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Does OT Isreal = NT Church?

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  • Does OT Isreal = NT Church?

    Always wondered this. Seems to me to be the same thing, but pretty much no one agrees with me. I want to study it a little, so some different views from different people will give me a starting point, a point of reference. My own view might be skewed all by itself.

  • #2
    God's people in the OT were made up of believing Jews and converted Gentiles.
    They were called 'Israel'

    God's people in the NT are made up of believing Jews and converted Gentiles.
    They are called 'the church'
    The Matthew Never Knew
    The Knew Kingdom

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    • #3
      Covenant Nation

      I agree with Matthew and would like to add one more thing. Israel is the name given to the 12 tribes that came from Egypt, who also agreed to abide by the Covenant made at Mt. Sinai.

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      • #4
        As far as I see it Israel was Nation of people chosen by God.

        The church is made up People from many Nations chosen by God

        "Just my take on it"

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        • #5
          Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
          God's people in the OT were made up of believing Jews and converted Gentiles.
          They were called 'Israel'

          God's people in the NT are made up of believing Jews and converted Gentiles.
          They are called 'the church'
          So basically, believing Jews and believing Gentiles. All believers...

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          • #6
            Originally posted by beforHim View Post
            Always wondered this. Seems to me to be the same thing, but pretty much no one agrees with me. I want to study it a little, so some different views from different people will give me a starting point, a point of reference. My own view might be skewed all by itself.
            no. we are under a better covenant. this is where people get into relacement theology.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BroRog View Post
              I agree with Matthew and would like to add one more thing. Israel is the name given to the 12 tribes that came from Egypt, who also agreed to abide by the Covenant made at Mt. Sinai.
              we agree to the covenant on calvary, not sinai.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by beforHim View Post
                Always wondered this. Seems to me to be the same thing, but pretty much no one agrees with me. I want to study it a little, so some different views from different people will give me a starting point, a point of reference. My own view might be skewed all by itself.
                No, the Church is not Israel. Replacement theology is one of the most dangerous false doctrines that has ever been taught. It is singlehandedly responsible for the murder of millions of innocent Jews. The Church is not Israel. If you can understand the book of Revelation, you can plainly see that the Church is not Israel.

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                • #9
                  Singlehandedly responsible for the murder of millions of innocent Jews?

                  Come on now.

                  Anyways, nobody mentioned replacement theology. Jews weren't replaced. Gentiles were added to believing Jews.
                  The Matthew Never Knew
                  The Knew Kingdom

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
                    Singlehandedly responsible for the murder of millions of innocent Jews?

                    Come on now.

                    Anyways, nobody mentioned replacement theology. Jews weren't replaced. Gentiles were added to believing Jews.
                    romans 9-11 states they were cut out of the vine, partially blinded, unless they accept Jesus as their messiah they cannot get to Heaven. SO are the Jews you are referring to doing that or are they still good as pertaining to the sinai covenant?

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                    • #11
                      I think it is important to keep the distinction between "Israel" as a corporate entity, and a "Jew" who is an individual. I believe Paul's point is to say, "Israel - the corporate entity" has been partially hardened, not "Jews" as individuals.

                      In my view, the Olive Tree is neither Israel or the Church; it's the New Covenant. The New Covenant belongs to Israel as a corporate entity as it says in Jeremiah 31, but individuals -- both Jews and Gentiles are being grafted on to that Covenant in view of their faith in Jesus.

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                      • #12
                        There is only one program for both Jew and Gentile, the death of Jesus on the cross. There will be only one body of redeemed people who are saved prior to Christ’s second coming. This will include Old and New Testament saints. “People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.” (Luke 13:29). And again, “When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, ‘Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ ” (Matthew 8:10-12).

                        (I should clarify before going any further that I am totally opposed to Replacement Theology.)

                        There is only one group, Israel with the Gentiles grafted in, both dependant on the same root, that root being Abraham’s faith being credited to him as “righteousness”, via the death of Christ on the cross, both parties, Israel and the Gentiles, being merged into one set of believers.

                        The “remnant of Israel” from throughout history IS the Olive Tree. There has always been a “remnant”, as God told Elijah when he ran from Jezebel in I Kings 19:18 – “I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.” There was also a remnant in Jesus’ day which included the disciples plus His other followers, there is a remnant today, and there will be one at the end of the Tribulation. There has never “not” been a remnant. It will include the Jews who are saved at the 2nd Coming when they see “Him whom they have pierced”. Israel has never been set aside. They are still God’s chosen people. God still wants them to come into fellowship with Him even at this very moment, but since Christ has been revealed as the Passover Lamb, the procedures set down by Moses are outdated and no longer necessary. Jesus, the ultimate High Priest, has offered a sacrifice superior to those offered at the Jerusalem Temple so that no further sacrifice is needed for obtaining salvation. The Jews still have an open door in front of them just as they did in 69 AD. They just have to individually choose to walk through it, just as they could have in 69 AD. The way to walk through the door is to recognize Jesus as their national Messiah and as their personal Savior, which is precisely what we are called to do – to call on the name of the Lord. That includes Jesus as the Messiah and our Savior.

                        The destruction of 70 AD had a key result in God’s program of redemption: The Temple was destroyed, making carrying on with the Mosaic sacrifices impossible. That alone should give any devout Jew pause, that God would allow the destruction of Israel’s ability to carry out what they thought was His will. If God allowed that practice to be destroyed, then it must not be His will anymore, hmmmm? Which just goes along perfectly with the fact of Jesus having made the perfect, once-for-all sacrifice. So Israel still has an open door in front of them. Unfortunately, they won’t step through it as a nation until the end of the Tribulation. Some of them are stepping through it today, but most will hold out until they’re either dead or facing certain annihilation in Petra/Bosrah at the hands of the Antichrist/Mahdi, at which time all the teachings they will have been hearing from the Two Witnesses along with various other sources will finally get through their hard heads and they will finally acknowledge their mistake and say “Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord.”, resulting in the 2nd Coming.

                        Now, in the meantime, we Gentiles are being grafted into the Olive Tree while Jewish branches are being broken off due to “unbelief”. We are part of the Church that was originally an Israeli organism.

                        The Greek word translated “Church” in the Bible is “ekklesia”. It means “a called out assembly.” It is found 112 times in the Greek New Testament. In all 112 cases, except Matthew 16:18, Acts 7:38, 1 Corinthians 10:32, Ephesians 1:22, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 5:23-32, Colossians 1:18,24, Hebrews 2:12, Hebrews 12:23, “ekklesia” refers to local churches. Of these few exceptions, one of them refers specifically to Israel in the Old Testament (Acts 7:37), and another is a quote of an Old Testament prophecy about the Church (Hebrews 2:12).

                        Acts 7:37-38
                        37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
                        38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
                        (KJV)

                        Dispensationalists typically define the “Church” as a unique body which began on the day of Pentecost, completely separate from the nation of Israel. Yet, in Stephen’s defense before the Sanhedrin, he referred to Israel after the exodus as “the Church in the wilderness.” Why would Stephen violate the supposed dispensational divide by referring to Israel as “the Church?”

                        Most of the early Christians could not read Hebrew. They used a Greek translation of the Old Testament made by 70 Jewish scribes about 200 years before Christ. The early Christians and Jews called it “The Version of the Seventy.” Today it is referred to as the “Septuagint” (meaning 70) or simply by the Roman numerals “LXX.” In the first century, the Greek LXX was the common Bible of the Jewish synagogues and the early churches, although the Jews of Judea primarily used the Hebrew Scriptures. The Apostles frequently referred to the LXX and quoted it extensively in the New Testament. In fact, the New Testament writers quoted the LXX more frequently than the Hebrew Old Testament. This is because it was written in the common Greek and could be read by the average believer of that time. Copies were plentiful and relatively cheap, while copies of the Hebrew Scriptures were usually only found at the synagogues within Israel itself and were moreover very expensive.

                        In Acts 7:37, the reason Stephen referred to Israel as “the Church” was because of his familiarity with the LXX. He was referring to passages like the following.

                        Deuteronomy 9:10 (LXX)
                        10 The Lord gave me two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God. On them were all the commandments the Lord proclaimed to you on the mountain out of the fire, on the day of the Church. (“ekklesia”)

                        Deuteronomy 18:16 (LXX)
                        16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the Church (“ekklesia”) when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

                        There are many more cases in the LXX where the whole assembly of Israel, when they were gathered to worship, is called “the Church” or the “ekklesia” in the LXX. In fact, the Greek word “ekklesia” (Church) is found 73 times in the LXX Old Testament, almost as many times as in the Greek New Testament. So, the early Christians who spoke Greek had this background as their understanding of the word. They saw the “ekklesia” of the Old Testament as being the same organism as the “ekklesia” of the New Testament of which they were a part and had been “grafted in”. And we are the continuation of that even today at this moment! It is all one assembly of the remnant of those being called out to salvation by faith in God’s sacrifice on our behalf. Those of us today are fortunate enough to know that this sacrifice’s name is Jesus Christ.

                        So we Gentiles who are being grafted in are not a separate group in God’s program of redemption, but are one with the others, all under the death of Christ on the cross on our behalf. We will have distinctive national identities during the Millennium, such as Jews occupying the land given to Abraham in the Abrahamic Covenant, and everybody else, the redeemed Gentiles, having the rest of the world, but we will all be citizens of the same Kingdom of God under Christ’s rule from His throne in Jerusalem and Ezekiel’s Temple.

                        I should clarify that this is certainly NOT Replacement Theology. Replacement Theology says Israel has been cast aside and has no place in God’s plans. Quite the opposite is true. Were it not for Israel, we Gentiles would have no place in God’s plans. Without Israel, we are nothing. “You do not support the root, but the root supports you.” – Romans 11:18
                        ----------------------------------------------
                        When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Reynolds357 View Post
                          No, the Church is not Israel. Replacement theology is one of the most dangerous false doctrines that has ever been taught. It is singlehandedly responsible for the murder of millions of innocent Jews. The Church is not Israel. If you can understand the book of Revelation, you can plainly see that the Church is not Israel.
                          The church is spiritual Israel. Literal Israel is a divorced woman who worships false gods. Nothing justifies murder but the doctrine is true whether called "replacement theology" or another term.

                          The people of God are branches on a certain olive tree. When the NT came, those who did not believe in Christ were removed from that tree and those that did believe were allowed to remain. In addition, branches from other olive trees (gentiles) were taken and added to this special tree. This tree is Israel, the people of God, but now it is not based on race but on the heart and Spirit.

                          Without Christ you are a gentile in God's eyes. "those who are of the flesh, these are not the children of God" as Paul clearly teaches.

                          Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

                          Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
                          1Peter 3:15
                          (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by matthew94 View Post
                            Jews weren't replaced. Gentiles were added to believing Jews.
                            Unbelieving Jews were replaced by believing gentiles. That's where the replacement part comes in "replacement theology".
                            1Peter 3:15
                            (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BroRog View Post
                              In my view, the Olive Tree is neither Israel or the Church; it's the New Covenant.
                              The problem with that is that Israel is often referred to as an olive tree in scripture and then we have this special olive tree that only contains branches that are Christian whether they are original Jewish branches or added on gentile branches. It is clear that the tree was and still is Israel but is composed of all races. No where in scripture is the new Testament, or new covenant or any agreement or contract refereed to as an olive tree.
                              1Peter 3:15
                              (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

                              Comment

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