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  • #46
    Originally posted by ACCM View Post
    Exactly...... Still I say.... do you as a Christian know what the Song of Moses is about??

    These Jews that are coming through the tribulation will get to accept Yeshua as Messiah during the Tribulation See above.... these Jews will accept Yeshua as Messiah during the tribulation

    Nothing in Revelation 15 tells us 'when' those people were saved.
    Revelation 15 doesn't mention 'the tribulation', nor does it tell us when these people lived on the earth.

    All people, living on the earth, from any race and ethnic background, have the opportunity to accept Jesus as Christ, anytime.

    Peter told the Jews of the 1st century, that salvation was available to them immediately, and to their children after them as well.

    Sorry, but I don't buy into the "group salvation postponement" view. Anyone can accept Christ any day, while the day is yet the day.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Toymom View Post
      It is important to make the time to read it.
      Do you have time to watch tv? read the newspaper? browse the internet? look at a message board? then you have time to read the entire Bible. It is just a matter of priorities - not time.
      My point was that I don't have time today to read through the entire Old Testament. In fact, I have read the entire Bible several times. I was telling daughter that she needed to spell out her answer rather than waste Christian Knight's time with a suggestion to "look in the Old Testament" without even giving him a clue where to look.
      ----------------------------------------------
      When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

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      • #48
        Revelation 15

        3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

        4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.




        2 Songs
        1 People of God (saints)

        Jews and Gentiles sang the one song of Moses after being delivered through the Red Sea in Exodus 15.


        Exodus 12


        37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children


        38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.


        39 And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual.


        As they sang the song of Moses, both Jews and Gentilles together in Exodus 15 to the Lord, praising Him that He had delivered them by the Lord's passover, the blood of the sacrificial passover lamb.

        At that first passover yhey killed the lamb in Egypt. At its death its blood was applied that caused them to pass through the sea. But before they could feast with the Lord they had to keep the passover feast. God had told them that they would have to go a three-days journey into the wilderness away from Egypt So each of the familiesmlies of both Gentiles and Jews, carried their slain passover lamb with them on their flight from Egyppt, through the Red Sea. And when they came into the wilderness over on the other side, they sang the song of Moses which prophecied the Coming of the Holy One of Israel, the Holy Lamb of God, they sang the song of the Lamb


        Exodus 12


        43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:


        44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.


        45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.


        47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.


        48 And when [color=blue]a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD[/font], let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


        49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.


        50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.


        51 And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.


        Modern-day Jews credit Moses with bringing the children of Israel out of Egypt, through the Red Sea. But looking back at Exodus 12 and what Moses instructed them to do before crossing through the Red Sea, over to the other side, we see a different picture:

        48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


        Remember Moses said to Pharoah, "Let my people go." Go where?

        Not to Canaan. 12 times God commanded Moses to tell Pharoah, "Let my people go."

        Ex 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people Go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.

        Ex 7:16 And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people Go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear.

        Ex 8:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, Go unto Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people Go, that they may serve me.

        Ex 8:8 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, Entreat the LORD, that he may take away the frogs from me, and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may do sacrifice unto the LORD.

        Ex 8:20 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh; lo, he cometh forth to the water; and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me.

        Ex 8:21 Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.

        Ex 9:1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people Go, that they may serve me.

        Ex 9:13 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people Go, that they may serve me.

        Ex 9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?

        Ex 10:3 And Moses and Aaron came in unto Pharaoh, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me? let my people Go, that they may serve me.

        Ex 10:4 Else, if thou refuse to let my people go, behold, to morrow will I bring the locusts into thy coast:

        Ex 34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O LORD, let my LORD, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.


        And when the true Lamb of God came in the first century, they sang a new song, both Jews and Gentiles together! Those He redeemed sang a new long, the song of the Lamb that only the redeemed can sing.


        Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;


        Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.


        We have thought that the children of Israel cried out to God to deliver them out of Egypt and into their inheritance. But as we read the the account in Genesis, we find out how Israel and his 12 sons ended up in Israel to begin with.

        Joseph tells his brothers in Gen. 45 when he made himself known to them and for them to go to Israel who is at that time in the Promised land of Canaan:


        7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

        8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

        9 Haste ye, and go up to my father, and say unto him, Thus saith thy son Joseph, God hath made me lord of all Egypt: come down unto me, tarry not:

        10 And thou shalt dwell in the land of Goshen, and thou shalt be near unto me, thou, and thy children, and thy children's children, and thy flocks, and thy herds, and all that thou hast:

        11 And there will I nourish thee; for yet there are five years of famine; lest thou, and thy household, and all that thou hast, come to poverty.

        12 And, behold, your eyes see, and the eyes of my brother Benjamin, that it is my mouth that speaketh unto you.

        13 And ye shall tell my father of all my glory in Egypt, and of all that ye have seen; and ye shall haste and bring down my father hither.

        14 And he fell upon his brother Benjamin's neck, and wept; and Benjamin wept upon his neck.

        15 Moreover he kissed all his brethren, and wept upon them: and after that his brethren talked with him.

        16 And the fame thereof was heard in Pharaoh's house, saying, Joseph's brethren are come: and it pleased Pharaoh well, and his servants.

        17 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, Say unto thy brethren, This do ye; lade your beasts, and go, get you unto the land of Canaan;

        18 And take your father and your households, and come unto me: and I will give you the good of the land of Egypt, and ye shall eat the fat of the land.

        19 Now thou art commanded, this do ye; take you wagons out of the land of Egypt for your little ones, and for your wives, and bring your father, and come.

        20 Also regard not your stuff; for the good of all the land of Egypt is yours.

        21 And the children of Israel did so: and Joseph gave them wagons, according to the commandment of Pharaoh, and gave them provision for the way.

        22 To all of them he gave each man changes of raiment; but to Benjamin he gave three hundred pieces of silver, and five changes of raiment.

        Pharoah is not sending them away from Egypt. He is sending an invitation to Israel to come live forever in Egypt in their own kingdom within his kingdom in Goshen, sectioned off from the other inhabitants of Egypt.

        23 And to his father he sent after this manner; ten asses laden with the good things of Egypt, and ten she asses laden with corn and bread and meat for his father by the way.

        24 So he sent his brethren away, and they departed: and he said unto them, See that ye fall not out by the way.

        25 And they went up out of Egypt, and came into the land of Canaan unto Jacob their father,

        26 And told him, saying, Joseph is yet alive, and he is governor over all the land of Egypt. And Jacob's heart fainted, for he believed them not.

        27 And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived:

        28 And Israel said, It is enough; Joseph my son is yet alive: I will go and see him before I die.

        Gen 45:10 And thou shalt dwell in the land of Goshen, and thou shalt be near unto me, thou, and thy children, and thy children's children, and thy flocks, and thy herds, and all that thou hast:

        Gen 46:28 And he sent Judah before him unto Joseph, to direct his face unto Goshen; and they came into the land of Goshen.

        Gen 46:29 And Joseph made ready his chariot, and went up to meet Israel his father, to Goshen, and presented himself unto him; and he fell on his neck, and wept on his neck a good while.

        Gen 46:34 That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians.

        Gen 47:1 Then Joseph came and told Pharaoh, and said, My father and my brethren, and their flocks, and their herds, and all that they have, are come out of the land of Canaan; and, behold, they are in the land of Goshen.

        Gen 47:4 They said moreover unto Pharaoh, For to sojourn in the land are we come; for thy servants have no pasture for their flocks; for the famine is sore in the land of Canaan: now therefore, we pray thee, let thy servants dwell in the land of Goshen.

        Gen 47:6 The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell; in the land of Goshen let them dwell: and if thou knowest any men of activity among them, then make them rulers over my cattle.

        Gen 47:27 And Israel dwelt in the land of Egypt, in the country of Goshen; and they had possessions therein, and grew, and multiplied exceedingly.

        Gen 50:8 And all the house of Joseph, and his brethren, and his father's house: only their little ones, and their flocks, and their herds, they left in the land of Goshen.


        As we see, the children of Israel were given the freedom in Goshen to to grow sheep for offering the blood, flesh and skin up to their God so He would keep them blessed materially with much wealth and possessions and the uncircised Egyptians within Egypt wouldn't stop God's blessings from being poured out on them. There kings of Egypt from that Pharoah to his son and his son't descendents were very good to Israel with having much favor from him because of Joseph.

        Then as we turn to the 1st Chapter of Exodus, we find a major change:

        6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.

        7 And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them.

        8 Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.

        9 And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:

        10 Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land.

        11 Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.

        12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were grieved because of the children of Israel.

        13 And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigor:

        14 And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, in mortar, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigor.

        That Pharoah removed them from their kingdom and placed them in kingdom. And when he did, he took away their worship of God by offering animal sacrifices by the eye of faith in the true Lamb of God of which their little lambs sacrifice were shadows of that removed the shadows when their Messiah, Christ Jesus, the true substance, would become the true substance of the shadow, the One pure offering of God. The same kind of faith as their father Abraham, Isaac, Israel and his sons.

        So what they were crying out for was for God to bring them back into their land Goshen, which was a 3 days journey Egypt so they could keep the feast of the Lord.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by calidog View Post
          Judas knew what he was doing and Jesus held him responsible for what he did, but as for the rest Jesus later said:

          Luk 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
          Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
          This is the Roman's IMO.

          1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
          1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


          Basically they would not have crucified him had they known that he was truly the Son of God and that killing him actually helped him to overcome Satan and therefore themselves.

          I don't believe this applies to the Jewish leadership because of how harshly Christ spoke to them:


          John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
          John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
          John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
          John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
          John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
          John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
          John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
          John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
          John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
          John 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
          John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
          1Peter 3:15
          (BBE) But give honour to Christ in your hearts as your Lord; and be ready at any time when you are questioned about the hope which is in you, to give an answer in the fear of the Lord and without pride;

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