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  • HisGrace,
    Show me one place where Jesus the Christ cast out a 'spirit of poverty' so that afterwards that person could flaunt his wealth and materialism to 'prove' he was a Christian and God was behind him. Jesus cast out 'spirits' to make 'known the Kingdom of God was at hand'... not to glorify wealth and materialistic attitudes.. This guy I spoke about in one of my prior posts back then was trying to 'cast an evil' spirit out of me when there was none there to begin with. How do I know that? Because prior to my conversion I had 'lots' of them and Jesus the Christ out of His mercy and Kindness 'delivered' me from them. I know what it was like to be 'possessed' by the devil before my conversion. This guy judged me by what I was wearing, my offerings, and what I drove... He judged me in the flesh.. and concluded that I had a 'devil' of poverty. I have some serious issues with what you 'teach' on here especially about God and finances. One can go back and look at one of your prior posts.. which is 'unbiblical' and from the most part in 'error'.

    What this man in this WOF church was doing was calling the Holy Ghost which indwelt my heart and was leading me an 'evil' spirit. Now according to my Bible that is blasphemey.... plain and simple.
    You need to go and read in the Book of James about the truth that if a peson comes into your assembly wearing nothing but rags and bad attire.. Are you to judge this person accordingly? I think not...

    There is nothing wrong with being prosperous or having things.. He gives us those things 'freely' thru His completed work at the Cross. The problem is when your equate your abundance with how much 'faith' you have or your 'lack' of it. This is not Scriptural and is heresy. Plain and simple!!!


    If you 'know the Truth'... it will set your FREE!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by HisGrace View Post
      In spite of a popular myth Jesus always had his needs provided for -

      John 13:26-27Jesus said, "The one to whom I give this crust of bread after I've dipped it." Then he dipped the crust and gave it to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot. As soon as the bread was in his hand, Satan entered him. "What you must do," said Jesus, "do. Do it and get it over with."

      28-29No one around the supper table knew why he said this to him. Some thought that since Judas was their treasurer, Jesus was telling him to buy what they needed for the Feast, or that he should give something to the poor
      Notice that it says that he should give something to the poor, showing that Jesus wasn't poor himself.

      The following is often taken out of its proper context. It is not saying that Jesus was naked or hungry, but is saying that if such is done to others, it is like they are doing it to him.
      His people are often poor. Was Jesus rich? Nothing in scripture suggest that he was. Only some picking around and looking and redefining passages make it so. Jesus did not have a place to lay his head at one point in his ministry, but he had all his needs met. We also know that he went for 40 days without food and water. But his needs were met. We do know that Jesus preached heartily against the love of money.

      We also know that he told the rich man to "give away all he had". And then to "come and follow me". Interesting. Leave your wealth and do as I do. Food for thought. Perhaps Jesus had already left his wealth and was an example to the rich man. Would God ever ask a man to do something he himself was unwilling to do?
      Matt 9:13
      13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
      NASU

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rebel777 View Post
        What people want, often is not the same as people need. The above promise is about what we need.Ed
        Need -noun: anything that is necessary but lacking. If so, we must be aware of what is necessary in our lives. I know I don't need a five-bedroom home, so if I am going to prayerfully follow the scriptures I wouldn't ask for a five-bedroom home. The scriptures say that God knows what we need, even before we ask, so He must be expecting us to ask.

        Originally posted by merjorg View Post
        He also said that poor people do not need a treasurer. He also said when the woman poored out spices, that Judas said that they should have sold the spices to give to the poor. Creflo said "if Jesus was poor, wouldn't he have qualified to be one of the poor people that Judas was talking about?" But, no, Judas' recommended that they give to the poor (and so obviously they weren't in that category). He also said they were casting lots for garments...which shows that they weren't wearing rags. Quoted another verse that said Jesus had a nice rob which was hemmed from top to bottom (something like that). Also said that the wise men brought him frankencence and gold. Creflo said, "He wasn't poor on that day!"
        Actually Jesus was wearing seemless gament, which would be considered high quality.

        Originally posted by Brothdr Mark
        His people are often poor. Was Jesus rich? Nothing in scripture suggest that he was. Only some picking around and looking and redefining passages make it so. Jesus did not have a place to lay his head at one point in his ministry, but he had all his needs met. We also know that he went for 40 days without food and water. But his needs were met. We do know that Jesus preached heartily against the love of money.
        Come on, it was his choice to go 40 days without food and water as a way of fasting. He didn't have a place to lay his head because he wasn't welcome in that town and had to go on to the next town. You say all of his needs were met, so he must have never gone without food or clothing. That's exactly the point I am trying to make. If he had a treasury, he didn't have to sponge off of other people or twitch his nose every time we needed something. He was a human and lived like a human.

        Someone on the thread said that Jesus would probably have sold the Bentley. If he were like many of the televangelists I have had heard about, he would have given it away.
        -
        -- sigpic-God’s Spirit is your power source—don’t let sin break the connection.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by HisGrace View Post
          Actually Jesus was wearing seemless gament, which would be considered high quality.
          Who put it on him?

          Come on, it was his choice to go 40 days without food and water as a way of fasting. He didn't have a place to lay his head because he wasn't welcome in that town and had to go on to the next town. You say all of his needs were met, so he must have never gone without food or clothing. That's exactly the point I am trying to make. If he had a treasury, he didn't have to sponge off of other people or twitch his nose every time we needed something. He was a human and lived like a human.

          Someone on the thread said that Jesus would probably have sold the Bentley. If he were like many of the televangelists I have had heard about, he would have given it away.
          So, do you think Jesus didn't do what he told th rich young ruler to do?
          Matt 9:13
          13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
          NASU

          Comment


          • all things are pure to those who are pure.

            and all things belong to god.
            so a christian owns nothing for all he has is gods
            and if he does not covet his money who are we to say he shouldnt have it.

            someones calling might to be rich so he can have stores saved up during harsh times. just so gods will can be done as he chooses.

            7Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.

            8And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
            9And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
            10He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
            11If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ARCHER42 View Post
              HisGrace,
              Show me one place where Jesus the Christ cast out a 'spirit of poverty' so that afterwards that person could flaunt his wealth and materialism to 'prove' he was a Christian and God was behind him.
              What this man in thisWOF church was doing was calling the Holy Ghost which indwelt my heart and was leading me an 'evil' spirit. Now according to my Bible that is blasphemey.... plain and simple.
              I didn't say that there is a spirit of poverty, just possibly, but the book of Proverbs has some pretty strong words to say about poverty.

              Why do you say this was a WOF church. Does it show in its title? Does the preacher call himself a WOF'er?
              -
              -- sigpic-God’s Spirit is your power source—don’t let sin break the connection.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by merjorg View Post
                First off, I want to say that I've been saved for 2 years and I still have a lot to learn. I'm very glad I found this forum recently. What I like is that I can post some of the questions that have accumulated in my head over the last 2 years and immediately have some input.

                My question in this thread can be a touchy one. It's about the so-called "prosperity" gospel. Many people would say Creflo Dollar preaches this style (himself included). I watch him every single morning while getting ready for work and his program has been a blessing.

                I have heard some arguments for and against the "prosperity" gospel. To put it briefly:

                Against: The gospel is not about us gaining material wealth, it's about us serving the Lord. He gives us what we need to survive and we shouldn't desire more than that. When we seek to gain material belongings, we are looking to satisfy our own wills.

                For: The whole King Solomon argument, the fact that Jesus came to give us life more abundantly, etc.

                I guess I just want to hear what some thoughts are on either side of this issue.

                I guess 2 of the most interesting things I've heard in favor of material prosperity are as follows:

                I believe it was Dr. Fred Price that said something like (paraphrasing), "Yes I drive a Bentley. I drive a Bentley! First of all, the Lord has led me to give away about 99 cars to those in need during my lifetime, so I don't believe He's mad that I have a Bentley. Secondly, I was GIVEN the Bentley by a friend who felt led to give me the Bentley."

                My church had a visiting pastor who has planted and oversees something like 100 churches in the Philippines and surrounding areas. He also keeps a residence in the United States. He literally works all over the world. He said something like, "In order to travel to these various parts of the world, money is necessary. In fact, it takes quite a lot of money for myself, my team, and my family to go keep these things going and to do the work the Lord has called us to do. So, my heart is not in the money. The money is just one of many tools, but it's a tool that is very necessary. In many cases, without money, certain things can't get done."

                Pros/cons of these statements? Other thoughts?
                There are a lot of abuses of the Prosperity Gospel. I am an avid believer in sewing and reaping. The more you sew, the more you reap. The law of Seed, time, and harvest is in operation in this dispensation. How can you argue with Mark 10:30? It does not get much more plain than that. "An hundredfold, here in this time." That does not really leave much gray area now does it?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                  His people are often poor. Was Jesus rich? Nothing in scripture suggest that he was. Only some picking around and looking and redefining passages make it so. Jesus did not have a place to lay his head at one point in his ministry, but he had all his needs met. We also know that he went for 40 days without food and water. But his needs were met. We do know that Jesus preached heartily against the love of money.

                  We also know that he told the rich man to "give away all he had". And then to "come and follow me". Interesting. Leave your wealth and do as I do. Food for thought. Perhaps Jesus had already left his wealth and was an example to the rich man. Would God ever ask a man to do something he himself was unwilling to do?
                  Let us honestly evaluate the ministry of Jesus. Jesus was a traveling evangelist. He traveled. He did not own a house because His ministry was a traveling ministry. Jesus was not poor. He had provision for His needs. He also had money. The only instance we see in scripture that Jesus neeed money was when Judas was not there with the money bag and they were asked for the temple tax. Jesus' ministry had money. How much, we do not know. However, we do know that he had a treasurer. To have a treasurer, there must be a treasury.

                  Why did Jesus tell the rich young ruler to give up his wealth and follow Him? Look at the entire story. The rich young ruler had just pointed out to Jesus that he kept the law. From a legalistic point, the ruler was a keeper of the law and found no fault in himself. Jesus merely pointed out to the rich young ruler that he was not keeping the law. He pointed out to the ruler that he had a god that he held more dear than the true God. The god of the ruler was money. The young ruler was in violatio of the first commandment. Money was above God in the life of the young man. Jesus did not want the man to be poor, He wanted the man to give up his god and give full love and submission to His Father.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Brother Mark View Post
                    Who put it on him?
                    Matthew 27: 27Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.

                    28And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

                    29And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

                    30And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.

                    31And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, AND PUT HIS OWN RAIMENT ON HIM, and led him away to crucify him. .......

                    35And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

                    So, do you think Jesus didn't do what he told th rich young ruler to uproot?
                    No, because the rich young ruler had pride and greed to be uprooted. Jesus could be trusted with money.
                    -
                    -- sigpic-God’s Spirit is your power source—don’t let sin break the connection.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by HisGrace View Post

                      Why do you say this was a WOF church. Does it show in its title? Does the preacher call himself a WOF'er?
                      -------------------------------------------------------------

                      HisGrace,
                      Yes it was a Word of Faith Church... He was a graduate of RHEMA Bible College and he 'worshiped' and I say that as an understatement.. Kenneth Hagin. One need only look at the 'doctrine' and teachings of this man to see where it leads to.

                      He teaches that Jesus the Christ was 'born again in Hell'. which is absolutely heresy.. Jesus the Christ is God.. He didn't need to be born again.. that would equate Him with having 'sinned'... He 'knew' NO SIN..

                      He teaches that Jesus the Christ died 'spiritually'... which is false.... Jesus the Christ died a physical death.. He was put to death in the flesh... His bodily functions stopped but in no way did His 'spirit' die... God can't die...spiritually.. He is God. All the 'fullness' of the Godhead dwelt in Jesus the Christ bodily....

                      There are alot of teachers out there that 'worship' Kenneth Hagin and believe what he 'teaches' to be truth..

                      In answering you question.. yes it was a WOF church.. this man's teachings were what he learned at his 'college'....

                      They are most definately 'doctrines of devils'......

                      I'm sorry I stand by my beliefs and this is the fact that God isnt against you being prosperous nor against you having things... He gives those 'freely' thru His completed Son's work at the tree. Equating your 'faith' or abundance of it or lack of it to the amount of matieral and monetary wealth is just NOT BIBLICAL... it is heresy..... plain and simple.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by HisGrace View Post
                        No, because the rich young ruler had pride and greed to be uprooted. Jesus could be trusted with money.
                        But he did. He left all of heaven, gave up everything to come here. And while here, he left a stable job and got to the point where he didn't have a place to lay his head. His needs were met. But he wasn't rich and he was telling the young ruler "come live like me". That, the rich man could not do.

                        What were Peter's words to him? Was Peter rich?


                        Mark 10:23-31

                        23 And Jesus, looking around, said to His disciples, "How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!" 24 And the disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 26 And they were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?" 27 Looking upon them, Jesus said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God." 28 Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You." 29 Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake, 30 but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 "But many who are first, will be last; and the last, first."
                        NASB

                        There is a reward in this life and in the life to come. Yet, the call is the same, leave all. Peter heeded the call. And left all. He even said "Silver and gold have I none but that which I have, I give thee. Rise up and walk." Peter, a disciple of God that walked with him every day for 3.5 years, had the power of God but had no money. I find that telling and very interesting. Having learned from Jesus, he had great power, but little wealth.
                        Matt 9:13
                        13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                        NASU

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Reynolds357 View Post
                          Let us honestly evaluate the ministry of Jesus. Jesus was a traveling evangelist. He traveled. He did not own a house because His ministry was a traveling ministry. Jesus was not poor. He had provision for His needs. He also had money. The only instance we see in scripture that Jesus neeed money was when Judas was not there with the money bag and they were asked for the temple tax. Jesus' ministry had money. How much, we do not know. However, we do know that he had a treasurer. To have a treasurer, there must be a treasury.

                          Why did Jesus tell the rich young ruler to give up his wealth and follow Him? Look at the entire story. The rich young ruler had just pointed out to Jesus that he kept the law. From a legalistic point, the ruler was a keeper of the law and found no fault in himself. Jesus merely pointed out to the rich young ruler that he was not keeping the law. He pointed out to the ruler that he had a god that he held more dear than the true God. The god of the ruler was money. The young ruler was in violatio of the first commandment. Money was above God in the life of the young man. Jesus did not want the man to be poor, He wanted the man to give up his god and give full love and submission to His Father.
                          I don't have too much trouble with what you are saying about the ruler. But Jesus didn't casually tell him to forsake all his wealth. It was said to show him his greed. But read on, Peter had forsaken all his wealth and Jesus comforted him. Peter remained so poor that he had to tell someone "silver and gold have I none" but Peter had power to go on and say "That which I have, I give. Rise up and walk."

                          I have no issues with people being rich. Those that have followed my writings on this board will tell you that. But the teachings that all should rich are ones I have issue with. I would rather be like Peter and have power than be like the rich man and have none.
                          Matt 9:13
                          13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                          NASU

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ARCHER42 View Post
                            HisGrace,
                            Show me one place where Jesus the Christ cast out a 'spirit of poverty' so that afterwards that person could flaunt his wealth and materialism to 'prove' he was a Christian and God was behind him.
                            The story of the woman and the oil shows how the poverty bondage can be broken. God never allows it to happen to flaunt our wealth, but does it in a way that he alone gets credit.

                            2 Kings 4
                            Elisha Helps a Poor Widow
                            1 One day the widow of a member of the group of prophets came to Elisha and cried out, “My husband who served you is dead, and you know how he feared the Lord. But now a creditor has come, threatening to take my two sons as slaves.”

                            2 “What can I do to help you?” Elisha asked. “Tell me, what do you have in the house?” “Nothing at all, except a flask of olive oil,” she replied. 3 And Elisha said, “Borrow as many empty jars as you can from your friends and neighbors. 4 Then go into your house with your sons and shut the door behind you. Pour olive oil from your flask into the jars, setting each one aside when it is filled.”

                            5 So she did as she was told. Her sons kept bringing jars to her, and she filled one after another. 6 Soon every container was full to the brim! “Bring me another jar,” she said to one of her sons. “There aren’t any more!” he told her. And then the olive oil stopped flowing.

                            7 When she told the man of God what had happened, he said to her, “Now sell the olive oil and pay your debts, and you and your sons can live on what is left over.”
                            -
                            -- sigpic-God’s Spirit is your power source—don’t let sin break the connection.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by HisGrace View Post
                              The story of the woman and the oil shows how the poverty bondage can be broken. God never allows it to happen to flaunt our wealth, but does it in a way that he alone gets credit.

                              2 Kings 4
                              Elisha Helps a Poor Widow
                              1 One day the widow of a member of the group of prophets came to Elisha and cried out, “My husband who served you is dead, and you know how he feared the Lord. But now a creditor has come, threatening to take my two sons as slaves.”

                              2 “What can I do to help you?” Elisha asked. “Tell me, what do you have in the house?” “Nothing at all, except a flask of olive oil,” she replied. 3 And Elisha said, “Borrow as many empty jars as you can from your friends and neighbors. 4 Then go into your house with your sons and shut the door behind you. Pour olive oil from your flask into the jars, setting each one aside when it is filled.”

                              5 So she did as she was told. Her sons kept bringing jars to her, and she filled one after another. 6 Soon every container was full to the brim! “Bring me another jar,” she said to one of her sons. “There aren’t any more!” he told her. And then the olive oil stopped flowing.

                              7 When she told the man of God what had happened, he said to her, “Now sell the olive oil and pay your debts, and you and your sons can live on what is left over.”
                              He also provided the jubilee year. God even provided Lazarus, the beggar with his daily bread. But we cannot ignore Hebrews 11 and those folks that lived in caves and holes which scripture says "the world was not worthy" of them. The prosperity movement needs balance in it's teachings.
                              Matt 9:13
                              13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
                              NASU

                              Comment


                              • God never allows it to happen to flaunt our wealth, but does it in a way that he alone gets credit.
                                -----------------------------------------------------------------------

                                I agree He never allows us to flaunt our wealth.. But what do you say to those who say if you are 'poor' or 'lacking'.. you have no faith.. these are the same people who equate their monetary wealth and materialistic gain to their faith.... Do they flaunt it? Yes they do.. its very obvious... but you said God wouldn't allow us to do that... I agree .... not in a prideful attitude... He gets the Credit and Its His sacrafice that provided that.. Jesus the Christ left Heaven.. He left everything.. Did He flaunt His wealth when He was here? He never had 'enormous' wealth or an overabundance of 'things'.. those that were necessary for life. He 'left all' so that He could complete His mission... the reason He was 'sent'.. for salvation.

                                If you follow these prosperity teachers who go over the line.. here is what it sounds like:

                                I got lots... I got 'faith'.. you got 'little'... you aint got faith..

                                If God doesnt allow us to flaunt our wealth, which I agree .. then why do these people flaunt it and equate it to how much faith they have? I wonder what 'god' they are really following.

                                The real 'root of the problem here is 'sin'... and its the sin of covetousness... ie 'greed'.. Its a condition in 'their' heart...They make 'merchandise' of the flock, hinder the 'growth' of new believers, and teach out of 'greed' or 'covetousness'. The Bible says that this will be very prevalent in the end times. It's here...

                                The 'fruit' of this type of teaching and doctrine are very clear to see.

                                He that hath ears let him hear.

                                Your CALLED to be CONTENT.. in all situations.

                                Comment

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