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  • Hell, Lake of Fire and Second Death

    I am wondering concerning the connections between Hell, Lake of Fire and Second Death, the latter two only mentioned in Revelations.

    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    I interprete Second Death as the final destruction of the soul, people not written in the Book of Life are thrown in the Lake of Fire and die, else the word "death" is hard to understand.

    But then 4 verses earlier:

    Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Here it is said there is no death but torture forever.

    Then in the next chapers we read about the new Jerusalem coming from heaven and then we read:

    Revelation 20:15 For outside are dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers and murderers and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    The term hell or lake of fire is not mentioned here. Who are those?

    Regards,

    Ed

  • #2
    Originally posted by rebel777 View Post
    Revelation 20:15 For outside are dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers and murderers and idolaters, and
    whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    The term hell or lake of fire is not mentioned here. Who are those?


    You have to read this in the right perspective.


    Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
    7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
    8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
    9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
    10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.



    Notice what verse 12 states,
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    Read verse 15 from this perspective, and not from the perspective of after the white throne judgment. The perspective here, is, before Christ has even returned. Verse 14 tells us that those that do His commandments, they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Verse 15, these are the ones that will be cast into the lake of fire after being judged at the white throne judgment.
    Rev 21:8 also backs this up.

    Rev 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

    Since this had already occured in Ch 20, it is just a matter of reading it from the correct perspective.

    Comment


    • #3
      divaD, thank you.

      And what about 20:10 and 20:14 ?

      I am asking myself the question if an all-loving God is able to torment unbelievers forever for saying no to God with their God-given free will.

      Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

      Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

      The 2 texts leave room for speculation that not every unbeliever will be tortured forever but that the fire simply will destroy them, erased from history completely according their explicit wish for not wanting God. That only key-evil creatures responsible for the damage they created to God's creation (the fallen angels come to mind: 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6) will be tormented forever because of all the deception with as only goal to harm God.

      God has given people a free will to chose before or against Him. The reward for a positive choice is eternal life, a negative choice the destruction of the soul / personality, the second death or as the well known John 3:16 says: to perish. Perish in the Lake of Fire as final destination.

      For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

      I am not sure my reasoning is right, I see Matthew 5:29-30 as an obstacle, but then Revelation 20:14 tells us that hell and the Lake of Fire are 2 different things.

      Ed

      Comment


      • #4
        Rebel777

        I see it in the same light as you.

        my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

        If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

        Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree with the concept of annihilationism, that is the final destrution of the soul at the second death. I would say that once death, hades, the sea, and the beasts are thrown into the lake of fire, God never wants to see them again or for them to ever hurt people. God created them and at some point he will uncreate them and comfort those who were hurt by them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rebel777 View Post
            The 2 texts leave room for speculation that not every unbeliever will be tortured forever but that the fire simply will destroy
            them, erased from history completely according their explicit wish for not wanting God. That only key-evil creatures
            responsible for the damage they created to God's creation (the fallen angels come to mind: 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6) will be
            tormented forever because of all the deception with as only goal to harm God.


            rebel777, you won't get any argument from me in what you posted up above. I tried to make this point in another thread, but I tend to believe no one heard me. They saw what I wrote, they just didn't hear what I wrote.

            I'm convinced that even though all of these end up in the same place, these are entirely different judgments, in regards to Rev 20:10 and 20:14. I basically believe that satan was created immortal, man was not. Mortal can die, immortal can't. Notice what it states in Rev 20:14. It's called the second death. There is NO WAY this can apply to satan, because if it did, then that would mean that satan would have had to have died 1 time already, in order to die a second death.
            Anyone that has read the Bible, knows that satan has never died. Clearly to me, these are entirely 2 different judgments, Satan and his ilk are tormented forever, humans are destroyed forever.

            Of course you'll have some proclaim, how is there justice in that, if humans are destroyed and not horrendlessly tortured forever? I can ask the same question. How is there justice in humans being horrendlessly tortured forever? Where is the justice in that?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rebel777 View Post
              I am wondering concerning the connections between Hell, Lake of Fire and Second Death, the latter two only mentioned in Revelations.

              Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

              I interprete Second Death as the final destruction of the soul, people not written in the Book of Life are thrown in the Lake of Fire and die, else the word "death" is hard to understand.

              But then 4 verses earlier:

              Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

              Here it is said there is no death but torture forever.

              The dilemma you are facing in trying to sort these things out is due to the disorder of passages in The Book Of Revelation, ESPECIALLY of the last 3 Chapters, which are the worst out of sequence.

              Then in the next chapers we read about the new Jerusalem coming from heaven and then we read:

              Revelation 20:15 For outside are dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers and murderers and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

              The term hell or lake of fire is not mentioned here. Who are those?
              I think you mean Revelation 22:15, which is placed "within the so-called Millennial Kingdom" (or, "Kingdom Age"), which is a text that belongs earlier in the whole. Only the righteous can enter into the City that will be here for that Kingdom Age, thus, "the sorcerers", etc. are outside of it. Only the righteous will be able to enter and be in the City, but from what I have learned, I think there will be "evangelizing" outside the city.

              I have a thread on the Last three chapters of Revelation, but it is in the Controversial Issues Forum of this board and I am not sure if you have access to that yet, or have joined that group section - if you have access, you can click on the following link which will direct you to it on this board:

              Revelation: Last 3 Chapters

              If you are unable to access that thread yet, here is a sampling of summaries that is better sequenced (from the Late British Scholar, RHC (Robert Henry Charles)):

              CHAPTERS 20-22
              (The traditional order of the text in these three chapters is intolerably disordered and hopelessly unintelligible. The present editor (RHC) has restored, so far as he can, the order of the text as it left the hand of The Seer. See RHC Vol. II, 144-154. The restored order is given on pp. 153-154. On line 12 (p. 154) delete 6a, and on line 17 insert 5c before 6b-8. (Vol. II, ALP 449 of 516))

              SECTION F

              Chapter 20a (v.1-3)

              20:1-3. (Satan chained for a thousand years, and the nations are set free from his deceptions.)


              Chapter 21a and Chapter 22a

              21:9-22:2, 14-15, 17. (Vision of the Heavenly Jerusalem, which descends from Heaven and settles on the ruined site of the earthly Jerusalem. This Heavenly City is at once the seat of the Messianic Kingdom, the abode of the glorified martyrs, and the center of the evangelizing agencies of the surviving nations on the earth, during the millennial period. Though it is not stated, we must conclude that alike the glorified martyrs and the Heavenly Jerusalem are withdrawn from the earth before the final judgment.

              The tree of life (22:2, 14) appears to be for the new converts (22:2; cf. 11:15, 14:6, 7, and 15:3, 4) and not for the martyrs, since the martyrs are already clothed with their Heavenly bodies and are not subject to the second death. They had already eaten of it in the Paradise of God (2:7).

              As one of the seven angels of the Bowls showed Rome -- the capital of the kingdom of the Antichrist -- to The Seer 17:1, so he now shows him the Heavenly Jerusalem.)


              Chapter 20b (v4-10)

              *20:4-6.* (Vision of the glorified martyrs who reign with Christ for a thousand years.)

              *20:7-10.* (Close of the Millennial Kingdom and of its evangelizing activities. There upon follows Satan being loosed, march of Gog and Magog against the beloved city, their destruction by supernatural means, and the casting of Satan into the lake of fire. The Seer does, not say what became of the Heavenly Jerusalem, but its withdrawal from the earth before the final judgment is presupposed. Since “the beloved city” in 20:9 is the Heavenly Jerusalem, the saints referred to in the same verse must include the risen martyrs.)


              SECTION G

              Chapter 20c (v.11.13.12.14.15)

              *20:11, 13, 12, 14-15.* (Vision of the great throne and of Him that sat thereon, before whose presence the former heaven and the former earth forthwith vanish. Judgment of the dead. Death and hell cast into the lake of fire.)


              SECTION H

              Chapter 21b & 22b

              21:5a, 4d, 5b; 21:1-4abc.; and 22:3-5. (Declaration by God that the former things have passed away and that He creates all things new. Forthwith The Seer sees the new heaven and the new earth and the New[2] Jerusalem coming down, adorned as a bride for her husband. God tabernacles with men. No more grief or pain or tears or death. All the faithful are to reign with Christ for ever and ever (22:5), whereas in the Millennial Kingdom only the risen martyrs were to reign for a thousand years.)

              Footnote:
              [2] “New” = Even the Heavenly City of 21:10, which had been withdrawn from the earth before the Judgment with Christ and the saints, is renewed or displaced by one of a higher nature.



              SECTION I

              EPILOGUE AT THE CLOSE OF JOHN'S VISION.

              Chapter 21c

              21:5c, 6b-8. (God's testimony to John's book: His message to all men.)


              Chapter 22c

              22:6-7, 18a, 16, 13, 12, 10. (Here more than anywhere else in Chapters 20-22, we have the disjecta membra of the Poet-Seer. I (RHC) have restored the order of this section tentatively as above. As for 22:11, 18b-19, they are relegated to the footnotes as interpolations. See RHC Vol. II. 211-213, 217.)

              Blessings
              "A text without context is a pretext."

              Comment


              • #8
                I just pray and hope that annihilation is what happens.

                I can't imagine being happy in Heaven knowing that millions/billions are being tortured, nor can I envision a Just God allowing it. I know people say that you are cut off and separate and perfect and pure, but its hard for me to grasp.

                I still look at Ezekiel 37 and hope that everyone gets a second chance.

                There is so much in the Bible that we just don't know about, because there is support for both views and the afterlife is riddled with this. What happens after death and before Christ’s' return, or soul sleep, or instantly being with God, there is support for all.

                We can find support for annihilation and we can find support for eternal torture. Further, I think it is how we want it to be, that determines how we interpret the text. For instance, I have always interpreted "there will be gnashing of teeth" to mean during destruction and not eternal.
                When a Gentile asked Hillel to teach him the entire Torah while he stood on one foot, Hillel replied, "What you dislike don't do to others-this is the whole Torah, the rest is commentary. Go and learn."


                "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. "
                - Mark Twain

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rebel777 View Post
                  I am wondering concerning the connections between Hell, Lake of Fire and Second Death, the latter two only mentioned in Revelations.
                  The "lake of fire" is the "second death," as stated in Revelation 20.

                  Hell is the English translation of the Greek word hades, which is in turn the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word sheol.

                  In the strictest, most literal, context, "hell" is not the eternal fire. For a moment, let's disregard that the word "hell" exists.

                  In the Old Testament, the Hebrew term sheol is used, to refer to death and dying, to the grave, and occasionally to the "abode of the dead." There are particular passages in the OT that, when taken together, give the impression that both the righteous and wicked went to sheol. This, in my opinion, is likely, since Jesus stated that no one had gone up to heaven except for Himself. No one could enter heaven until Christ had atoned for their sins, so, it seems that both "good" and "bad" who died went to sheol. When comparing Daniel 12:1-2 and Revelation 20:11-15 together, it is easy to see that they speak of the same event. Both of them speak of (1) the book of life and (2) the dead being judged. Daniel 12:1-2 says that the dead would be raised, with the good being given eternal life and the bad being given eternal "shame and contempt." Revelation 20:11-15 depicts the dead from hades being brought before the throne of God and judged according to if the individuals are in the book of life. Those that are not in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. If the people of hades needed to be divided according to the book of life, it should be obvious that both "good" and "bad" people are in hades to be divided.

                  In the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT), the Greek term hades is used in place of the Hebrew word sheol. The Septuagint was around prior to the life of Jesus, so by the time the New Testament was written, the authors would know that the proper Greek equivalent of sheol would be hades. So, when we read the Gospels it is best to mentally translated each instance of hades as sheol.

                  In the gospels, Christ speaks of sheol/hades on occasion, but when He spoke of the eternal fire, He always made it distinct from sheol/hades. Sometimes Jesus referred to the eternal fire as gehenna, a Greek translation of a word that referred to the garbage dump that was continually burning. The Revelation speaks of a "lake of fire," and now and then says that it is eternal.

                  The best place in the Bible to find the distinction that sheol/hades is not the same thing as the eternal fire is in Revelation 20, in which it states that sheol/hades is thrown into the lake of fire. Sheol/hades/hell simply cannot be the eternal fire if it is thrown into the lake of fire (i.e. showing that sheol/hades/hell is not eternal if it comes to and end).

                  As for the annihilationist view, this is simply unBiblical.

                  The number one way to put down this view is with a single verse from Jesus Himself.

                  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

                  Just as the "life" is on-going and neverending, the "punishment" is on-going and neverending. If the "punishment" is the lake of fire, and a person is placed into it and they burn up and disappear from existence, then that punishment came to an end. It wasn't eternal.

                  "It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hellfire, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'"

                  Note: the word "hellfire" here is not a translation of hades, but of gehenna. Depending on your translation, your Bible may translate both hades and gehenna as "hell," which only leads to confusion. Anyway, here Jesus says that the "hellfire" (gehenna fire) is unquenchable. According to the annihilationist view, a person is burned in the lake of fire, and then they disappear from existence. Wouldn't that mean the fire was quenched, which Jesus stated the fire would never be?

                  It's called the second death. There is NO WAY this can apply to satan, because if it did, then that would mean that satan would have had to have died 1 time already, in order to die a second death.
                  John directly states that to be cast into the lake of fire is the "second death." John also directly states that Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Satan, ergo, takes part in the "second death."

                  Jesus stated that the eternal fire was created for "the devil and his angels," and He also stated that mankind would face the same fate if they remained in sin. Jesus never implied or suggested that Satan and the fallen angels would face eternal punishment while mankind would face temporal punishment followed by eternal non-existence. Again, Jesus directly stated that the mankind would face unquenchable fire if they continued in sin.

                  Spiritual death is not the end of a person's existence.

                  Physical death is not the end of a person's existence.

                  So why does the fact that the lake of fire is called the "second death" (whether it is the second compared to the spiritual death or the physical death) mean it is the end of a person's existence?

                  "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'"

                  Jesus directly states that the eternal fire is the punishment of Satan and the fallen angels. And the annihilationist would have you believe that this is, indeed, eternal punishment and eternal torment (Rev. 20:10) for Satan.

                  Yet here Jesus directly says that the sinful man is "cursed into the eternal fire." The very same eternal fire that Satan is eternally tormented in. Why would Jesus specifically say to unsaved mankind "You are condemned to the eternal fire" if it wasn't eternal for unsaved mankind?

                  Let's convert this into an analogy:

                  Satan and the angels are condemned to wear red coats for eternity. Then Jesus says to sinful mankind "You are to wear the same red coats that were made for Satan and the angels" and then sinful mankind is handed red t-shirts, that's not the same thing. Sure, they're still wearing something red, but a coat is far different from a t-shirt.

                  Now let's replace the proper terms:

                  Satan and the angels are condemned to burn in eternal fire for eternity. Then Jesus says to sinful mankind "You are to burn in the same eternal fire that was made for Satan and the angels" and then sinful mankind is burns in temporal fire, that's not the same thing. Sure, they're still burning in fire, but an eternal fire is far different from a temporal fire.

                  There is no reason to interpret "You are cursed to the eternal fire made for the devil and his angels" as "You are cursed to the eternal fire made for the devil and his angels, but only for a little while" unless the interpreter admits they're changing the plain and obvious meaning. If the fire is eternal for Satan and his angels, and the same "eternal fire" is threatened over sinful mankind, then it is eternal for sinful mankind.
                  To This Day

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rebel777 View Post
                    I am wondering concerning the connections between Hell, Lake of Fire and Second Death, the latter two only mentioned in Revelations.

                    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

                    I interprete Second Death as the final destruction of the soul, people not written in the Book of Life are thrown in the Lake of Fire and die, else the word "death" is hard to understand.

                    But then 4 verses earlier:

                    Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

                    Here it is said there is no death but torture forever.

                    Then in the next chapers we read about the new Jerusalem coming from heaven and then we read:

                    Revelation 20:15 For outside are dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers and murderers and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

                    The term hell or lake of fire is not mentioned here. Who are those?

                    Regards,

                    Ed
                    What is death in these passages? In this context, Death is eternal separation from the Father. These passages speak of spiritual death, not physical death.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MikeDArmi View Post
                      I just pray and hope that annihilation is what happens.

                      I can't imagine being happy in Heaven knowing that millions/billions are being tortured, nor can I envision a Just God allowing it. I know people say that you are cut off and separate and perfect and pure, but its hard for me to grasp.

                      I still look at Ezekiel 37 and hope that everyone gets a second chance.

                      There is so much in the Bible that we just don't know about, because there is support for both views and the afterlife is riddled with this. What happens after death and before Christ’s' return, or soul sleep, or instantly being with God, there is support for all.

                      We can find support for annihilation and we can find support for eternal torture. Further, I think it is how we want it to be, that determines how we interpret the text. For instance, I have always interpreted "there will be gnashing of teeth" to mean during destruction and not eternal.
                      I do not think you can find any support for "annihilation."
                      God is just. We all deserve Hell. Compared to Jesus Christ, none of us are worthy of any good thing. We all deserve hell. God, in His immense love for us sent us His Son so that we could escape what we deserve. God's love offered us provision for eternal life.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Reynolds357 View Post
                        What is death in these passages? In this context, Death is eternal separation from the Father. These passages speak of spiritual death, not physical death.
                        Is that what "Death" is or is that what you are reading "death" to be?
                        When a Gentile asked Hillel to teach him the entire Torah while he stood on one foot, Hillel replied, "What you dislike don't do to others-this is the whole Torah, the rest is commentary. Go and learn."


                        "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. "
                        - Mark Twain

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Reynolds357 View Post
                          I do not think you can find any support for "annihilation."
                          God is just. We all deserve Hell. Compared to Jesus Christ, none of us are worthy of any good thing. We all deserve hell. God, in His immense love for us sent us His Son so that we could escape what we deserve. God's love offered us provision for eternal life.
                          I've heard this often so I'm sure its true but can you enlighten us on the scripture that supports this.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mikebr View Post
                            I've heard this often so I'm sure its true but can you enlighten us on the scripture that supports this.
                            Which part do you want clarification on? I will be glad to clarify, but do you want clarification on eternal damnation, or on we are all worthy of damnation?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MikeDArmi View Post
                              Is that what "Death" is or is that what you are reading "death" to be?
                              Ephesians 2:1
                              Ephesians 2:5
                              Colossians 2:13

                              Isaiah 66:24 is concrete proof of the eternity of Hell.
                              The following scriptures also affirm that premise.
                              • "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).
                              • "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 7).
                              • These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

                              Comment

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