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End Time Revival or End Time Deception?

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  • ProjectPeter
    replied
    Let's close this one too. Timmy... go ahead and put this same post in that group and we can discuss that in that section. I have sent a group invite to everyone in this thread and the others going about this topic.

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  • timmyb
    replied
    Well Peter... I have one question for you... Where else can supernatural healing come from? it can't come from Satan... Who else saves souls? Yes, people are being saved at Lakeland as well... Todd gives a salvation message at every meeting and people have responded... i don't know the exact numbers.... Where in this revival are people being turned away from Jesus?

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  • daughter
    replied
    Originally posted by timmyb View Post
    Apostasy is a willfull turning from the truth in the saving power of Christ. It is to deny the work of Christ on the Cross and to deny his free gift of salvation...

    as far as the revival goes.... where in the Bible do demons heal people? Satan can show false signs and lying wonders... but healings and the casting out of demons? Jesus was very clear about demonic activity not working against itself.
    If someone is afflicted by a demon, that demon can choose to further afflict them by withdrawing for a season, so that you think you're cured, and then it can return. A remission is not the same thing as a healing.

    Well, that's one way of looking at it.

    I'm not saying that is what is happening here, but it could be, in any healing, unless you know it's the Spirit of God.

    And if it's the Spirit of God, then there should be no mistaking it.

    I should also point out, that I've seen a healing which was definitely from God. It only worked for a short season, six weeks, but that was long enough for the man to be saved before he died, and to witness to his family. My son had been Christian all of two days when he laid hands on the man in the hospital, and prayed for him.

    If this revival is from God, then I'd expect to see that sort of thing... believers going up to those in hospital, laying on hands, and praying for them.

    But we should read James, and see what God requires of us as individuals before we can have the Spirit of God move in us. The faithful prayer of a righteous man is effective... God knows if we are righteous, and if we are truly conforming our hearts and minds, giving our bodies as living sacrifices, and being conformed into the image of Christ.

    If so, then we can move in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    If not, then we're posturing, and our condemnation will be terrible.

    If the Holy Spirit moves He purifies where He goes, and scalds out our sin. If that is happening in this "revival", then it is of God.

    Funnily enough, before I was Christian, I had always thought revival was something to do with communities becoming Christian. I am surprised that it seems to refer only to a church. Am I missing something? When there were revivals in Ireland, Scotland or Wales, you'd have whole villages falling under the power of the Holy Spirit. Is this happening in this revival? Are whole neighbourhoods turning to Christ?

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  • My heart's Desire
    replied
    Originally posted by timmyb View Post
    Apostasy is a willfull turning from the truth in the saving power of Christ. It is to deny the work of Christ on the Cross and to deny his free gift of salvation...

    as far as the revival goes.... where in the Bible do demons heal people? Satan can show false signs and lying wonders... but healings and the casting out of demons? Jesus was very clear about demonic activity not working against itself.
    If you are refering to the Scriptures I gave, well that's why I gave them. I'm letting them speak for themselves. I'm not going to add to them except that in the end times, it seems that it will be deception by power, signs and wonders. I'm only saying it will probably be a trend that we may see more and more of as the time draws closer although it is specifically said to be done by the man of lawlessness at that time. Again, that could be a subject for a new thread, not this one.

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  • timmyb
    replied
    Apostasy is a willfull turning from the truth in the saving power of Christ. It is to deny the work of Christ on the Cross and to deny his free gift of salvation...

    as far as the revival goes.... where in the Bible do demons heal people? Satan can show false signs and lying wonders... but healings and the casting out of demons? Jesus was very clear about demonic activity not working against itself.

    Leave a comment:


  • amazzin
    replied
    Originally posted by Friend of Jesus View Post
    ....God is working in Florida.......... I'll just keep passionate about the revival in my church, ........
    Thank you and keep praying for lasting fruit that will produce a harvest in your church

    Leave a comment:


  • Friend of Jesus
    replied
    Ok, sorry I meant no offense- I'm just very passionate about the revival as I'm sure you would be in my situation.

    Whether Todd is ligitimate or not- God is working in Florida.

    I won't say anything for or against Todd, because I don't know him personally, nor have I been to the revival myself- I'll just keep passionate about the revival in my church, and leave this discussion to you guys. I just ask that you don't judge the entire revival by one man- the revival is from God, even if Todd isn't (although I believe he is- but that is simply opinion)

    God Bless

    Leave a comment:


  • ProjectPeter
    replied
    And on an official note... if you can't handle this discussion without bugging out then please... do get out of it. This can easily be set afire and I am not going to let the flame get much bigger than a low heat. The fire is flickering now and starting to get there. Knock it off or I will close the thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • ProjectPeter
    replied
    Okay guys... There is no way that you are going to be able to separate Todd Bentley from that Revival in Lakewood.

    1. This is how it is billed with the medium responsible for most folks seeing it.

    Originally posted by GodTV
    FLORIDA HEALING OUTPOURING LIVE ON GOD TV WITH TODD BENTLEY

    Now... Todd Bentley is a devout follower of Branham. You aren't going to hear a service or discussion by the others in this meeting without his name being brought up. And much of what Todd does today is just that... a bit of Brahnam... a bit of Kulman... a bit of Benny Hinn. Very little is his own style or even many of his dreams. There lies much of the problem that a lot of folks have and are going to have with Todd.


    Now add to that the fact that Todd does in fact put a HEAVY EMPHASIS on angels. Fact... there is often times more emphasis on angels than Christ Himself.

    Fact... Todd has many sermons that he has preached even before Florida and many of those sermons had a HEAVY EMPHASIS on angels in his visions.

    Fact... and you watch and tell me if I am wrong. If you see him do it then watch again for a couple of nights because you would see a fluke. Tood walks on stage without a Bible. Todd doesn't have a Bible at the pulpit either. Todd really doesn't quote the Bible much save something now and again such as "your sons and daughters will dream dreams.... " etc or some such verse to attempt to justify the "outpouring."

    All of this is not lies.

    Now... Friend of Jesus. I don't know your pastor. Amazzin may or may not... I'm not sure because he has more contacts in the UK with pastor's than I do. But this I can tell you... neither of us is saying stuff about Todd here that we aren't PERSONALLY knowledgeable of. Not by gossip... but by personally knowing the man.

    I have stated this many times... I don't want to chuck water on anyones fire. That is not my aim nor is it his. But folks who are quick to defend Todd and you don't know the man from Adam... best be careful. There are in fact folks that do know him personally and we didn't just wake up yesterday and decide we don't like him.

    Both Amazzin and I are Pentecostal and have been all our lives. We've seen revival... real and bogus. We've seen amazing miracles... amazing manifestations... amazing things done by the power of God. Neither of us would ever stand for anything else and will die doing so. Yet... we've seen an awful lot of bogus too. In the end... the fruit of Toronto and the fruit of Brownsville went a bit bad. Did other revivals start in other churches as a result of those meetings? Did we get any good at all out of any of those meetings? Sure we did. But with that... came an awful lot of bad.

    You are talking to two men in Amazzin and I who have and are pastor's in Pentecostal churches for quite a few years now. Many of the faces you have seen down in Lakeland are folks that we know both professionally (if you will) and personally. So you guys need to be slow to speak and listen. We are not dismissing what is happening in your church. God can do many good things even with a mess. He's done it many times... He won't stop until all of this nasty now and now is done and over with. But rest assured... it ain't all good what is happening down there and while I am trying very hard to be open to both sides of this issue... I cannot endorse this myself nor would I. Not right now and it is because of many of these such issues. Would I pray for change? Oh yes I would! Would I pray it turn all good? You bet I would, have, do and will continue to do as long as it is there and running. But as it stands right now... there is some stuff that yet needs dealt with. There are folks trying to do that... time will tell.

    And Timmy... the reason we aren't rejoicing right now is because in all honesty... not at all convinced that it is God working through Todd producing anything at all. That's just the honest truth and should I speak of rejoicing about what I have seen thus far... I would not be telling you the truth nor would Amazzin. That, neither of us is willing to do.

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  • My heart's Desire
    replied
    Actually, this revival is being talked about on many Christian message boards and on websites across the Web. There are both sides presented all over so it is not hard to find information and misinformation as well. I think the reason is that we, who believe that we are in or very near the end times, don't take things at face value anymore. Now, I'm saying this much in general and this does not particularily pertain to this Revival or to the one who leads it. Might need to be subject of a different thread in fact instead of in this one.

    We search the scripture and the backgrounds of what people believe. In many places, I know that many people even on this board believe there will be a great deception within the Church or just a deception period. No matter what our opinion of who is going to be deceived the general knowledge most of us have is that toward the end of time there will be deception. We call it falling away from the faith, apostasy etc etc.
    And...if one believes this scripture pertains to the end time, then we also cannot get past this scripture regarding the Day of the Lord:

    2 Thess. 2:8-10
    Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of Him mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
    9. that is , the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
    10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

    Might as well add verse 11.
    11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, NASB


    Quite a few of us believe the one who is showing signs and wonders in this verse is the antichrist and we don't believe he has been revealed but if this is going to happen then it has in a sense already begun. Even in verse 7 of this same chapter it says that the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. That was in Paul's time. If it was then so how much more now in this day and time?
    Not knowing how to end without someone getting the wrong idea, but looks like according to verse 9, signs and wonders can be done in less than a godly manner. I'm reminded of how the 2 magicians in the story of the Exodus were able to produce snakes just like the rods of Moses and Aaron's produced snakes.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not applying this to this revival yet I think today we should not take the supernatural lightly and my opinion is that many do. By lightly, I mean that we are bold enough to presume to know the source of everything that happens supernaturally.

    Leave a comment:


  • Friend of Jesus
    replied
    Originally posted by timmyb View Post
    he is not worshipping angels.... he is blatant in his affirmation that the revival is a work of God... I have NEVER heard Todd place any special emphasis of angels over the work of Christ... it's always in the name of Jesus that he heals... not in the name of some angel... when he sees an angel it's because he is seeing God work because the angel is always working for God for the sake of the elect...

    I think you are very unfair in your judgment of Todd and his ministry...

    Because you guys are judging the fruit of the revival before the fruit of it can really be made manifest... you guys by your own admission have said that the real fruit of this won't be made manifest until a few years have passed.... why not rejoice that God is moving and that he's working through a man named Todd Bentley? His past is debatable, his methods are debatable, but the collection of crutches, walkers and wheelchairs is the undeniable of the healing power of Christ and the benefits of the cross... you can tell me all day about Todd or Branham and the bad things about them and I probably won't have anything to say to respond... but right now, God is moving through this man and there is absolutely nothing you can say that it's not a work of God... feelings are one thing... but healings can only come from God...

    Joh 9:33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."

    and demons don't work against themselves... nor can they heal

    Thank God, there is some sense pushing back into this thread

    Leave a comment:


  • timmyb
    replied
    Originally posted by amazzin View Post
    Okay, so read what you just said again and tell me if we are not correct in our comments about Todd and his very public ministry?
    he is not worshipping angels.... he is blatant in his affirmation that the revival is a work of God... I have NEVER heard Todd place any special emphasis of angels over the work of Christ... it's always in the name of Jesus that he heals... not in the name of some angel... when he sees an angel it's because he is seeing God work because the angel is always working for God for the sake of the elect...

    I think you are very unfair in your judgment of Todd and his ministry...

    Because you guys are judging the fruit of the revival before the fruit of it can really be made manifest... you guys by your own admission have said that the real fruit of this won't be made manifest until a few years have passed.... why not rejoice that God is moving and that he's working through a man named Todd Bentley? His past is debatable, his methods are debatable, but the collection of crutches, walkers and wheelchairs is the undeniable of the healing power of Christ and the benefits of the cross... you can tell me all day about Todd or Branham and the bad things about them and I probably won't have anything to say to respond... but right now, God is moving through this man and there is absolutely nothing you can say that it's not a work of God... feelings are one thing... but healings can only come from God...

    Joh 9:33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."

    and demons don't work against themselves... nor can they heal

    Leave a comment:


  • amazzin
    replied
    Originally posted by timmyb View Post
    believe you me I know all about William Branham... and I know he preached heresy... but there is no denial of his ability as a faith healer.... he preached oneness and worship of angels... but don't judge Todd by another man's work... Branham was at one point a very godly man, he worked with Gordon Lindsey then he got arrogant and tried to be a teacher of the word contrary to his calling but the giftings and callings of God are irrevocable...

    Don't judge Todd by another person... judge Todd Bentley's fruit... I must admit I am leery of him quoting Branham because of the stain on the Charismatic movement because of him I don't hold that against Todd either.... don't bring William Branham into this he was a Godly man who taught errors late in his life... There is a story that when he died according to Gordon Lindsey's prophecy that as he was dying he healed his wife in Jesus name... he was a great faith healer who should have never become a teacher... but the principle of dividing the fruit from the nuts still applies...
    Okay, so read what you just said again and tell me if we are not correct in our comments about Todd and his very public ministry?

    Leave a comment:


  • timmyb
    replied
    Originally posted by amazzin View Post
    Here my thing Tim. And you need to believe me when I say I now this more than you. Todd worship of angels is a know thing. His idol / mentor worshipped angels. His name was William Branham. He quotes Branham often adn uses him as an example of a Godly man. Do your homework now and find out what Branham is all about and we can talk later.

    believe you me I know all about William Branham... and I know he preached heresy... but there is no denial of his ability as a faith healer.... he preached oneness and worship of angels... but don't judge Todd by another man's work... Branham was at one point a very godly man, he worked with Gordon Lindsey then he got arrogant and tried to be a teacher of the word contrary to his calling but the giftings and callings of God are irrevocable...

    Don't judge Todd by another person... judge Todd Bentley's fruit... I must admit I am leery of him quoting Branham because of the stain on the Charismatic movement because of him I don't hold that against Todd either.... don't bring William Branham into this he was a Godly man who taught errors late in his life... There is a story that when he died according to Gordon Lindsey's prophecy that as he was dying he healed his wife in Jesus name... he was a great faith healer who should have never become a teacher... but the principle of dividing the fruit from the nuts still applies...

    Leave a comment:


  • Friend of Jesus
    replied
    Originally posted by amazzin View Post
    Then stay out because it is both about the "revival" and "Todd".

    Fine then- keep pointing out the specks in Todd's eyes.

    Me- I'm going to pray for him (and for you too)

    Leave a comment:

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