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  • define died completely

    In another thread, it was said that when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil,
    "At that moment man died completely.".
    So I asked, "define 'completely dead'."
    Instead of an answer, I received a change of words.
    "apart from God." "He died Spiritually"
    I also asked "where might I find this in Genesis?"
    They said
    "It extrapolated from the text and from Scripture."
    Now, I know this has been discussed along with sin nature but I've never heard a very good explanation w/ scripture, so I thought we'd single out just this one concept and leave sin nature and isms out of it. You know, just keep it simple. Surely such an big and important doctrine can plainly be found and easily confirmed, right? I no longer buy doctrines that have to be extrapolated.
    Last edited by -SEEKING-; Sep 16th 2009, 01:46 AM. Reason: removed link

  • #2
    Originally posted by Sirus View Post
    In another thread it was said that when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil,
    "At that moment man died completely.".
    So I asked, "define 'completely dead'."
    Instead of an answer, I received a change of words.
    "apart from God." "He died Spiritually"
    I also asked "where might I find this in Genesis?"
    They said
    "It extrapolated from the text and from Scripture."
    Now, I know this has been discussed along with sin nature but I've never heard a very good explanation w/ scripture, so I thought we'd single out just this one concept and leave sin nature and isms out of it. You know, just keep it simple. Surely such an big and important doctrine can plainly be found and easily confirmed, right? I no longer buy doctrines that have to be extrapolated.
    How about dead as a doornail?
    Last edited by -SEEKING-; Sep 16th 2009, 01:46 AM. Reason: removed link

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    • #3
      Well, as I said in the other thread,

      I hear people hem and haw all the time and say 'well not really dead, just broken' or whatever, but 'completely'? Really? C'mon! How does man continue to communicate and have a relationship with God and accomplish His will then? Seems to me, if man were dead as a doornail, this would be impossible.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Sirus View Post
        Well, as I said in the other thread,

        I hear people hem and haw all the time and say 'well not really dead, just broken' or whatever, but 'completely'? Really? C'mon! How does man continue to communicate and have a relationship with God and accomplish His will then? Seems to me, if man were dead as a doornail, this would be impossible.
        I agree 100%. I think dead in the Bible has more definitions than any other word. lol

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        • #5
          That man would die a physical death and be returned to the ground. This was actually a gracious provision. God could have left us to live forever in this sinful world until the 2nd coming of Christ. This death is also a spiritual death. When we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior do we become alive in the Spirit, otherwise we would remain dead. I'm not sure if that's the answer you're looking for but it's the only one I have.
          Find rest, O my soul, in God alone; my hope comes from Him.
          Psalm 62:5
          sigpic

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
            I agree 100%. I think dead in the Bible has more definitions than any other word. lol
            Yes, but I'm only asking about one.
            the day you eat....you shall surely die

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Moxie View Post
              This death is also a spiritual death. When we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior do we become alive in the Spirit, otherwise we would remain dead. I'm not sure if that's the answer you're looking for but it's the only one I have.
              So Adam had the Spirit (alive) and when he sinned the Spirit was no longer in him (dead) in a permanent indwelling? Is that what you mean?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Sirus View Post
                Yes, but I'm only asking about one.
                the day you eat....you shall surely die
                I know I was kidding with you. I agree with you, it means physically dead.

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                • #9
                  This is the way i had it explained to me years ago by a Greek scholar. He said the Greek would say it this way:
                  Genesis 2
                  16 - The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
                  17 - but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it, dying you will surely die."



                  Adam DID die the day he ate - he died spiritually and BECAUSE he died spiritually, he eventually died physically.


                  Hope that helps a bit.
                  V
                  I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
                  - Mahatma Gandhi



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                  • #10
                    Vhayes, that doesn't tell me what 'died spiritually' means.
                    What you were told is correct. The Hebrew for 'shall surely die' is die! die! Translated is 'dying die!' or to understand, 'dying you shall die'. Hebrew scholars say it and translations actually say it.

                    However, he died eventually because he sinned and was separated from the tree of life, not because he died spiritually. The text says nothing of the sort. If it is true he died spiritually, it is also because he sinned. None of this addresses what spiritual death means, but we may be making progress.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                      I know I was kidding with you. I agree with you, it means physically dead.
                      I thought so, but wasn't sure.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Vhayes View Post
                        This is the way i had it explained to me years ago by a Greek scholar. He said the Greek would say it this way:
                        Genesis 2
                        16 - The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
                        17 - but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it, dying you will surely die."
                        V
                        BTW; you can find the same here
                        1Ki 2:37 For it shall be, that on the day thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die: thy blood shall be upon thine own head.

                        1Ki 2:42 And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.
                        Notice he did not die the day he passed over. His death became certain that day. Same with Adam -physically.

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                        • #13
                          It was the "beginning" of death - a done deal - a sealed and delivered sentence.

                          But I still think Adam died spiritually - otherwise why would Jesus tell us that we must be "born again" of the Spirit?
                          I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
                          - Mahatma Gandhi



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                          • #14
                            What does that mean? What was the difference in Adam -before and after- he sinned?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Butch5 View Post
                              I know I was kidding with you. I agree with you, it means physically dead.
                              I believe in 'spiritual death' per say, I just don't believe we are born in it. I believe it is a process, just as physical death is a process. We can see the progression in Romans 1.
                              Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
                              Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
                              Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
                              Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
                              Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
                              Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
                              Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
                              Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
                              Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
                              Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
                              Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
                              Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
                              Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
                              Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
                              Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
                              This makes no sense if man is born dead. Ephesians 2 also describes a result of sin -dead, not a cause of sin -dead. It doesn't say born, but rather shows a life of sin after the spirit and god of this world and therefore dead.

                              So what I would say spiritual death is -just to use the term, is someone that has rejected God to the point of being given over to a reprobate mind. No one is born that way, as we can clearly see and know that no scripture says otherwise. You can't be born dead, then hold truth, be darkened, know God, and reject these things.

                              So what else could spiritually dead mean? No indwelling Spirit?

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