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we all have a portion of the holy ghost when we are saved,but you dont have it all,

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  • we all have a portion of the holy ghost when we are saved,but you dont have it all,

    Originally posted by LivingSacrafice
    You may beleive it but to agree with it you have to agree with everything,anyone can say they agree with the bible,you see we all have a portion of the holy ghost when we are saved,but you dont have it all,and to be the bride you have to have it all.
    Where is that written? You have the Holy Spirit or you don't as far as I'm concerned... someone please correct me with scripture if you think I'm wrong?

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    I think you are confusing the gifts of the Spirit with the Spirit... do some only have half a Spirit? I think not. This reminds me of the RCC ordination by laying on one hand or two... as if they would get half the anointing from only one hand.

    1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

    1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    Originally posted by LivingSacrafice
    And how can someone truly be filled and not agree in the word,let me say this,many say they have the holy ghost...
    Let me say that we can agree with the Word (the Spirit) and question a few scriptures. For instance I question 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and would probably argue that it would have been better to write if someone was not annointed with the Holy Spirit they should speak in the church.... another subject.

    Originally posted by LivingSacrafice
    And by the way being filled is the same as being indwelled with the holy spirit,for something to indwell in you you have to be filled with it,its the same thing.
    I certainly agree here! I just don't think there is a partial indwelling as you described... you got it or you don't. I also have a problem with people believing that they need any gift like healing or tongues as an important aspect of the Spirit, because just walking with the Spirit of the Lord is far greater than any gift.

    Michael

  • #2
    Originally posted by SoldierOfChrist
    I have an open mind here but the scripture you quote to support this certainly don't support what you say it does! I have to disagree that upon believing we are indwelt.

    Here are the scriptures you quote:

    2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    2 Corinthians 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

    2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

    Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    None of the above really tell us that they received the spirit because the believed. It just says after they believed they were sealed (baptized). These scriptures below show that they did already believe and had not received the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

    Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

    Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

    Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

    They were sealed by the baptism of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands, they already believed.

    Michael
    Look at those verses again
    Act 19:2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

    Besides, laying on of hands nor baptism for that matter is required for a person to believe or be indwelt by the Spirit.

    The verses I quoted made the statement " manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all" The speaking in tongues, a gift of the Spirit, was to "the profit of all" to show that it was truly Jesus building this new entity the Church. An outward sign, just like healing or any of the other gifts. However, a person can accept Christ, believe, be saved, in the quiet of their own home, not having anyone praying or laying on hands or them speaking in tongues, and be just as saved. Tongues are not required to prove the indwelling of the Spirit or salvation.

    Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
    And as already quoted about the Holy Spirit giving the gifts:
    11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

    Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people speaking in tongues, or any of the other gifts, but tongues is just that, a gift of the Spirit, where as the Spirit, is a gift from God to seal His own. And I would also believe that all who are saved, and indwelt with the Spirit receive one or more gifts, but receiving any of these gifts is for the benefit of the Church, and a witness, but are not proof of salvation. Lot of people out there doing a lot of things that appear to be signs and wonders, but they are false, the person doing them as no idea who Christ is.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by IamBill
      LivingSacrafice you may be just misreading what he is saying.

      He is not a downplaying the word(Bible) He is pointing out the extreme authority of
      the Word - (Jesus)


      And if anyone here implies that "the laying of the hands" is the requirement to receive the Holy Spirit, It simply is Not true. No Mans' Hands were there for me. Mans hands would have ignored me, would not have reached for me in the place that I was. Only One Hand was there to reach for me. It was the hand of the Word ...I new nothing of the word.

      Tongues - yes a sign, But I ask - THE sign ? ...seriously, when the Holy Spirit enters ones body, the question posed by this thread is not question.
      When you are truly filled with the holy spirit theres and utterance that comes,and you begin to speak in tongues.So thats probally the first sign of truly being filled.
      http://www.godtube.com/view_video.ph...3418003b47d7d5

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      • #4
        Originally posted by LivingSacrafice View Post
        When you are truly filled with the holy spirit theres and utterance that comes,and you begin to speak in tongues.So thats probally the first sign of truly being filled.
        Bummer, you're telling me Jesus only gave me half a dose then huh ?
        sort of ...short changed me on the promise ?




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        "Let no man deceive you"

        I also am "man" - this includes myself !

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        • #5
          Originally posted by IamBill View Post
          Bummer, you're telling me Jesus only gave me half a dose then huh ?
          sort of ...short changed me on the promise ?
          Certainly not! You are in Christ Jesus and indwelt with the Spirit whether you speak in tongues or not. The priority is walking in the Spirit and that comes with daily obedience and submission. If the Spirit gives you a gift, be it tongues or healing or prophecy or all of them they will be for the glorification of Christ and the edification of the Church Body. But you completely covered by Christ with nothing of Him lacking as far as what He has given you. What you need to do is continue growing and maturing, same thing all of us need to do!

          As far as how this applies to this thread, if we stick to scriptures, we will not believe the false ones or one when they come along claiming to be of Christ, we have scripture to check all things. And we have the Spirit within us to guide us, teach us, speak to us. Might I suggest doing a search of the New Testament for "Spirit", see what you get.


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          • #6
            Thank you quiet dove, and I know.


            just stunned






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            "Let no man deceive you"

            I also am "man" - this includes myself !

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            • #7
              Originally posted by IamBill View Post
              Thank you quiet dove, and I know.


              just stunned






              .
              No for one when your saved you a portion of it,being saved does not make you the bride of christ,When jesus comes back when the rapture happens hes not coming back for those that are saved but those that are filled with the real holy ghost,when your saved you have some of it thats why your able to stay saved because it corrects you and keeps you right.But if you had none of it how would you even be able to stay saved and try to recieve all of the holy spirit.
              http://www.godtube.com/view_video.ph...3418003b47d7d5

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              • #8
                Originally posted by LivingSacrafice View Post
                No for one when your saved you a portion of it,being saved does not make you the bride of christ,When jesus comes back when the rapture happens hes not coming back for those that are saved but those that are filled with the real holy ghost,when your saved you have some of it thats why your able to stay saved because it corrects you and keeps you right.But if you had none of it how would you even be able to stay saved and try to recieve all of the holy spirit.
                So you're saying I only got part of the Holy Spirit? Is it some percentage, like 30% of the HS? Or did I get the blue light special HS? What do I have to do to get the rest of the deal? Is there some "work" I have to do to get the rest of it? Do I have to upgrade to HS Version 2.0? I must have missed the Bible verses that point this out. Is it in the fine print somewhere? Can you point me to this scripture?

                Yes I am being facetious but yes the questions are serious.
                In Christ,

                -- Rev

                “To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.” – Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by LivingSacrafice View Post
                  --------
                  Ya know something LivingSacrafice ?

                  There are people who's lives literally hang from the thread you cut upon.
                  I'm sure you don't mean to do that.

                  perhaps you need to show support of your words.

                  being saved does not make you the bride of christ
                  FYI, Jesus could rightfully throw me in hell, Knowing him is more than I could have asked for.

                  I am becoming speechless.
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                  "Let no man deceive you"

                  I also am "man" - this includes myself !

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                  • #10
                    You know I really want to answer this but I don't know where to start? I don't have much time today.

                    LivingSacrafice you are proof a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous. You need to quote scripture to support your arguments. Please try and choose your words more carefully.

                    The greatest gift is the Holy Spirit. I am going to agree that not all believers have the Holy Spirit. Sorry guys I have been to many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe. Now some of them think they have it but they have no sign inwardly or outwardly.

                    The gifts of the Spirit are gifts and are usually for the benifit of the church and have little to do with walking with the Lord.

                    1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

                    1 Corinthians 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

                    Do all speak with an unknown tongue? It reads let him that does it does not say all.

                    1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

                    1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

                    So I have only sang with the Spirit in an unknown tongue and I have never spoke in tongues... do I have the partial Spirit. Does that mean those that only sing in tongues are not going to be saved because we don't have the full Spirit?

                    1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

                    1 Corinthians 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

                    1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

                    1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

                    1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

                    1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

                    It is the inward manifestation that is important as you have received the promise.

                    You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit. Right Bill? Many that are tought of God are separate from the others and the teaching they provide, instead they are lead by the Spirit and not man.

                    I think I already said that?

                    Michael

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LivingSacrafice
                      The holy spirit wrote the bible,this is how all these men in the bible wrote the bible through the holy spirits leading.The word is God,and the word became flesh which would be Jesus.So if someone doesnt agree with the word from Genesis to Revelations how can they have the holy spirit.Im not trying to prove you wrong,because I know theres things you say that are true,but when you recieve the holy spirit thats a gift,in my bible which is the holy bible the true word of God it says when the first christians were filled with the holy ghost they began to speak in tongues,so that shows that thats a sign of having the Holy Ghost.And also if a saved person didnt have any holy ghost in them how could they stay saved,theres no real saved person that could stay saved with out some of the holy ghost,because the holy ghost is there to correct us,now when recieve the holy ghost in full measure you begin to speak in tongues thats a sign of having the holy ghost.

                      Im not here to use any strategy or logic to get my point out,like I said theres much for me to learn but I know some stuff.

                      let me also say that the indwelling of the holy spirit is the same as being filled with the holy spirit,when you are filled it dwells in you.I added that because one of you posted something again about that.

                      Anyways much love but the truth must not be flipped,and if in anyway I ever flipp the scriptures INTENTIONALLY and cause anyone to fall from God may I not live any longer after that,and some might say thats a little crazy,but no I would never want to hurt and unbeliever or a believer by pouring out lies and causing them to fall from God,that would be so selfish.
                      LivingSacrafice, you have made some pretty strong statements here, but I cannot totally agree with all that you say. For one thing you said this,

                      "Im not trying to prove you wrong,because I know theres things you say that are true,but when you recieve the holy spirit thats a gift,in my bible which is the holy bible the true word of God it says when the first christians were filled with the holy ghost they began to speak in tongues,so that shows that thats a sign of having the Holy Ghost.And also if a saved person didnt have any holy ghost in them how could they stay saved,theres no real saved person that could stay saved with out some of the holy ghost,because the holy ghost is there to correct us,now when recieve the holy ghost in full measure you begin to speak in tongues thats a sign of having the holy ghost."

                      Nowhere in the Bible does it say that when we "recieve the holy ghost in full measure you begin to speak in tongues thats a sign of having the holy ghost."

                      I offer there are other signs that a person is filled with the Holy Ghost! For example, consider this--
                      Acts 4:31
                      31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

                      I know you probably come here from a denomination that teaches tongues are THE sign you are filled with the Holy Ghost. Yet, I offer the above scripture is ANOTHER SIGN.

                      Also, Jesus said this--
                      John 14:26
                      26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

                      The Holy Ghost teaches us!

                      John 15:26
                      26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

                      The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost (according to John 14:26!) is the Spirit of truth!

                      It is not the gift of tongues that teaches us, or causes us to testify of Him, or causes us to speak the word of God with boldness...but the Holy Ghost.


                      1 Corinthians 12:4-11
                      4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. (There are different kinds of gifts! Not just ONE.)

                      5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

                      6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. (It is the SAME God that works in all!)

                      7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (These different MANIFESTATIONS are listed in the scriptures below.)

                      8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

                      9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

                      10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

                      11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

                      Perhaps you have the gift of tongues, another has the gift of healing, another the gift of discerning of spirits....

                      So, lets be careful saying things like, "when you recieve the holy ghost in full measure you begin to speak in tongues" unless you can back it up with scripture.
                      My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

                      "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SoldierOfChrist View Post
                        I am going to agree that not all believers have the Holy Spirit.
                        So how do you reconcile that with this verse?

                        ...Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9b NKJV

                        Sorry guys I have been to many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe.
                        It's possible to assent to the truth without being a believer - Satan's theology is very sound!

                        Now some of them think they have it but they have no sign inwardly or outwardly.
                        First of all, please remember that the HS is the Spirit of GOD, so it borders on blasphemy to refer to Him as "it". Secondly, what sign inwardly or outwardly would they need to have, in your opinion?

                        It is the inward manifestation that is important as you have received the promise.
                        Are you saying you need to have the gift of tongues as evidence that you have the HS?

                        You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit.
                        So you believe that receiving the Spirit is a secondary experience for some Christians after their conversion?

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                        • #13
                          Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
                          I am going to agree that not all believers have the Holy Spirit.

                          Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post
                          So how do you reconcile that with this verse?
                          ...Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9b NKJV

                          Easy:

                          John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

                          Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

                          John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

                          John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

                          John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

                          John 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

                          John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

                          John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

                          Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
                          Sorry guys I have been to many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe.

                          Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post
                          It's possible to assent to the truth without being a believer - Satan's theology is very sound!
                          James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

                          Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post
                          First of all, please remember that the HS is the Spirit of GOD, so it borders on blasphemy to refer to Him as "it".
                          I agree I'm not that good of a writer and if you want to attack me for not speaking quite correctly even though I did speak correctly in every other sentence like the one below so be it... just you know I usually refer to HIM as the Father but that thought that may confuse some in this context.

                          Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
                          You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit. [/quote]

                          Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post
                          Secondly, what sign inwardly or outwardly would they need to have, in your opinion?
                          Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

                          Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
                          It is the inward manifestation that is important as you have received the promise.

                          Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post
                          Are you saying you need to have the gift of tongues as evidence that you have the HS?
                          Are you looking to twist my words here? Where did I say anyone needed any gift except the gift of the Holy Spirit? You are not reading what I said correctly at all because I said the complete opposite!

                          Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

                          Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
                          You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit.

                          Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post
                          So you believe that receiving the Spirit is a secondary experience for some Christians after their conversion?
                          Well here we go again... that is not waht I said. We were talking about believing and not having the Spirit, NOT conversion! There is a secondary experience for some Christians after believing! Conversion is that!

                          Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

                          Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

                          Mark 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

                          Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

                          Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

                          John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

                          John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

                          John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

                          John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

                          So tell me what is the difference between John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Do you get it NOW?

                          9Marksfan don't twist what I say but feel free to attack whatever I say... just not me please. If I hit a nerve maybe I'm sorry and maybe not! If I should provoke any believer to seek out the Spirit of the Lord it is good thing. I will tell you I am against those that teach the UNKNOWN GOD theory.

                          John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

                          John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

                          Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

                          Michael

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SoldierOfChrist View Post
                            Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
                            I am going to agree that not all believers have the Holy Spirit.



                            ...Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9b NKJV

                            Easy:

                            John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
                            "His own" means the Jews - we all know that most didn't believe.

                            Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
                            Again, Jews who didn't believe in Christ - NOT believers!

                            John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
                            Again, not believers.

                            John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
                            Ditto.

                            John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

                            John 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
                            Huh? Relevance?

                            John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

                            John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
                            He's addressing unbelievers - NONE of your verses helps your argument in ANY way at all!

                            Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
                            Sorry guys I have been to many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe.



                            James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
                            The point I was getting at with Satan having good theology! You can't say that demons are "believers" in the way that Christians are "believers" but don't have the HS! EVERYONE who truly believes has been born of God - and you will see the fruit in their lives.

                            I agree I'm not that good of a writer and if you want to attack me for not speaking quite correctly even though I did speak correctly in every other sentence like the one below so be it... just you know I usually refer to HIM as the Father but that thought that may confuse some in this context.

                            Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
                            You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit.
                            Fair point - "Him" should be used of Father, Son AND Spirit, as each Person is as much God as the Other!

                            Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
                            Amen!

                            Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
                            It is the inward manifestation that is important as you have received the promise.

                            Are you looking to twist my words here? Where did I say anyone needed any gift except the gift of the Holy Spirit? You are not reading what I said correctly at all because I said the complete opposite!

                            Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
                            You still haven't explained what you mean by the inward manifestation - the conviction that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God? Isn't that manifested by our faith and joy in Him?

                            Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
                            You either have the Holy Spirit or you don't, and you know when you have the Holy Spirit because you know the minute you recieved the Spirit.

                            Well here we go again... that is not waht I said. We were talking about believing and not having the Spirit, NOT conversion! There is a secondary experience for some Christians after believing! Conversion is that!
                            So you think a person can be a believing Christian and yet not be converted?!?! Man - THAT'S confusing! If waht you are saying is that a person can "believe" in an intellectual way (like Satan, accepting the facts of the gospel) but not be saved/converted, I agree - but such a person is NOT a Christian and does NOT have the Spirit of God indwelling them! ALL Christians are saved/converted/have believed with their heart (ie trusted Christ) and are indwelt by the HS - PERIOD!!!!!!!!

                            Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

                            Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

                            Mark 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

                            Mark 4:14 The sower soweth the word.

                            Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

                            John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

                            John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

                            John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

                            John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
                            Agree with all these verses but I don't see what you're getting at

                            So tell me what is the difference between John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
                            Hmm - no one has John's baptism now - so what's your point?

                            Do you get it NOW?
                            No, because I'm still utterly in the dark about your theology!

                            9Marksfan don't twist what I say but feel free to attack whatever I say... just not me please.
                            I'm sorry if you feel I'm twisting what you say or attacking you personally - I don't intend either - but I think you are greatly confused about what is called the ordo salutis ie the order of events in the experience of someone who is saved.

                            If I hit a nerve maybe I'm sorry and maybe not! If I should provoke any believer to seek out the Spirit of the Lord it is good thing. I will tell you I am against those that teach the UNKNOWN GOD theory.
                            And what's that when it's at home?

                            John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

                            John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
                            EXCELLENT verses - but they apply to ALL true believers!

                            Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

                            Michael
                            Jesus is writing to a church - the door is the door of the church building/house where they met - NOT the door of our hearts - GOD is the One who ALONE opens that (Acts 16:14, Ezek 36:26).

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post

                              Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
                              Sorry guys I have been to many a church and I can say that some have no Holy Spirit in any of the members and they still believe.

                              James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

                              The point I was getting at with Satan having good theology! You can't say that demons are "believers" in the way that Christians are "believers" but don't have the HS! EVERYONE who truly believes has been born of God - and you will see the fruit in their lives.).
                              The scripture reads "the devils also believe" you can twist and turn it. I think it proves my point and as to the other scripture only being written to the unbelievers, I disagree. Sorry I don't have time to comment on some of the rest right now but will later when I get some time.

                              Originally Posted by SoldierOfChrist
                              Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

                              Originally posted by 9Marksfan View Post
                              Jesus is writing to a church - the door is the door of the church building/house where they met - NOT the door of our hearts - GOD is the One who ALONE opens that (Acts 16:14, Ezek 36:26).
                              You are wrong! The door is the Spiritual door not the door of the church. He is addressing the men of church... "if any man hear my voice"... the spiritual man knows that what sup with him means.

                              John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

                              John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

                              Let me put it this way: A person may say I read the Bible and and believe and then calls themselves a witness. A witness to what?

                              I'm here to sharpen my knowledge and understanding and I must tell what I know and believe and you can chalenge it, and if I'm wrong I will learn something and so will others

                              More later.

                              Michael

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