren't they killed? Could it be perhaps that they were hiding? I'm not saying that's the answer, but what else makes sense?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by divaD View Post
                        ShirleyFord, I kind of feel TexasBeliever has somewhat of a legit point about the hiding out and such. If the trib were to last sev yrs, then how will those that are still alive at Christ's return still be alive, esp if they can't buy or sell, etc? The Bible also tells us that those that refuse to worship the beast and it's image will be killed. So how do we explain the ones that are still alive when Christ returns? Why weren't they killed? Could it be perhaps that they were hiding? I'm not saying that's the answer, but what else makes sense?
                        DivaD, perhaps a good place to start would be for you to tell us where you find a seven year tribulation in scripture. Where is it in the Bible that says there is a 7 year tribulation?
                        My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

                        "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Diggindeeper View Post
                          DivaD, perhaps a good place to start would be for you to tell us where you find a seven year tribulation in scripture. Where is it in the Bible that says there is a 7 year tribulation?


                          Diggindeeper, if you read my post, I made no mention of seven years. I did say sev years, meaning several yrs. I can now see where I forgot to put the period after sev. I apologize if you took my abbreviation to mean seven instead of several. I specifically made a point to make it several years, since the Bible doesn't specify how long the trib actually is.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You are so right, diva!

                            But, then look at this.


                            According to tradition, all of the twelve apostles died as martyrs during the first century A.D. Only St. John, the writer of the Gospel with his name and the Book of Revelation died a natural death. It is believed he died near the year 100 A.D.
                            The possible causes of death of each of the Twelve Apostles:
                            • Andrew: Martyrdom by crucifixion (bound, not nailed, to a cross).
                            • Bartholomew (Often identified with Nathaniel in the New Testament): Martyrdom by being either 1. Beheaded, or 2. Flayed alive and crucified, head downward.
                            • James the Greater: Martyrdom by being beheaded or stabbed with a sword.
                            • James the Lesser: Martyrdom by being thrown from a pinnacle of the Temple at Jerusalem , then stoned and beaten with clubs.
                            • John: Died of old age.
                            • Jude (Often identified with Thaddeus in the New Testament): Martyrdom by being beaten to death with a club.
                            • Judas: Suicide.
                            • Matthew: Martyrdom by being burned, stoned, or beheaded.
                            • Peter: Martyrdom by crucifixion at Rome with his head downwards.
                            • Philip: Martyrdom.
                            • Simon: Martyrdom by crucifixion or being sawn in half.
                            • Thomas: Martyrdom by being stabbed with a spear.
                            And to this very day, Christians are killed, just because they are Christ's followers. How much worse tribualtion could there possibly be?

                            We could be alive and remain, until his (one) second (and last) coming.
                            My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

                            "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by divaD View Post
                              ShirleyFord, I kind of feel TexasBeliever has somewhat of a legit point about the hiding out and such. If the trib were to last sev yrs, then how will those that are still alive at Christ's return still be alive, esp if they can't buy or sell, etc? The Bible also tells us that those that refuse to worship the beast and it's image will be killed. So how do we explain the ones that are still alive when Christ returns? Why weren't they killed? Could it be perhaps that they were hiding? I'm not saying that's the answer, but what else makes sense?
                              Scripture makes sense when we accept it for what it literally says, I have finally learned. 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 says that some believers will be alive at the Coming of Christ. Yet Rev 13:15 says:

                              "...and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

                              With you Tex and others saying that believers will be on the run for their very lives, hiding out from the antichrist reminds me of when I was pretrib and the several different movies I saw in different Churches of those who were left behind to face the antichrist after the Rapture of the Church so they wouldn't be forced to take the motb.

                              While each of the movies had different titles, characters, actors and story lines, they all were basically the same. And the pastors used them as evangelistic tools to get put such fear in the unsaved by showing them what would happen to them if they missed the Rapture.

                              The people left behind were always running and screaming and sweating and dirty, their clothes full of holes and mostly rags, just trying to stay alive and away from antichrist and his wrath on them and his forcing his mark on them and they would be eternally lost spending eternity in the lake of fire. They were always looking for someone to turn to to help them. Always looking for someplace to hide. But they finally found that there was no one to turn to who would help them and no place to hide.

                              Even those who had plenty of money before and had plenty of food stored up and all kinds of beautiful vacation homes on beautiful lakes and beaches found out that none of these things could help them then. And neither could they depend on each other for help or even moral support. It soon became each family trying to take care of his own and no one else. And then each individual.

                              But nowhere in Revelation or anywhere else in the Bible do we find scenes like that. So I can't possibly agree that since 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 clearly proves that there will be believers left alive at Christ's Coming that they survived the antichrist by running and hiding and being prepared with stored up food and supplies to reconcile those Scriptures with Rev 13. It is simply not there. And I don't have liberty to add it.

                              The only explanation that I have from the Bible is that Jesus returns before all of the believers are killed and rescues them and destroys the beast and all of his followers.

                              I believe that we find this explanation in 2 Thess 1 and 2.

                              I believe the man of sin is the same as the beast in Rev 13. And we see what happens to him when Jesus returns.


                              Shirley



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