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  • Please Help Possibly the biggest Challange to Christiainty

    Hi I m a Theology Student currently at University studying in particular Christianity.
    When I came to University I was, what I consider agnostic I would challenge llightly Christianity from science mainly. Through my degree course however it has become so clear Christianity is not correct. For the first time in my life I can say 99.99 percent sure it isn't true.

    This isn't something I pleased about in the slightest.

    Please read my arugment and tell me how there is possibly an explanation to this I would say its the biggest challenge to Christianity I know of :
    I will make this easy for all types of people to read.

    Very briefly Christianity emerged from the "hellenistic" part of history. Basically a time people rejected old Gods like Zeus and believed in magic/miracle/souls/new science theories. Also new religions emerged:

    One religion used and very much a big part of the society Jesus and his followers would have lived in was the Religion of Isis and her Son Horus
    This is one of the key points:
    This religion was invented my Pharaohs in Egypt and is well documented. The Pharaohs, in simple terms, invented this myth saying the Pharaoh was linked to Horus and the mother Isis. This was so the myth would enforce the power of the Pharaoh and make him have more standing in his power.

    This myth was adapted by the "hellenistic period" again the society the Bible was written. As a main religion they got rid of the Pharaoh aspect and simply adapted very slightly. This religion and worshiped both Horus and Isis.

    About Horus
    Born of a Virgin
    Only Son of God
    Born of a stable/or cave
    3 wise men
    a Special star linked to him
    Baptized in river, Baptist died soon after
    12 Disciples
    Performed Miracles
    Tempted by Devil
    Died on cross next to two thief's
    In a tomb
    Resurrected


    Now if I hadn't said Horus at the top you would have all believed this to be about Jesus.
    The story of Horus was around 1000+ years before Jesus'. It is clear the gospel writers, either invented Jesus totally, or what I think is more likely simple took a "magician"/popular man of the time and turned him into the centre of their new cult. This cult copied a common myth to make it more popular to new converts. They could relate to it better and more likely to follow.
    Also within the book of Horus
    I am Horus who stepeth onward through eternity...Eternity and everlastingness is my name."
    Bible
    Book Of John "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever."

    My argument is clear. Jesus and the whole central point to Christianity is a myth that just evolved over time. The problem is not many people know about this it isn't common knowledge. This takes a way Jesus' message and uniqueness. Christianity is worshiping a traceable invention of Pharaohs, it is a myth.

    I find many agnostics try to argue from science and argue from the Bible itself. But this is the argument that counts as the others are too debatable. Of course Christianity evolved and had other aspects that it was based on. The gospel writers did write with Jewish and Early Church ideas that were unique. But the point is while they wrote about their own ideas within the gospel they are simply using a myth to start the cult so their ideas would be listened to. Not to mention the fact they also wrote 70 odd years after Jesus died with sources simply based on word of mouth.

    This points to a cult based on myth that simply wanted more followers quickly for many reasons I don't have time to go into.
    This undermines the whole of Christianity in my view. There are also many more examples of Gospel quotes being matched to the book of Horus.


    OK to finish I admit I m not against Christianity. I guess I would like to have a faith of something.
    But sadly my view of Christianity and religion in general is it is simply past on folk tale and myth that has other factors combined to enforce its moral code and enhance its social standing. From teaching to salvation and Jesus' life it is all copied and not unique.
    Please don't be afraid to respond. If someone could answer me this I would love to be a Christian I just can't see an answer. While websites exist on this subject the best way to understand it is to read the book of Horus yourself.
    Thanks very much for your time.

    Sorry for the poor Gramma ect, I rushed this

  • #2
    yah only if you dig deeper into the other religions and christianity, you will find that only christianity can be proven, while the others, can be EASILY disproven.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

    Comment


    • #3
      Please please please I know its a long post

      Please read it , the poster above didnt,

      I m "disproving" Christianity my digging deeper ----------please read again you didnt answer my question at all.

      thanks again

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by cheekycritter View Post
        Hi I m a Theology Student currently at University studying in particular Christianity.....

        OK to finish I admit I m not against Christianity. I guess I would like to have a faith of something.
        But sadly my view of Christianity and religion in general is it is simply past on folk tale and myth that has other factors combined to enforce its moral code and enhance its social standing. From teaching to salvation and Jesus' life it is all copied and not unique.
        Please don't be afraid to respond. If someone could answer me this I would love to be a Christian I just can't see an answer. While websites exist on this subject the best way to understand it is to read the book of Horus yourself.
        ...
        Hello Critter, and welcome to the board. I hope that in some way we can help you to gain a better view of this issue.

        I remember a time when I looked at similar "problems" that compared Jesus with this or that mythological figure, usually to the detriment of Jesus. Then I realized that Jesus has an enemy who will stop at nothing to devalue the truth about Him. I stopped reading the mythology, and focused on looking at Jesus. So I'm not going to be the one who is able to refute all the points you make. I did note however, that much of what you wrote has been debunked. I clipped the following from a Wikipedia article.

        The comparisons between Jesus & Horus are completely false, it's just an internet myth. --TotesBoats 04:15, 25 August 2007 (UTC) ....

        First off, I am not a Christian. I did some research and pretty much figured out that this and the other claims of the similarity to Jesus are more than myths, most of them are out right lies or trying to deceive or mislead intentionally. Like Mythra was born from a rock, this was called a virgin birth by Zeitgeist but it never said what it was; Mythra was just listed as having a virgin birth rather than saying how he was born. Other claims like Attis being resurrected was misleading, Attis came back to life as a tree. I did a whole paper on this in class and found out it's a bunch of lies. We should start a page on it I will have things back up what I say.
        Since you are in a university studying mythology, have you tried asking one of your professors about this question?

        If you are interested in knowing the truth about Jesus and Christian faith, the answers are not in myths etc., but in the true story and the 2000 years of evidence that Jesus is still in the business of changing lives.

        I am a witness to the power of Jesus to change lives - He changed mine. Horus never did anything for me.
        Blessings,

        Road Warrior


        Proverbs 4:23
        23 Guard your heart above all else,
        for it determines the course of your life.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by cheekycritter View Post
          Hi I m a Theology Student currently at University studying in particular Christianity.
          When I came to University I was, what I consider agnostic I would challenge llightly Christianity from science mainly. Through my degree course however it has become so clear Christianity is not correct. For the first time in my life I can say 99.99 percent sure it isn't true.

          This isn't something I pleased about in the slightest.

          Please read my arugment and tell me how there is possibly an explanation to this I would say its the biggest challenge to Christianity I know of :
          I will make this easy for all types of people to read.

          Very briefly Christianity emerged from the "hellenistic" part of history. Basically a time people rejected old Gods like Zeus and believed in magic/miracle/souls/new science theories. Also new religions emerged:

          One religion used and very much a big part of the society Jesus and his followers would have lived in was the Religion of Isis and her Son Horus
          This is one of the key points:
          This religion was invented my Pharaohs in Egypt and is well documented. The Pharaohs, in simple terms, invented this myth saying the Pharaoh was linked to Horus and the mother Isis. This was so the myth would enforce the power of the Pharaoh and make him have more standing in his power.

          This myth was adapted by the "hellenistic period" again the society the Bible was written. As a main religion they got rid of the Pharaoh aspect and simply adapted very slightly. This religion and worshiped both Horus and Isis.

          About Horus
          Born of a Virgin
          Only Son of God
          Born of a stable/or cave
          3 wise men
          a Special star linked to him
          Baptized in river, Baptist died soon after
          12 Disciples
          Performed Miracles
          Tempted by Devil
          Died on cross next to two thief's
          In a tomb
          Resurrected


          Now if I hadn't said Horus at the top you would have all believed this to be about Jesus.
          The story of Horus was around 1000+ years before Jesus'. It is clear the gospel writers, either invented Jesus totally, or what I think is more likely simple took a "magician"/popular man of the time and turned him into the centre of their new cult. This cult copied a common myth to make it more popular to new converts. They could relate to it better and more likely to follow.
          Also within the book of Horus
          I am Horus who stepeth onward through eternity...Eternity and everlastingness is my name."
          Bible
          Book Of John "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever."

          My argument is clear. Jesus and the whole central point to Christianity is a myth that just evolved over time. The problem is not many people know about this it isn't common knowledge. This takes a way Jesus' message and uniqueness. Christianity is worshiping a traceable invention of Pharaohs, it is a myth.

          I find many agnostics try to argue from science and argue from the Bible itself. But this is the argument that counts as the others are too debatable. Of course Christianity evolved and had other aspects that it was based on. The gospel writers did write with Jewish and Early Church ideas that were unique. But the point is while they wrote about their own ideas within the gospel they are simply using a myth to start the cult so their ideas would be listened to. Not to mention the fact they also wrote 70 odd years after Jesus died with sources simply based on word of mouth.

          This points to a cult based on myth that simply wanted more followers quickly for many reasons I don't have time to go into.
          This undermines the whole of Christianity in my view. There are also many more examples of Gospel quotes being matched to the book of Horus.


          OK to finish I admit I m not against Christianity. I guess I would like to have a faith of something.
          But sadly my view of Christianity and religion in general is it is simply past on folk tale and myth that has other factors combined to enforce its moral code and enhance its social standing. From teaching to salvation and Jesus' life it is all copied and not unique.
          Please don't be afraid to respond. If someone could answer me this I would love to be a Christian I just can't see an answer. While websites exist on this subject the best way to understand it is to read the book of Horus yourself.
          Thanks very much for your time.

          Sorry for the poor Gramma ect, I rushed this
          cheekycritter...this isn't a new challenge to our faith at all...its been around for a long time..the same claims you make..in fact its so common I made a video about it using information from Christianthinktank..with his permission...be sure to check out the links to the right of the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcTu6WnQzlA

          Its not the greatest video in the world...I made it for information purposes..not entertainment purposes.

          My son when he was in third grade I think brought home a book from the library about these Egyptian gods and I read some of it to explain to him how these gods were different from our God...I saw NOTHING similar in any of their life stories. Please notice the many, many books Glens refences on his site in relation to this topic. He isn't going by books done by Christians who voice their opinions...but true studies on these gods.
          Not to mention the fact they also wrote 70 odd years after Jesus died with sources simply based on word of mouth.
          This is also untrue..the earliest writings were only 30 years after His death and done by eye witnesses!

          http://www.carm.org/questions/written_after.htm

          http://www.carm.org/questions/trustbible.htm
          Can we trust the New Testament as a historical document?


          God bless
          "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

          Comment


          • #6
            Good luck on your venture cheekycritter and I hope you get good grades but I hope especially that you discover truth in your search of myths.
            Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.
            C. S. Lewis

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi thanks for the reply

              I m studying Theology which is basically Christianity broken down into history, old / new testament study/ psychology of religion and Christianity and science

              Ok I admit my knowledge of Horus was fueled by the internet. Although it started within my course texts. However for this particular myth the course books I found only talked about resurrection and virgin birth being connected with Jesus and Horus. This is because we don't study myth in huge detail it is simply an aspect we consider when studying the gospel writers sources.

              But I didn't just go on Google and searched internet sources. I search extracts from books and articles from various publications. I also looked at texts talking about sources writers that simply argue that this myth was used as a source and don't argue against Christianity.

              Im certainly not so foolish to believe all I read. However this one person you quote is wrong to say it is simply a internet myth. Aspects might be exaggerated. For my course I have read much on Rudolf Bultmann a key thinker who, while not directly saying the name Horus, does say many aspects of what Christ are simply myths.
              I m thinking of ordering the actual works of Horus then I can read for myself the truth and be more well informed.

              However I know from my course lecturers that this Myth about Horus from Egypt was somehow, to what extent is debatable, based on the figure of Jesus. This to me raises questions.

              Secondly, you mention the Jesus of 2000 years ago. Leaving the myth aside you can't know the real Jesus. He is a construct of the early Church writers based on very loose oral sayings. There are people that "follow him" you said he changed your life. Well to me what he actually was, was simply a man that was made and fitted in the early cults key ideas. Evidence for this is in his miracle and work in his life they tie into the Old Testament/myth/popular ideas/or common miracle that other magicians claimed to practices aswell. For example the water into wine, the calming of the storm.
              I can also aruge that that Jesus has effected your life for psychological reasons and his simply part of white middle class life. But thats a different area I dont want to get into simply because this isnt my main question. But it links to the fact i don't belive you can really know the historical Jesus. Simply beacause he probably didn't lead such life the gospel writers wrote about.

              My lecturers sadly never responded to my email for some reason. Now my term has ended I cant ask him till later this year.

              Thanks again

              Comment


              • #8
                Moonglow,

                30-70 years after , but most belive that it was later rather than earlier.

                Secondly the myths are not similar in the acutal lives. It is more key concepts that were adapted.

                If Horus is true or not. There are so many other myths that certainly influenced Christian writers when writting about Jesus. His central message and key parts of his nature are so very questionable because they are re-hashes of other myths. Not just the Horus myth.
                How people can have such blind faith when it this clear trend of folk tales can be traced in their faith?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hopefully you'll include the bible, cover to cover, in your readings. I would think you'd look at both sides fairly.

                  The christian does'nt view Christ as simply an historical figure but as the living Son of God Who reveals Himself to the believer.

                  Joh 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
                  Joh 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
                  Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
                  Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.
                  C. S. Lewis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi cheekycritter!
                    Welcome to Bibleforums!
                    It's great to have you here!!

                    Thanks also for your vulnerable and honest post, and your questions.

                    I was raised in a non-believing household; and my dad, the biggest moral and intellectual influence in my life, whom I still adore, was a convinced atheist. I was specially good at Science and Math -- and got degrees in them -- but was almost equally interested in history and especially philosophy and religion.

                    I've been interested in religions all my life, and started reading Buddhism when I was in my early teens, I think, and went to college in a time of enormous intellectual and ideological ferment in what was probably the center of religious and spiritual upheaval at the time, the East Bay (Berkeley and environs) and I heard -- and considered -- all these and more. Some of my close friends and housemates became Tibetan Buddhists, others Sufis or followers of an Indian Guru, and so on.

                    In the process of thinking things through in an openminded way I came first to a tentative belief in Christianity, and then, after many rounds of further questioning, at around age 26 I became thoroughly convinced. Nothing I've seen in the 30 years since has even begun to shake my confidence in the inherent intellectual credibility -- the fundamental epistemic warrant -- of Christian truth.

                    Thus I really welcome your inquiries.

                    I don't have time to give a full answer just now, but let me sketch the beginnings of a plausibility argument which will suggest to you why I don't find the facts you adduce (which I'll take as stipulated here, for now) particularly troublesome for Christian belief.

                    Even in the brief form in which I present it here, though, the answer will be rather long. Sorry about that. (My friends here all say: Scruff, your posts are way too long! )

                    Responding to your arguments

                    1. The basic form of your argument is that many of the features of Christ's story (as given by Christianity) were anticipated by the myth of Horus some thousand years earlier. This, you think, suggests that Christianity was just a copy of a previous myth. There are two reasons why I don't find this a particularly compelling argument, just on its own terms.

                    1.1 The coinciding of the myth of Horus and the life of Christ does not show that the latter was a copy of the former. There are many other possible patterns and explanations.

                    Let's suppose for a sec that there is a God, a Creator God who is involved with his Creation, and that the things that he does in history are not arbitrary acts (though they may include things He freely elects and might not have chosen to do) but rather conform to the way that He has set the universe up (for His good purposes.) Then we would expect the fundamental patterns of His action to be mirrored in the structure of nature. This is in fact the case, if (I say IF) God is, as it might happen, as Christianity teaches him to be: that is, for instance, the cycle of death and resurrection is in fact mirrored in the pattern of the death of crops in the winter, and their return into new life in the Spring. This pattern of death and the return of life is something which is common material which emerges in a number of religions, and indeed folk myths and songs, throughout the world.

                    Thus, if there is a structure to the fabric of the universe which reflects the purposes of a creator God we might expect two things. We might expect that when God decisively acts, it would be in accord with the fundamental nature of things as He has set it up; and we might expect that the fundamental structure of things as He has set it up, to be reflected in in myths and songs and folk-tales which are commonly told.

                    Then if there were a decisive and (in particular) miraculous set of events in which God intervened in history, I would find it surprising if that had not been anticipated by previous myths of various sorts. The kinds of anticipations which occur in myth -- not just Horus, but Ceres and Persephone, Balder the beautiful, and other such myths and legends -- are anticipations which might well arise from the structure of nature and of human imagination, because both nature and the human heart have been framed by God with his decisive miraculous intervention -- in this case the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ in mind.

                    Of course, one would be even more inclined to expect such anticipations if God (or, perhaps some other power) moved in people's hearts and lives to push them subtly in the direction of anticipating His all-important climactic act.

                    Let's think of a possible example. Suppose there was a righteous man, the wisest and humblest of men, who was proclaimed by a divine forerunner to be the special representative of truth on earth. Let's suppose that this man, as he taught, made other people -- representatives of the moral and religious establishment -- more and more angry, as he taught. Though he did nothing wrong, and was, in fact, building on and interpreting the traditions of his own culture, he was falsely accused and tried in an improper trial, and then condemned to death. Though he had the power to escape death, he chose to remain and face death, for in this way, he thought, the law and what is right would be fulfilled in him. After his death, his teaching took on new power, and became one of the central foundations of all human thought (at least in the West) for the next 2000 years. Though he himself left no written record, his main disciple wrote powerful works, through which the master's teachings were spread -- although some later felt that the disciple had actually invented most of the teaching, and that the master was in fact quite different in his views (as some allege concerning St. Paul, and his views of who Jesus was).

                    (Of course, it'd be hard to maintain that the life of Jesus was both based on the life of Socrates, and that myth of Horus -- though doubtless a clever person could craft such a theory if he wanted to.)

                    In fact, such an occurrence would naturally be taken -- if it occurred before the life of Jesus -- as a remarkable anticipation of that life.

                    Of course you will realize that I am speaking of Socrates (whom we know mainly through the works of Plato). Starting with the second century apologists (defenders of the Christian faith such as Justin and others) Christians were struck by the parallels between Socrates and Jesus. These continue to haunt people down to this day, although the last major work that I'm aware of that centered on these similarities was the Socratic Memorabilia of Hammann, a contemporary (and friend) of Kant's, in which Hammann tried to present the gospel to Kant and other friends in a form they might be able to assimilate.

                    Other Christian writers viewed Jesus as fulfilling the prophecies -- or oracular prophecy-like utterances -- that Virgil penned in his Ecklogues.

                    If in fact there were proleptic, perhaps prophetic, anticipations of Jesus' life -- whether in the OT (the Tanach, or Old Testament, the Hebrew Scriptures), in Egyptian and Greek myths, in Roman poets, or in the dramatic events of wise saintly living figures such as Socrates -- this does not settle the question of why these repetitions occur. One can imagine many theories.

                    Your theory seems to be that the story of Jesus as found in the NT was crafted to fit the myth of Horus. Another possibility is that both are independently derived myths which find deep origins in archetypes in the human psyche (in the manner of the psychological theories of C. G. Jung). Another is that God actually did the things the NT (New Testament, Greek Christian Scriptures) said he did, in the life of Jesus, and that these were anticipated by other myths, either (a) because they are encoded into the patterns of nature and the human mind, or (b) because God helped these other cultures to make some kind of guess at the truth, to prepare them for the gospel, or (c) because a malign influence tried to anticipate and distort the truth by creating a myth as a counterfeit ahead of time, or (d) for all these reasons at once, or (e) for other reasons.

                    Apparantly you have just tumbled across arguments of this sort. Similar arguments were made around the turn of the century by Frazier in the Golden Bough, and by later believers in the importance of myth, such Joseph Campbell The Hero with A Thousand Faces, and other such works, and so on.

                    Christians have known about these arguments and findings for almost a hundred years. Doesn't bother us at all. Apparently you've just tumbled across it. Don't let it throw you! The general discussion of the role of myth, and its importance in human affairs, and that it did in fact anticipate the story of Christ, was developed by C.S. Lewis, in the years immediately before and after he came to believe in God and then in Christ. All these things were well known to him, of course: he was a classical scholar of astounding breadth and prowess. His friend Tolkien, also a Christian, and others of their circle of Christian intellectuals worked with these ideas throughout the middle years of the twentieth century -- and that's where I first encountered the thinking on all this.

                    So, in summary, I don't find the replication, or duplication, of patterns of Christ's life (as believed by Christians, or as recounted in the New Testament) to be evidence that with any clear (unambiguous) implications as to the truth of the New Testament stories. This kind of co-inciding can be understood in a wide variety of ways, as I've tried to show.

                    1.2 The explanation you give does not explain lots of other phenomena, which require explanation if your account of how the Christian story arose is to be plausible.

                    There are lots of explanations which are offered as to where the Christian religion came from, other than that which is offered by Christianity. [intent] Christians, of course, believe that Jesus was the unique and eternal Son of God (though also entirely a human being) and that just as He said (in the NT, that is) He got His doctrine from the Father, that is from God, and spoke with Divine authority because He himself was God (God the Son). Also, of course, Jesus plainly read the Scriptures (the OT, the Tanach) and knew these extremely well, and built His teaching around them [/indent]As over-against this, people suggest that (a) Jesus went to Egypt and got from them the wisdom of the Egyptians, or (b) that Jesus went to India, and learned the teachings of India and brought them back, or (c) that what Jesus taught was something entirely different, and the whole Christian religion was cooked up by St. Paul, or (d) that it had other mythological foundations, or (e) that the real teachings of Jesus survive in hidden form, known to the person who advances this theory and his occult teachers (or perhaps in Sufism, a form of mystical Islam) and that Christianity is a misunderstanding by dumb disciples, who passed on their clueless misperceptions, or (f) that the real truth was found in so-called gnostic writings like the gospel of Thomas, which give us the true teaching which was suppressed by misogynists and power-hungry bishops, or (g) that what we have in Christianity is a garbled version of Buddhism (mahayana, or hinayana, or some other original version of what Guatama (the Buddha) taught, and on and on. Many parallels are made between elements of Buddhism, for instance, and Christianity, and the life of Jesus is also alleged to have similarities which show it was copied from the life of Buddha (as traditionally received).

                    The problem with these explanations -- as with yours about Horus -- is that they do not explain what happened after the (alleged) resurrection of Jesus and His (alleged) ascension. The myth of Horus had been around (on your showing) for a thousand years. Not much happened. It didn't spread across Africa, or the middle east, or the Persian, Greek, or Roman Empires. It didn't have great power in transforming people's lives. It just sat there.

                    But the Christian religion has been dynamic from the beginning. People here on the board are here because they have found "the power of Christ" (as they experienced it) to be real -- and it changed their lives. Despite rather severe persecution, the Gospel spread across the Roman Empire, transforming lives there also. Ancient non-Christian writers marvelled that ordinary Christians from the lower classes lived "like Philosophers" -- that is bravely, chastely, honestly, humbly. What philosophical teaching of the most exalted kind was supposed to do for the upper classes (but rarely accomplished) -- namely, subduing the passions and living in accord with reason -- did in fact happen even with uneducated tradespeople who became Christians. People were killed for their faith, yet blessed their persecutors, and went bravely to their deaths.

                    The Christian religion has great power throughout the world. In China, in 1949, there were less than 1 million Christians. This was the year that Mao Tse-tung and the Communists took over, and they immediately suppressed religion, and Christianity in particular. Yet when the worst of the persecution was over (it still continues, in reduced form), and people could start to get information about what was going on, even fairly conservative estimates were that the Christian faith had spread throughout China -- even into remote areas -- and that there were some 50 million Protestant Christians by 2000. Similarly, when Africa achieved independence around 1960, there were relatively few Christians -- maybe 10% of the population. But by 2000 the vast majority -- maybe 75% -- of sub-Saharan Africa was at least nominally Christian.

                    So whether in the ancient world, or later in Europe, in Africa and China today, or in the lives of people on this board (many of whom were once convinced agnostics or anti-Christians) the teachings of Christianity -- and/or the power of God working -- has changed lives powerfully. It's evident for instance that the Apostles -- the original spreaders of Christianity -- died for their faith, and that many people in the early Roman empire died (often were tortured to death) for their faith. What gave them the strength -- or even the obsessive delusion, if that's what you wish to suppose -- to do that?

                    The explanation that the teachings of Christianity were got by Jesus in Egypt or India, or made up by St. Paul, or that the (Christian account of) the life of Jesus was just a copy of the Horus myth, or based on Buddhist legends and so on -- quite apart from the lack of concrete evidence for these hypotheses -- does not explain where the transformative power of Christianity came from -- where that power in people's lives came from in the ancient world, or indeed where it comes from today. That is: if, as you say, Christianity was a rescript of the Horus myth, what was added to that which made it so powerful that in a couple of hundred years it had taken over the Roman empire, while the Horus myth itself did not seem to have any particular power to change lives and mobilize followers?

                    1. Recap: Ive given you two basic types of rejoinder to the argument that you seem to find so compelling. Your idea is that (stipulated) similarities between the Horus legend and the Christian account of Jesus's life make it clear that the latter was copied from the former.

                    I argued -- negatively (that is, against the supposed compelling force of the facts you posit in supporting your doubts about Christianity) -- (1.1) that the similarities don't prove too much, even assuming them to be fully genuine, because one might have expected to find some such similarities if Christianity was, in fact, the revelation of the God who created nature and loves all people. One might expect to find various anticipations and echos of the truth richocheting around the world and its thoughts for many possible reasons, if Christ was, indeed, the maker and ruler of the worlds and the author of Creation.

                    I also argued -- positively (that is, pointing out things which render the argument inadequate, failing to account for the main facts of Christian history, whatever its merits on its own terms, because it fails to explain things that require explanation) -- (1.2) that any account of the origins of Christianity which attributes them to something other than the religious and moral force of Jesus and his teachings and of God at work through Him and through the body of his followers, has to offer some kind of alternative explanation as to why these teachings are so salutary and powerful in people's lives, and why they have had this effect, and spread widely throughout many different eras and cultures and circumstances.

                    Going on from this point

                    None of this, of course, touches the reasons why I believe Christianity to be true, LOL! I have tried here simply to respond to your urgent concern. I believe the Gospel of Christ to be of vital, ultimate importance -- true, beautiful, life-giving, the source of goodness in the lives of individuals and civilizations, and of course I want you to see that this is so.

                    I emphasize "true": I believe the Gospel not because I think it does good -- although I know it does -- but because I am intellectually convinced ("rationally convinced") of its truth.

                    I can't go into any the reasons here: the post is already at the character limits, and I'm out of time! But try to keep your mind open to Christ, and seek God and the truth with your whole heart!

                    In friendship,
                    Scruffy Kid

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      yes yes i know I read a lot of the Bible. hmmm cover to cover might get a little boring/confusing plus if you read the gospel you can see they are all taking stories from each other....expect for John

                      anyway i wasnt saying that Christians simply belive in the historical Jesus. I just was responding to the "he changed my life" he is not simply a man. That was my point.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        scruffy kid you post looks amazing I will read tomorrow i need to go to bed its nearly 2 am here lol

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by cheekycritter View Post
                          yes yes i know I read a lot of the Bible. hmmm cover to cover might get a little boring/confusing plus if you read the gospel you can see they are all taking stories from each other....expect for John

                          anyway i wasnt saying that Christians simply belive in the historical Jesus. I just was responding to the "he changed my life" he is not simply a man. That was my point.
                          It can be laborious. Hopefully you'll give it the same treatment that you give your other readings.
                          Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.
                          C. S. Lewis

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by cheekycritter View Post
                            ...
                            Secondly, you mention the Jesus of 2000 years ago. Leaving the myth aside you can't know the real Jesus.
                            .....
                            I can also aruge that that Jesus has effected your life for psychological reasons and his simply part of white middle class life. But thats a different area I dont want to get into simply because this isnt my main question. But it links to the fact i don't belive you can really know the historical Jesus. Simply beacause he probably didn't lead such life the gospel writers wrote about.
                            ...
                            Thanks again
                            Your arguments are of course for your own benefit. I'm sure you are not meaning to be arrogant in your statements. As I stated, others are better suited to the discourse about mythology, so I don't intend to speak to that.

                            If Jesus affected my life for psychological reasons as you say, then I must tell you that He achieved what psychologists (and other religions) failed to do.

                            It is not the "historical Jesus" that affected my life. It is the living God who affected my life.

                            It seems also that you are looking at the myths that have been embraced by the traditions of man, and claimed as Christianity; these are not found in the Bible. If you want to know the real Jesus, don't look at Church dogma. Look to Him, as He is revealed in the Word. Of course to do this, you must take off your biased lenses.
                            Blessings,

                            Road Warrior


                            Proverbs 4:23
                            23 Guard your heart above all else,
                            for it determines the course of your life.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by cheekycritter View Post
                              Born of a Virgin
                              Only Son of God
                              Born of a stable/or cave
                              3 wise men
                              a Special star linked to him
                              Baptized in river, Baptist died soon after
                              12 Disciples
                              Performed Miracles
                              Tempted by Devil
                              Died on cross next to two thief's
                              In a tomb
                              Resurrected
                              Yeah, I watched Zeitgeist too.
                              Oh, and I've read Glenn Miller... Which is probably where you're getting a lot of your ideas (even if you don't realize it). Or maybe Massey...

                              ScruffyKid will get to the rest of the post... I feel like refuting these claims. There are certain claims I will group together.

                              #1 - Born of a virgin
                              #3 - Born of a stable/or cave
                              #4 - Three wise men
                              #5 - Special star linked to him

                              Horus was actually born in a swamp, not a stable or a cave. There were no wise men associated with his birth, and there was no star associated with his birth, either. Imaginative and false falsifications from Glenn Miller.

                              Let's consider the story of Horus' birth, please remember that pagan miracle births are filled with sexuality, why is this missing from the Christian birth narrative..?:

                              "But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it (hence the many tombs of Osiris tht exist in Egypt). The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..." [CANE:2:1702; emphasis mine]

                              No virgin birth, no stable or cave, no wise men, no special star. Completely and entirely false. Points 1, 3, 4 and 5 are void. Remember, your belief that Christianity is false, of which you're 99.9% certain, is based on this 'evidence'.

                              #2 - Only Son of God

                              Where is this in the Horus myth?

                              #6 - Baptized in a river, baptist died soon after


                              Horus was never baptized in any of the Horus myths.

                              #7 - Both had 12 disciples

                              Horus did not have 12 disciples, He had 4 semi-divine followers, titled heru-shemsu ("Followers of Horus"), and he had an unnumbered group of followers titled mesniu/mesnitu.

                              #8 - Both performed miracles

                              This is true; though the miracles were of vastly different scope and measure. This is to be expected considering the subject matter.

                              #9 - Tempted by the devil

                              Uhm... Where in the Horus myth (in any of them) is he tempted by the devil?

                              #10 - Died on a cross next to two theives

                              Where is this mentioned in the Horus myth?

                              #11 - Both put in a tomb

                              Where is this in the Horus myth?

                              #12 - Resurrected

                              Again, where is this in the Horus myth? (To to above five claims-including #2-you need not answer; you will find no such things in the Horus myth).

                              The above isn't common knowledge... Because it really isn't knowledge; it's almost entirely false, with the exception of the claim that both Jesus and Horus performed 'miracles', whatever it is we mean by the word miracle. The only reason such a view is still around is because of this thing called the 'internet' which has the grand ability to propagate misinformation faster than Orwell's fictional government in his monumental work 1984. You could go through all the myths of antiquity and you would find yourself in a similar situation. Now with this I wish to add a question--why do you expect of us to read the entire book of Horus before we make our judgments, while it's not required of you to read the entire Bible to make your judgments of Christianity? I would also recommend asking your professors these questions; but I doubt you'd come across any sort of worth while answer. They've been teaching this sort of misinformation since the late 1960's. Liberalism....

                              What has become of your certainty that Christianity is 99.9% false?

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